A 232 year old chapter

[Messor]

Where do we see use of the term "training cadre" in official works? It's not something I've looked for, but thinking about it, I've only seen it here on the B&C.

 

I also prefer to think it can(and should) go both ways, if only because it seems like a pointless door to be closing. As long as an IA isn't hinging on what the training cadre does when training is "done"(not the case here, at least), it really isn't going to have that big of an impact.

 

edit: What in particular makes you think that's what GW favors, Octavulg? I didn't get that impression from the official quotes that appeared here.

[Gripharius]

I don't know if "training cadre" has ever been used in any official or canon capacity. 

 

 

I also prefer to think it can(and should) go both ways, if only because it seems like a pointless door to be closing. As long as an IA isn't hinging on what the training cadre does when training is "done"(not the case here, at least), it really isn't going to have that big of an impact.

This.
 

[Octavulg]

Two things. First, because of the three official examples, the two that have any clarity would seem to lean toward it.

 

Second, because modern GW is incompetent, and thus the less logical option is to be preferred. These are the people who packed eight foundings into the space of a few dozen years (or less, really).

[Brother Tyler]

The reality is that the few examples that have been given lead us to infer that training cadres (our own term to describe the method) are a method that has been used. There is no evidence that implies that this is the only method, however. It's completely possible that some Chapters created in the 3rd and later foundings have had a core drawn from an older Chapter ("older" relatively speaking - a 25th founding Chapter is older than a 26th founding Chapter).

 

Realistically, whether your Chapter uses the training cadre or the core (again, a term I just made up) method will probably be largely irrelevant unless the Chapter's founding is the defining aspect of the Chapter. In most cases, the founding will be a minor element compared to the Chapter's battle history and accomplishments.

[Messor]

Octavulg, on 24 Apr 2013 - 16:48, said:

Two things. First, because of the three official examples, the two that have any clarity would seem to lean toward it.

Do you mean the Flame Falcons, Fire Angels, and Marines Errant?

 

I don't know, the only impression I got from those was where the cadre came from, rather than what became of them. Though I do interpret things strangely from time to time.

[Valkyrion]

Cool, so the answer is 'yeah but no but yeah but no'!

If it can really be whatever I want it to be, does it even have to be mentioned? The only time I could mention the founding chapter in any way could be when describing where their geneseed comes from.

Also, as an aside, is the IA9 and 10 writing style agreeable here, or is really full IA's that are promoted?

Oh, and finally - do I stop this IA before the Necrons kill them, or include their destruction? If I include the Necrons, at which 'chapter' do I put them in? Origins?

[Brother Tyler]

Yes, it can be whatever you want. Unless the "founding fathers" are a defining aspect of the Chapter (as in the case of the Sons of Medusa) it probably doesn't even really matter and doesn't need to be mentioned except in passing.

 

Yes, the Imperial Armour format of articles is completely acceptable. The Index Astartes format receives the most attention because it provides very good range of information, but the Imperial Armour format works just as well when you like the variant format. Which one you choose is completely up to you.

 

On your last, do you mean that the Necrons destroy the DIY Chapter in question? Or are you using the amalgamation concept and having the Necrons destroy one of the Chapters that gets amalgamated? If the latter, then your amalgamated DIY will come after the 26th founding (the Necron menace began to re-emerge after the last founding, except in some rare cases where tome worlds awoke early, though they weren't identified as Necrons). Alternately, are you pushing the timeline forward to a point where a 27th founding takes place? It's completely possible that amalgamations aren't considered true foundings and that Chapters created in such a fashion aren't designated as having come from any of the foundings.

[Valkyrion]

The idea is to flesh out these guys http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Emperor%27s_Swords_(Bellicas)#.UXj1AaI3tkI so by 970.M41 they are destroyed by the Necrons (hence 232 years old), so there's no amalgamation going on, just a quick turnaround of birth to death.

 

The fact that they were killed by Necrons is the chapter's 'gimmick' and the only reason for their existence - GW invented them to be killed - so in my head that is the most important aspect of the chapter. However, I don't know if the IA should read like an autopsy, all in the past tense with references to their destruction throughout, or whether it should be written from a point of view in 969.M41, where I ignore the Necrons completely because they haven't happened yet, or even not have it as an IA at all but more like an Inquisition report on the demise of the chapter written from the point of view of a neutral, outside observer.

[Ecritter]

I'd say go with the autopsy IA, but that's just me.

 

On the training cadre, I'd just leave that part blank.  Well, I'd mention from what chapter they came from, but what happened to them later I'd leave out.  That way the reader can infer whatever they choose.

[Noxifer262]

The reality is that the few examples that have been given lead us to infer that training cadres (our own term to describe the method) are a method that has been used. There is no evidence that implies that this is the only method, however. It's completely possible that some Chapters created in the 3rd and later foundings have had a core drawn from an older Chapter ("older" relatively speaking - a 25th founding Chapter is older than a 26th founding Chapter).

 

Realistically, whether your Chapter uses the training cadre or the core (again, a term I just made up) method will probably be largely irrelevant unless the Chapter's founding is the defining aspect of the Chapter. In most cases, the founding will be a minor element compared to the Chapter's battle history and accomplishments.

But what if they descend from a lost Chapter like the Astral Knights or an Excommunicate Traitoris like the Soul Drinkers or something?

[Gripharius]

 

But what if they descend from a lost Chapter like the Astral Knights or an Excommunicate Traitoris like the Soul Drinkers or something?

 

I think Ecritter's comments still applies: unless the training cadre and the role it played in the Chapter's founding is the defining aspect of the Chapter, you can gloss over it and its a non-issue. 

 

If its a lost Chapter, then Space Marines of some other CHapter would be tapped to serve as the training cadre, and whether they stay or go isn't important.

 

If its Excommunicate Traitoris... well, then the Chapter itself would be Traitor, because the AdMech is unlikely to make a new Chapter out of Traitor geneseed.  If the Chapter is Traitor, than you can write its founding as whatever Chaos-infested mess you choose.

[Noxifer262]

 

 

But what if they descend from a lost Chapter like the Astral Knights or an Excommunicate Traitoris like the Soul Drinkers or something?

 

I think Ecritter's comments still applies: unless the training cadre and the role it played in the Chapter's founding is the defining aspect of the Chapter, you can gloss over it and its a non-issue. 

 

If its a lost Chapter, then Space Marines of some other CHapter would be tapped to serve as the training cadre, and whether they stay or go isn't important.

 

If its Excommunicate Traitoris... well, then the Chapter itself would be Traitor, because the AdMech is unlikely to make a new Chapter out of Traitor geneseed.  If the Chapter is Traitor, than you can write its founding as whatever Chaos-infested mess you choose.

I meant if they founded a chapter BEFORE going traitor.

[Gripharius]

 

 

 

 

 

But what if they descend from a lost Chapter like the Astral Knights or an Excommunicate Traitoris like the Soul Drinkers or something?

 

 

 

I think Ecritter's comments still applies: unless the training cadre and the role it played in the Chapter's founding is the defining aspect of the Chapter, you can gloss over it and its a non-issue. 

 

If its a lost Chapter, then Space Marines of some other CHapter would be tapped to serve as the training cadre, and whether they stay or go isn't important.

 

If its Excommunicate Traitoris... well, then the Chapter itself would be Traitor, because the AdMech is unlikely to make a new Chapter out of Traitor geneseed.  If the Chapter is Traitor, than you can write its founding as whatever Chaos-infested mess you choose.

I meant if they founded a chapter BEFORE going traitor.

Again, I don't think that either way -- whether the training cadre stays or goes -- the Inquisition will take a good, hard look at the successor Chapter. They might look a little harder if some of the training cadre's Geneseed ended up in the successor Chapter, but either way, the Inquisition will be interested. Other Chapters would be suspicious of them either way, too.

 

The biggest difference would be if the original training cadre was still with the successor Chapter when the training cadre's Chapter went Traitor. In that case, I think it would be a much, much bigger deal.

[Noxifer262]

 

 

 

 

 

 

But what if they descend from a lost Chapter like the Astral Knights or an Excommunicate Traitoris like the Soul Drinkers or something?

 

 

I think Ecritter's comments still applies: unless the training cadre and the role it played in the Chapter's founding is the defining aspect of the Chapter, you can gloss over it and its a non-issue. 

 

If its a lost Chapter, then Space Marines of some other CHapter would be tapped to serve as the training cadre, and whether they stay or go isn't important.

 

If its Excommunicate Traitoris... well, then the Chapter itself would be Traitor, because the AdMech is unlikely to make a new Chapter out of Traitor geneseed.  If the Chapter is Traitor, than you can write its founding as whatever Chaos-infested mess you choose.

I meant if they founded a chapter BEFORE going traitor.

Again, I don't think that either way -- whether the training cadre stays or goes -- the Inquisition will take a good, hard look at the successor Chapter. They might look a little harder if some of the training cadre's Geneseed ended up in the successor Chapter, but either way, the Inquisition will be interested. Other Chapters would be suspicious of them either way, too.

 

The biggest difference would be if the original training cadre was still with the successor Chapter when the training cadre's Chapter went Traitor. In that case, I think it would be a much, much bigger deal.

That's just what I wanted to say.