A 232 year old chapter

[Valkyrion]

Cheers everydobby so far.

 

I won't go down the warp route, but I do like the over confident and ambitious angle and appreciate the unlikelihood of much in the way of codex deviation beyond that already displayed by their parent chapter (if any).

 

That said, I do want the faster vehicles, though that might even need to be explained away, and I quite like the idea of a purist theme with plenty of chaplains about, spreading their hatred of everything throughout the chapter.

 

I suppose it's a fair assumption that the captain seconded from the parent chapter would become chapter master, and that 200 years is fine to have him still alive?

[Brother Tyler]

Whether or not the training cadres form the core of the new Chapter has been a subject of debate. All we can say at this point is that it is possible. It's also possible that the training cadre returns to the parent Chapter after having trained the core of the new Chapter.

[Valkyrion]

Whether or not the training cadres form the core of the new Chapter has been a subject of debate. All we can say at this point is that it is possible. It's also possible that the training cadre returns to the parent Chapter after having trained the core of the new Chapter.

If the training cadre returns to the parent chapter, by what process are new chapter master and captains selected?

Or would the cadre remain with the chapter for a term of service beyond the initial training, say 100 years or something, by which time the new marines have reached a level to run themselves?

[Brother Tyler]

Understanding that this is all speculative...

 

With the method whereby the training cadre will return to the parent Chapter, the assumption is that the core officers of the new Chapter will be the most senior of the new battle-brothers, presumably those from the "first batch" (so to speak), but focusing on those that qualify. How long the training cadre remains is anyone's guess, but it would probably only be long enough for the new officers to take control and establish themselves as the true leaders of the Chapter. It's possible (though by no means certain) that the methods by which the new officers are chosen will become part of the sustained process, and this will be informed both by the traditions of the parent Chapter as well as by the personality of the new Chapter, especially as influenced by whatever traditions and character the recruiting world of the new Chapter impart.

 

The bottom line is that we really don't know, giving you room to be creative.

[Valkyrion]

Okay, so it seems I have two options - leave the training cadre in place, becoming senior officers and a more or less facsimile of their parent chapter OR eager and ambitious 1st ever chapter master keen to make his mark on his chapter to run as he sees fit, whilst keeping with the overall theme of the parent chapter, albeit with perhaps more room for slight divergence depending on the personality of the chapter master.

[Leonaides]

You can just as easily have the Commander from the parent chapter having his own personal interpretation on an aspect of his chapters original structure that he personally feels differently about or battle-experience has altered his opinion on an aspect of doctrine (for example, imagine the differences between a new chapter trained and led by Uriel Ventris during his 'rebellious' phase where he went against Codex standard doctrine to a chapter led and formed by Captain Agamemenon (Ultras 1st Comp) - Uriel's chapter would probably be more willing to use unorthadox tactics, which may be advantageous against some enemies (Nids or Orks where battles are likely to be less structured, but may fair less well against a well-drilled and planned enemy (Eldar/other Marines/Renegade Guard/etc who can exploit their strategic superiority).

[Valkyrion]

Necessary deletion, sorry about that! I've found some information that changes things a bit!

[Captain Juan Juarez]

I, personally, subscribe to the notion that key members of the Training Cadre would remain as part of the command structure of the new Chapter. With the Captain remaining as Chapter Master, along with key positions filled like head Apothecary, Chaplain and Techmarine.

 

To me this makes sense because there must be occasions when there are too many candidates for senior leadership positions and the foundation of a new Chapter enables that advancement and gives a strong foundation for said new Chapter.

 

Although, on the negative side, it might be hard to overcome the indoctrination Marines are subjected to when joining their Chapter.

[Gripharius]

I think the training cadre return-vs-stay issue can be handled by good writing.  It's not clearly decided by the canon fluff, so just give your characters reasons to do what they do.

 

If you want the parent marines to stay, then note that they developed an affinity for their new brothers, or that they relished the opportunity to command their own Chapter rather than return to duty under their old command structure. 

 

If you want the parent marines to go back, then indicate that they were recalled under orders from their previous Chapter, or that they were selected for Deathwatch duty, or that they just longed to return to the brothers they had previously fought alongside for so many decades. 

 

There are any number of reasons or ways you can explain why the traiing cadre either stays or goes.  And it doesn't have to be all or nothing.  Maybe a Chaplain from the parent Chapter stays to be Master of Sanctity of the new Chapter, but the Chapter Master is recalled to the parent Chapter.

 

The "new" officers of the new Chapter would be installed by whatever method you feel befits your Chapter.  Maybe the departing Chapter Master names his successor.  Maybe the seniormost member of the new Chapter is selected by his peers to be the new Chapter Master.  Its up to you, as long as you explain it in a way that makes sense. 

[Octavulg]

Why would they be included in the roster of the new Chapter at all? 

[Gripharius]

Liber 3:16

[Octavulg]

"And behold, Octavulg did say, "Thou art not the boss of me," and there was much rejoicing"? 

[Gripharius]

"Because ye olde fluff doth sayeth so."

[Ecritter]

"Because ye olde fluff doth sayeth so."

Where?

[Gripharius]

In the... uh.. fluff... ?

[Ecritter]

Nope, or not in all, some say one ... some the other ... some nothing at all.

[Gripharius]

 

Nope, or not in all, some say one ... some the other ... some nothing at all.

That was actually my original point.  Its not clear in the fluff so you can go either way.  The rest was just messing with Octavulg.

[Leonaides]

Dont mess with the Octavulg... its like prodding a big grumpy bear with a hangover...

[Captain Juan Juarez]

Ah.. Derailment and Ambiguousness... Fun times.

[Valkyrion]

Having tried to find concrete fluff about it in all the previous marine dex and IA articles, I can't find anything anywhere that suggests a new chapter includes marines from another chapter.

 

I want the idea to be true, but I honestly can't find it.

[Brother Tyler]

The only situations in the canon where I've found the members of the parent Chapter remaining with the new Chapter are the 2nd Founding (nature of that founding - the Legions were broken apart), the Sons of Medusa (outcasts from the Successors of the Iron Hands Legion, followers of the Moirae Schism that left their parent Chapters to form the Sons of Medusa), and the amalgamated Chapters created from two or more reduced Chapters (none are named in the lore and, as Octavulg pointed out, this situation only appears to have been mentioned once during 3rd edition). The lore doesn't exclude the possibility of the members of the parent Chapter remaining, but it doesn't explicitly support it, either.

 

In the absence of explicit exclusion, however, I suggest that you go with it if that's what you want to do. Personally, it seems like a logical thing. Some of my earlier DIYs followed this exact method, with a cadre of experienced Space Marines leading a new Chapter. I've used it in my Venerators/Venerators of Korumani/Angels of Veneration DIY (in the Dark Angels forum). We've seen a lot of other DIYs by other players here in Liber Astartes, too, so you shouldn't receive any flak for the idea (except, possibly, from those that adhere to a highly restrictive set of personal rules regarding what is and is not possible in the game universe).

[Gripharius]

Having tried to find concrete fluff about it in all the previous marine dex and IA articles, I can't find anything anywhere that suggests a new chapter includes marines from another chapter.

 

I want the idea to be true, but I honestly can't find it.

 

Have you found anything that definitively says the cadre returns to its parent Chapter?  It seems pretty ambiguous to me, so I think you can do what you like.  As I stated before, I think you can justify it either way.

[Octavulg]

The Flame Falcons don't seem to have been lead by members of another chapter. But they're Cursed Founding, so that'd make sense. Still, it suggests that the other method is possible (even if it makes significantly less sense, IMO).

Imperial Armour 9 offers some insights:

The Fire Angels had a "initial command and training structure drawn from several Ultramarines successor chapters". That might suggest that chapter X provides the actual commanders, while other chapters may provide supporting officers who return home once things are running smoothly.

The Marines Errant are described as being "drawn" from the Eagle Warriors' ranks.

Less than a tenth of chapters are White Scars in origin per IA 10 at 64. "Endemic biogenetic difficulties" are blamed (this isn't relevant, I'm just writing it down so I remember it later).

Though honestly, the number of grammatical errors, lousy writing and stupid things in those books makes me want to completely ignore them a lot of the time.

So most official mentions lean toward training cadres returning home. It just seems less logical in many ways (yeah, we'll make this new guy Chapter Master, not this seasoned veteran Captain of 200 years' experience).

[Gripharius]

 

So most official mentions lean toward training cadres returning home. It just seems less logical in many ways (yeah, we'll make this new guy Chapter Master, not this seasoned veteran Captain of 200 years' experience). 

I'm going to keep arguing both sides of this because I think either way is fine.

 

Why would it even be called a "training cadre" if it was intended to be the future leadership of the new Chapter?  It would be a "founding cadre" or a "leadership cadre".  Its called a "training cadre" because it trains the new Chapter up and then bashs a champagne bottle over its head and lets it set sail for points unknown, sniffing back tears of pride, before tromping wearily back home to resume its boring former life.

 

Because going back to being Captain of the 7th Company and generic Chaplain number #5 would be so much more "meh" than being the first and founding Chapter Master and Master of Sanctity of a new Chapter.

 

The innate, thoroughly-brainwashed-in bonds of brotherhood with your original Chapter brothers that you fought, bled and died alongside for decades, even centuries... versus the lure of being eternally immortalized as the founder and first __________ of a new Chapter that you build and train up from nothing with your own blood, sweat and personally-administered beatings.

 

See?  It works either way.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Octavulg]

I figured it was called a training cadre because it did all the training. Though since it's a fan term in any case, the definition is a bit immaterial.

Personally, I think staying works much better than going back. Going back just seems to be the way GW wants it to work for some reason.