Looking for some quick veredicts here

[Verythrax Draconis]

Hi, I don't want it to become a tiresome discussion about what unit is better than the other and why. I'm starting to expand my CSM army from a DV box, so I've checked several threads so far and I want to know the veredict in some units and choices at our disposal. That way I plan to do some educated choices when buying my next units.

 

I was actively following the discussions at the time that our codex came up, but RL issues kept me from it. Since I believe you guys already had plenty of time to test everything, let me tap into this knowledge ;)

 

I'll list here some stuff I've got from other topics, so please be free to add something - if you have a discussion thread that you can point me to base that opinion, it's more than welcome!

 

Chosen - outclassed by Terminators, but can be used effectively as a plasma-spam unit or a CC unit with MoK;

Havocs - some good builds are maxed out autocannons, lascannons and MLs (against flyers);

Dreadclaws - are overpriced, not so effective and take valuable FA slots.

Heldrakes remain as the best FA option, but I'll need more info on how to use it effectively and the best quantity to field

 

Your turn! I would love to know more about Typhus, zombies, Blight Drones, bikes, and mauler/forgefiends.

[Warsmith Aznable]

Blight Drones can do OK, but they're very fragile. They come screaming in, lay out a template, and then explode. Usually, anyway. I like Forgefiends with the Hades: dakka-dakka-dakka! What's not to like?

 

Heldrakes? Baleflamer. Plan your attack run to fly-over targets of opportunity for the Vector Strike attacks, then put down a template on his scoring units. Heldrakes can stay on the table at full speed, helped along by their 360 firing arc. Watch where you point the butt-nozzles, because the AV10 will attract all kinds of fire as soon as it's showing, and then the fun is over. One is good, two is better, three is hilarious.

[King Willy]

I d argue that bikes and drakes is a meta thing

If everyone's pissing away points to fight your flyer chose the bike if they ally up and spam flyer drakes a decent

 

Termis a better then chosen but worse then bikes and what still amazes me since the dex dropped worse then spawn with the right mark

 

Marines or cultist depend on your particular preference if you like to net list then Huron compliments a proper power armour army while typhus is a must if taking lots of cultists is your thing

 

Maulerfeinds a wicked fast and scary as all hell if you don t mind buying a couple and sacrificing your havocs

 

Oblits a great in 1500 or more for me whereas before I didn t leave home without then the cheapness of havocs is scary and means they take precedence now

 

Tzeentch still sucks and nurgle armies can be a bit broken at times

 

Forge fiends can work against any none meq army if paired much like a mailer fiend but the points cost is hard to justify when compared to havocs but strength eight guns should not be scoffed at especially by the new tau you d be surprised how many broadsides you can take down with the ectoplasma

[the jeske]

I d argue that bikes and drakes is a meta thing

<_< yes because short range armies with HQs that work only in assault should keep their HQs on home objectives , maning the quad gun .

 

 

if you play tyfus your have two options . play bad and lose or play good and have people hate you . in a non enviroment where there is no timed rounds per player the hate may grow to astronomicla proportions[because technicly there is two time goal in every game 1shop/club closing up and opponent having enough and going home].

 

maulers were bad pre chaos demon dex [we didnt have units to properly support them with+ they are melee and melee sucked in a flyer dominated enviroment etc] ,after the chaos dex got an update we could technicly use maulers as ally in a demon list or try to build chaos zilla , problem is that MC from codex demons are more point efficient and have more utility and when taken as ally the mauler takes the slot  of oblits or the points from a upgrading a lord/sorc to a mace DP .

 

 

cultists . some build do use them for example chaozyllas , because they are very tight on points . in general take to have zombis with tyfus. to survive bigger squads have to be taken and then they stop being cheap . very vunerable to melee unless zombis.

 

drones are FW and die fast , if they were in the same slot as helldrakes one could think about them as support choice .

[Tenebris]

The Helldrake is to be the staple of CSM lists, it is simply that good. Use his vector strike to place a few hits on a unit that you fly over and than use the torrent flamer template to either burn units on an objective or units in cover. 

 

The Maulerfiend is a great unit if you don't wish to include daemon allies. It is a fast, reliable and tough unit to get into melee with. The basic Mauly with Magma Coils is a vehicle killer while a Lasher Tendrils Mauly is a good tarpit unit. The Beast rule allows them to be both fast and move with ease trough terrain, perfect for a rapid strike.

 

Chaos Terminators are in many ways much better than the Chosen. You can use them as a strong squad to escort your lord or as a MSU squad to deliver a quick punch with their combi weapons then when the combi is used up you charge in. Between terminator armor, basic power weapon and the access to marks you can make really a lot of interesting combinations. Slaanesh Terminators being my favorite ones for truth be told a terminator that hits at I 5 is hillarious.

 

The Havocs are a good and reliable unit. Kit them with Autocannon to provide firepower to take on enemy transports and MC, kit them with missile launchers to make the all rounders or give them lascannons to take on vehicles. The added bonus of the unit is that you can take special weapons instead and thus you can make plasma marines, melta marines and flamer marines to kill specific units. Pop them in a Rhino and here you go with plasma goodness. 

 

Since you plan to expand the DV army I would suggest you to get a unit of Oblitrators first. Mark them with MoN and you will have a tough unit that works in all ranges, with long range shooting with Assault Cannons and Lascannons, marine killers with Plasma Cannon or a tool to take on a number of unit with twin linked melta, flamer or plasma weapons. You simply cannot go wrong with Obliterators.

 

The second upgrade should be Bikers. They are again that good. Mark them, kit them with special weapons or use them as a distraction, they will get trough and get the job done. Again you can have big units or small units and both work well. They are an excellent escort unit for a biker lord, a great lord indeed.

 

The third upgrade should be a Sorcerer of some sort. Bar Tzeentch lore, Slaanesh and Nurgle lores are both useful and fluffy. A cheap sorcerer can be quite the force multiplier and a kitted out sorcerer quite a nuisance. Even the Khorne armies benefit from blessings and a sorcerer can quite well be a good killer too.

 

From here on is either Plague Marines or Noise Marines if you will venture in a competitive enviroment for both choices are good. You cant go wrong with more cultists too, cheap on ebay they are, but still keep at least 40 models of CSM around for all lists benefit from four units of troops. The Noise Marines are great generic troops and work nice against the ever present marine armies for they can be both a melee or a ranged unit. The Plague Marines are tough, nasty and effective. Two special weapons, a rhino and you have a solid core to build your army around.

 

As for HQ; Typhus is really good but don't be overzealous with him. A combination of zombies and plague marines is a tough army to crack. Khârn is another killer unit but he requires a substantial support in both escort units, transports and ranged support to get to the enemy lines. Lucius, Ahriman, Huron and Fabius require a lot of babysitting and list tailoring, avoid if beginner and explore later one once you are more confident. Abbadon is a werecking ball, point him toward the enemy and see them die but again a proper escort unit is needed.

 

Now following up you can develop your list with other staple units of the 6th edition. Black Mace Winged Daemon Prince, Khorne Lord with Axe of Blind Fury or a cheap and mobile Lord with the Brand of Skalathrax. All three are great killers and need little in terms of babysitting. 

 

So to recap: I would advise you to get two Battleforces for the bikes, infantry and Rhinos which will be always useful. Than move on either a specific god army with a named character of your choice or you can always build your own chaos lord. Remember that the daemonic mounts make your lord quite powerful and a winged prince is great too. Still once you buy your battleforces invest in a Helldrake before moving on. Never, ever, leave home, without a Helldrake, it is simply that good and it will make your first battles way more friendly. 

[Verythrax Draconis]

Thanks a lot Tenebris, very insightful and close to what I wanted with the topic.

 

Someone care to elaborate more on bikes? What weapons and roles, and if it's viable to use duplicate units?

In fact, while I'm not planning on doing nothing tematic or uber-competitive, I'm considering bikes, noise marines, havocs, Typhus w/Zombies for the next purchases. Not really sure how well it would work together, but since we are on "escalation mode" here at my club, I have plenty of time to experiment using small lists, so I don't think it would be and issue, so I'm more inclined to try with some stuff I think it would be fun to play, but without losing competitivity from sight.

[Tenebris]

Bikes come in three flavors:

 

Melta Bikers: Two Melta Guns to get quickly toward the enemy armor and blast them apart. If you lack units that can do this from range you can rely on this guys to get the job done. The most common use of the chaos bikers.

 

Plasma Bikers: Two Plasma Guns to hunt side armor and marines. This build benefits a lot from the Relentless rule which allows you to fire your Rapid Fire plasma guns and than charge in melee. A good build but should be used wisely when you hunt your quarry. A Feel No Pain icon can be of use here.

 

Flamer Bikers: Cheap, effective infantry hunters. Give them two flamers and hunt GEQ units. Flame them and than charge in. Results guaranteed.

 

Now this is the staple of the bikers but there is more, as always...

 

Bikers make great escort unit with their natural Toughness 5 and cover from Turbo Boost. A Chaos Lord on a bike is a frightening thing since it can quickly get to the grips with the enemy, has better toughness and can use the combi weapons or even better the Burning Brand to great effect. 

 

On the Marks you have to have in mind the role for your bikes. Nurgle Mark makes them T 6, which means very, very tough to kill. Mark of Khorne makes them good in melee while Mark of Slaanesh plays well on the I 5 which makes them good at killing marines for you almost always strike first. Power Weapons should be given to the Lord and the Aspiring Champion if you have MoS or MoK, you can spare that if you use MoN. 

 

As for the Icons, Icon of Vengeance is a must if they are bikers alone, thus they need to be Fearless, Icon of Excess is expensive but FNP bikers are a tough sort, great in combination with plasma guns and the combiplasma on the champion.

[Cmdr Shepard]

 

if you play tyfus your have two options . play bad and lose or play good and have people hate you . in a non enviroment where there is no timed rounds per player the hate may grow to astronomicla proportions[because technicly there is two time goal in every game 1shop/club closing up and opponent having enough and going home].

 

Can you elaborate further? Thank You.

[Iron Father Ferrum]

 

if you play tyfus your have two options . play bad and lose or play good and have people hate you . in a non enviroment where there is no timed rounds per player the hate may grow to astronomicla proportions[because technicly there is two time goal in every game 1shop/club closing up and opponent having enough and going home].

 

Can you elaborate further? Thank You.

 

Basically, he's saying that playing a Typhus zombie horde amounts to "turtling," where the nature of your army drains the clock.  If you start late enough, you might not be able to actually finish a game because the LGS is closing, or your opponent decides he's had enough of your one-hour-turns, surrenders, packs up, and leaves.

[Cmdr Shepard]

 

 

if you play tyfus your have two options . play bad and lose or play good and have people hate you . in a non enviroment where there is no timed rounds per player the hate may grow to astronomicla proportions[because technicly there is two time goal in every game 1shop/club closing up and opponent having enough and going home].

 

Can you elaborate further? Thank You.

 

Basically, he's saying that playing a Typhus zombie horde amounts to "turtling," where the nature of your army drains the clock.  If you start late enough, you might not be able to actually finish a game because the LGS is closing, or your opponent decides he's had enough of your one-hour-turns, surrenders, packs up, and leaves.

 

Understood

So he is also saying playing just few zombie units is " play bad" while playing many of them (zombie horde") is "play good", right?

Anyway the "one-hour-turns" happen with Orks armies as well .. just for the records ;)

[Verythrax Draconis]

if you play tyfus your have two options . play bad and lose or play good and have people hate you . in a non enviroment where there is no timed rounds per player the hate may grow to astronomicla proportions[because technicly there is two time goal in every game 1shop/club closing up and opponent having enough and going home].

Can you elaborate further? Thank You.

Basically, he's saying that playing a Typhus zombie horde amounts to "turtling," where the nature of your army drains the clock. If you start late enough, you might not be able to actually finish a game because the LGS is closing, or your opponent decides he's had enough of your one-hour-turns, surrenders, packs up, and leaves.

Understood

So he is also saying playing just few zombie units is " play bad" while playing many of them (zombie horde") is "play good", right?

Anyway the "one-hour-turns" happen with Orks armies as well .. just for the records

Not really, he didn't said "play good" he just said that the horde gives more chance to win, but can be incredibly annoying ;)

[the jeske]

yep . imagine this 30-35 models per unit . moving each model , checking 2" spread [or what ever spread you want for that moment] , checking LoS , shifting tyfus to minize the chance of him being non barage sniped . check flame drakes arrival. use flame drakes . let say you wont be a total and each model will take you lets say 8 sec for the zombi.  30 sec for the drakes and 10-20 for tyfus . then your turn takes 25 min and your doing stuff fast  , there is no shoting no melee to do , no terrain to roll for etc.

[Cmdr Shepard]

yep . imagine this 30-35 models per unit . moving each model , checking 2" spread [or what ever spread you want for that moment] , checking LoS , shifting tyfus to minize the chance of him being non barage sniped . check flame drakes arrival. use flame drakes . let say you wont be a total and each model will take you lets say 8 sec for the zombi.  30 sec for the drakes and 10-20 for tyfus . then your turn takes 25 min and your doing stuff fast  , there is no shoting no melee to do , no terrain to roll for etc.

 

True. I remember whe I played against Orks (it has been a while since the last time I met them ) and it was very annoying, for both of us. A full zombie horde will even have more models.

I  thought to add a couple of zombies units to an army few times (one was actually as allied detachment since Typhus seems to allow zombies even when he is not in the primary detachment. Correct me if I'm wrong) but those alone were 70 models, nearly more than the actual number of models I usually field since I play mostly MEQ armies.

Perhaps just two units are not that bad... I should try it one of these days ;)

 

Just a question: the zombies are slow and purposeful, so if we put Typhus inside one of those unit they cannot run. If we play to bring Typhus to enemy deployment zone wouldn't be better to put him in a standard cultist unit and use the zombies to hold objectives?

In other words FnP on Typhus's "zombie bodyguards" is worth the reduced movement (namely no run)?

Assuming we just field two 35 models units....

[the jeske]

taking tyfus a 200+points hq to take 2 units of zombis is too big of a tax . may as well take a normal nurgle lord and take plaguemarines , for the same points they will be just as resilient most of the time and actualy do something in the shoting phase .

[Cmdr Shepard]

taking tyfus a 200+points hq to take 2 units of zombis is too big of a tax . may as well take a normal nurgle lord and take plaguemarines , for the same points they will be just as resilient most of the time and actualy do something in the shoting phase .

 

I was thinking about taking Typhus because he is also a good melee character. The zombies would have been a bonus. Consider I was thinking about an allied detachment for an army that needs some CC boost ;)

[the jeske]

he is not a good melee character . he cost a lot of points and is very slow . you could almost get a DP with a mace for the points.

[Cmdr Shepard]

he is not a good melee character . he cost a lot of points and is very slow . you could almost get a DP with a mace for the points.

 

It depends on the army you are allying him with ;)... there are armies who would consider him a nice "upgrade" to their cc capabilities, (also remember I said good not great) ;) and gives you zombies. Honestly I don't like the "build" since it's even boring; I was just talking about possibilities ;)

[the jeske]

It depends on the army you are allying him with ... there are armies who would consider him a nice "upgrade" to their cc capabilities, (also remember I said good not great) and gives you zombies. Honestly I don't like the "build" since it's even boring; I was just talking about possibilities

ok which army wants a slow melee character. not a short army , that ones either a untility HQ or a good melee hq . Not a gunline , a gunline wants a counter HQ and this means they have to react fast , which means duh it has to fast . We cant even use him for BB bonus stacking , because our BBs have a rules that stops us from interacting with each other . So enlighten me which army would want tyfus over lets say a biker nurgle lord or a Mace DP .

[Cmdr Shepard]

It depends on the army you are allying him with ... there are armies who would consider him a nice "upgrade" to their cc capabilities, (also remember I said good not great) and gives you zombies. Honestly I don't like the "build" since it's even boring; I was just talking about possibilities

ok which army wants a slow melee character. not a short army , that ones either a untility HQ or a good melee hq . Not a gunline , a gunline wants a counter HQ and this means they have to react fast , which means duh it has to fast . We cant even use him for BB bonus stacking , because our BBs have a rules that stops us from interacting with each other . So enlighten me which army would want tyfus over lets say a biker nurgle lord or a Mace DP .

Most of times I'm under the impression we simply talk about different things....in other words we simply don't understand the "purpose/aim" of a given conversation... honestly I don't even know if I'll be even able to explain it, so never mind... otherwise I would spend too much time in trying to explain the whole matter.

Perhaps it's the language barrier since both of us in not a native English speaker...

[Tenebris]

To be sincere I don't know why an army would choose CSM allies in the first place. Helldrake maybe but even so there are better fliers out there to ally for. Some say that Fabius could work as a good ally buffing a CSM unit, giving Fearless to another and he might even have some use of his weapons afterall. But a cheap speedbump for a gunline army I don't see CSM in any art or form as viable allies. 

 

Indeed it goes without saying that our allies "of choice" are sometimes inimical to us. That is something that again speaks volumes of bad codex design, rushed if I may. 

 

A guard army might use Typhus not for his qualities in melee but as a way to bring some zombies as a tarpit unit, as for getting him into melee where he might make his points back is another discourse. Deep Strike is the only option for the points of a Land Raider are imo prohibitive for what it is an allied contingent. 

[Cmdr Shepard]

To be sincere I don't know why an army would choose CSM allies in the first place. Helldrake maybe but even so there are better fliers out there to ally for. Some say that Fabius could work as a good ally buffing a CSM unit, giving Fearless to another and he might even have some use of his weapons afterall. But a cheap speedbump for a gunline army I don't see CSM in any art or form as viable allies. 

 

Indeed it goes without saying that our allies "of choice" are sometimes inimical to us. That is something that again speaks volumes of bad codex design, rushed if I may. 

 

A guard army might use Typhus not for his qualities in melee but as a way to bring some zombies as a tarpit unit, as for getting him into melee where he might make his points back is another discourse. Deep Strike is the only option for the points of a Land Raider are imo prohibitive for what it is an allied contingent. 

 

It was just theoritical speculation. It went out of control because that's what happen with some persons. It's the reason I stopped to talk about the matter.

I don't know if can deal with persons who don't listen at you, brother... I personally can't. Nothing personal with that person but I simply cannot interact with him... I have been told it's the language barrier but I'm not native English speaker too but I'm never harsh or hostile... just for the records, brother.. no intention to go off topic ;)

 

I mentioned Typhus and Zombies as a way to create some security line for armies who don't want to be assaulted. It was a mere idea I had in the very moment I read Typhus zombies in a topic but one of the other members started his usual behaviour... as I said I'm done with him since we cannot communicate in an effective way...

[zyl-]

Well, Jeske, here is why Typhus is a goood mele character. 2+, t5, fnp, psyker debuffs to targets. He could stand to have a better invulnerable save than 5++, and he could stand to be able to move faster, and he could stand to have Eternal Warroir, but he's not bad just because he's not Draigo. A biker lord has a 3+/3++ save at best, and unless it's a prince of tzeentch, it's a 3+/5++ save.. also worse than Typhus. None of those unlock the zombies, and while we are on the topic, Typhus unlocks plague marines as troops too. As far as mele power goes, Typhus has at least as many possible attacks as any option mentioned with a daemon weapon, and he has a force weapon. On top of that, he has that rediculous swarm power that can easily wipe an entire unit. If your only argument is "He can't run all the way across the field in 1 turn," then it's a non argument. Why? Because bikes can be fast as they want, but if they are tied up in mele, they are just as tied up as anyone. Most of the time that's the limiting factor in getting from point A to B.

 

TLDR: Typhus -is- good.

[Cmdr Shepard]

Well, Jeske, here is why Typhus is a goood mele character. 2+, t5, fnp, psyker debuffs to targets. He could stand to have a better invulnerable save than 5++, and he could stand to be able to move faster, and he could stand to have Eternal Warroir, but he's not bad just because he's not Draigo. A biker lord has a 3+/3++ save at best, and unless it's a prince of tzeentch, it's a 3+/5++ save.. also worse than Typhus. None of those unlock the zombies, and while we are on the topic, Typhus unlocks plague marines as troops too. As far as mele power goes, Typhus has at least as many possible attacks as any option mentioned with a daemon weapon, and he has a force weapon. On top of that, he has that rediculous swarm power that can easily wipe an entire unit. If your only argument is "He can't run all the way across the field in 1 turn," then it's a non argument. Why? Because bikes can be fast as they want, but if they are tied up in mele, they are just as tied up as anyone. Most of the time that's the limiting factor in getting from point A to B.

 

TLDR: Typhus -is- good.

 

That was why I said he was good ;)

Honestly I don't see how a character with his stats, wargear and, as you mentioned, psyker debuffs (actually Nurgle powers seem to be AMONG the most useful powers from Codex:CSM).

Daemon weapons cannot be "spammed" on every IC like before. If you want to give an AP2 Daemon Weapon to a non unique character your only choice is the Axe of Blind Fury but it is limited to Khorne lords.

Is a juggernaut lord more effective in combat than Typhus? Probably he is but sometimes we value "variety", namely we want to try new options and possibly learn with "trial and error".

Now we know there are units/models which are intrinsically bad and not worth to be "tested", even though we could learn something from them as well, but Typhus is not one of them.

 

Beside what works with a player does not only work with everyone else and vice versa . The only way to discover it is sharing opinion like we are doing right now ;)

[the jeske]

Well, Jeske, here is why Typhus is a goood mele character. 2+, t5, fnp, psyker debuffs to targets

let say he even has 10 A . ap 1 weapon and each non nurgle model withing 1" of him dies durning the melee phase . how do you get them in to melee . how do you get him to counter stuff.

 

melee units in general are [and always were] fast , that goes double for 6th ed , when the charge range is random and very few units can be cool with charges[letter at 7" range and mauler at 12 and everyone else at 2"] . this means any melee units he is going to face will move faster then him . now we can technicly do a test of what happens if a tau or any other build runs fast moving melee units to tie up melee units and buy time for tyfus to get in to melee and win it for us , but that is doubling up of units and as we all know tyfus does not fall in to the cheap cathegory. the only thing that makes him different from a lord is opening [a very unfun to play against] zombi build and that is it . If a tau player ever wanted a chaos HQ in his army , he will take a mace DP [low ap flying MC , can get psychic powers etc] or a biker lord , he will never take a sorc[rune priests or librararians , hell even farseers give him more utility] and tyfus or huron dont have enough csm codex units to be run properly . tyfus because there is too few slots and huron because infiltration builds troops and elite units cost a lot and when a squad starts costing 300+pts the tau player may as well buy one of his own units [or take cheap units like lets say GH]..

 

 

 

 

Daemon weapons cannot be "spammed" on every IC like before.

 

like before what ? in 5th under gav dex we werent using lords we were runing DPs , under 4th H-man dex all demons weapons were 1 per dude + the dudes were limited in number [no 2 DPs] . under the JJ codex , well let us not touch the JJ codex , it was a very sad time for chaos [which gave us AI articles which includes demon weapons like the DA crozius] , under the 2ed codex demon weapon was a single wargearcard , the second one was on abadon . in slaves of D we rolled our stuff so technicly one could end up with more then one on different dudes , but that was a totaly different gaming system .

[Cmdr Shepard]

 

let say he even has 10 A . ap 1 weapon and each non nurgle model withing 1" of him dies durning the melee phase . how do you get them in to melee . how do you get him to counter stuff.

 

Like with every character who does not ride a transport. Beside it depends on the scenario. There are circumstances when you the enemy comes to you (once more I was talking about using him as defense for a shooty army) and then they found him

 

 

like before what ? in 5th under gav dex we werent using lords we were runing DPs

That didn't prevent someone to play a Lord and give him daemon sword. That's your problem jeske: you deal in absolutes and ignore the possibility something different from what you consider optimal may even exists, or is worth to continue its existence. It doesn't matter you are right or wrong, such attidue prevent any form of evolution in concepts and ideas.