My theory about the two missing Primarchs

[jeremy1391]

One if the missing Primarchs is actually Larry of the gravy bearers legion, he failed as a primarch and currently resides on the golden couch in the emperors palace and has refused to get a job since the great crusade and will be watching daytime imperial TV until the imperium fails.

[Mortarion24]

Well that's a load of bunk. The night haunter was the facet if justice but was corrupted due to growing up alone his first act was to kill a murderer asit was an unjust killing.

Bull, if he was an avatar of justice it wouldn't matter if he grew up alone, in a den of cut-throats or in Slaanesh's palace he'd be just. 

[GhostMalone]

Well look at all the primarchs they were blank slates with only certain facets pre installed, the emperor meant to raise them and I still his teachings.

 

Each primarch was shaped by their interactions growing up. Justice can be warped corrupted and be taken from different views depending on the case if nature vs nurture.

[Mortarion24]

Well look at all the primarchs they were blank slates with only certain facets pre installed, the emperor meant to raise them and I still his teachings.

 

Each primarch was shaped by their interactions growing up. Justice can be warped corrupted and be taken from different views depending on the case if nature vs nurture.

Kurze was more of an aspect of vengeance or retribution. Not justice. 

[NemFX]

My theory was that the 2nd primarch was a girl, and the 11th was Malal.

[Conn Eremon]

Vengeance, retribution and justice are three words that can easily be confused with each other. Isn't incarcerating a drug dealer society's retribution? When someone presses charges against the drunk driver who totaled their cars, isn't that vengeance? When someone commits crimes against society with impunity, without fear of reprisal because there are none with the power to stop them and will never stop for as long as they yet live, wouldn't the act of murdering them be an act of justice?

[Mortarion24]

Vengeance, retribution and justice are three words that can easily be confused with each other. Isn't incarcerating a drug dealer society's retribution? When someone presses charges against the drunk driver who totaled their cars, isn't that vengeance? When someone commits crimes against society with impunity, without fear of reprisal because there are none with the power to stop them and will never stop for as long as they yet live, wouldn't the act of murdering them be an act of justice?

Justice is a concept of moral rightness based on ethics, rationality, law, natural law, religion, equity or fairness, as well as the administration of the law, taking into account the inalienable and inborn rights of all human beings and citizens, the right of all people and individuals to equal protection before the law of their civil rights without discrimination.

 

Revenge is a harmful action against a person or group in response to a grievance, be it real or perceived. 

 

..taken from wikipedia but essentially what I was going for was that 

 

- Justice is acting within the law and treats things impartially and fairly, no matter their status or differences. 

 

- Vengeance is a negative physical action that is taken against your opposition which will not be impartial or necessarily proportionate. 

 

Justice can result in the killing of an individual or group but it will discern between the guilty and innocent, whereas vengeance will more likely be indiscriminate. 

 

Kind of like the difference between a war between the houses in Romeo and Juliette (Vengeance) and Batman protecting Gotham

 

EDIT: Although Batman, using fear to keep the criminals in check is a lot like Kurze, more towards retribution, but their methods are different :P Maybe a better example would be Superman!

[Conn Eremon]

You re-iterated your points without really refuting mine . . .

[Kol Saresk]

Except Curze didn't have notions of justice, only order and chaos. You either obeyed or you did not. And if you did not, you're skin became a cloak while you were left hanging and screaming above the streets: a symbol that even the slightest disobedience would punished severely.

 

That, is not, Batman.

[Sanctimonius]

Kurze is Thomas Wayne. Haven't y'all seen the Flashpoint Paradox?

 

I'm of the opinion that at least one of them rebelled against the Emperor, probably due to his inflexible xenophobia. Regardless of whether or not it would turn out to be justified, the Emperor is intolerant of a large number of things, not least intelligent species, religion and sorcery. I would guess that a Primarch eneded up on a world where humans and some Xenos species - maybe even an Eldar exodite clan - were largely isolated. Left to their own devices, there's no absolute rule they would turn to killing each other, or even if they did, perhaps the Primarch arrives to bring peace. Seasons pass and the Imperium arrives, with the legion of this Primarch in tow, who are more loyal to Terra than their lost father. Think Garro and the others who turned against their traitorous brethren, fighting for a few centuries tends to make you close to someone, certainly closer than to your 'true' father. Order comes in from Terra to further humanity and kill those that turn away from you, just want to be left alone or are simply Xenos. Son refuses, legionaries plunge into civil war divided between those recruited on Terra and those from the homeworld. After he is killed, the surviving legionaries are repentant (they did have to kill their father, and not necessarily a bad guy, after all) and are inducted into other legions. 

 

S'what I've always thought, anyways.

[Magic Dragon]

I like the idea that remnants of the two missing legions are, to a degree, in stasis somewhere. I recall a conversation in one of the novels between Dorn and Malcador seemed to suggest this to me when I read it at the time. My thinking on this is that they were put there after the loss of their respective Primarchs.

 

I personally like the idea that one of these Primarchs was indeed Sigmar and that while he was at one point found on his planet within the Eye of Terror by the Emperor (Warhammer Fantasy world) he died there and is lost to all time.

 

Reading the above thread an idea occurred to me that the other Primarch may have gone along the lines of the Relictors. He discovered the warp, daemons etc and started battling these forces with good intentions but made the mistake of trying to use the warp and daemons weapons etc against chaos itself... thus beginning his own tragic corruption with good intentions. He and much of his Legion may have eventually had to be purged by the Space Wolves and several other legions. This Primarch and his legion were deliberately removed from imperial records as their story would reveal the fundamental lie behind the Imperial Truth.

 

Just some random musings :) I know we will likely never know the truth behind this stuff but it is fun to play with possibilities.

[FashaTheDog]

One if the missing Primarchs is actually Larry of the gravy bearers legion, he failed as a primarch and currently resides on the golden couch in the emperors palace and has refused to get a job since the great crusade and will be watching daytime imperial TV until the imperium fails.

 

Indeed both he and the other missing Primarch, Carl, still live in the Emperor's basement on the Imperial Couch.  They both are huge fans of Mechanicum Idol and Imperium's Got Talent and they both vow to get a real Legion just after the this season of both shows end and go on a real Crusade, but somehow never quite get around to it; always complaining about how their back hurts, or Astartes these days just don't seem as good as those that came before so they'll hold out for better ones, or that they need to get a new Geller Field and a few other parts for their flagship that has been sitting on cinder blocks for past few thousand years and the forge worlds' are not open this time of night so they can't get the parts.  After a while the Emperor and his other sons all got together and tore down the statues of those two and vowed never to speak of either of them again.  Not even the Chaos Gods want to touch that and respect the vow, lest the Primarchs of sloth and procrastination infect the Warp.  I mean could you image Khorne's followers yelling "BLOOD FOR THE BLOOD GOD...TOMORROW!"

[Drale]

My idea for one of the missing Primarchs is thus.

 

So all of the Primarchs exhibit one of the Emperor's characteristics, but to a greater degree. 

 

One aspect I don't think is shown as dominant in any of the current Primarchs is Justice (a lot of them are justbut it none exemplify it)

 

So the Primarch (Who I dubbed Minos) was the living embodiment of Justice, and started the great war fighting orcs and other such evil alien races, but then he encountered Eldar. 

 

At first they entered into negotiations with the Eldar to determine what kind of creatures they were and found they were humanoid but xenos. Minos didn't have a problem with them and created the beginnings of an alliance. But before anything solid could form, word came from the Emperor that they were an alien race and must be destroyed. 

 

Minos didn't agree and could not justify attacking such a noble and cooperative race. And so he did the unthinkable. Minos disobeyed the Emperor. 

 

The Emperor soon found out of this betrayal and sent demands and set sanctions on the Minos chapter - The Bulls of Terra. He pushed them into conflict with other "peaceful" races, expecting them to bend to his will. 

 

Minos didn't. 

 

Reports were falsified and sent to Terra, telling of genocide and glorious expansion in the name of the Emperor. 

 

All the time, the Bulls of Terra evacuated friendly xenos and prepared to flee with them into another galaxy. 

 

As the truth slowly unfolded, the Space Wolves were sent to descend upon the Bulls of Terra with all the fury of an avenging father. 

 

Most of the xenos and Bulls had fled, and only a rearguard of the elite echelons and the Primarch himself stood to cover the retreat, when the Wolves struck. 

 

The Bulls of Terra were famed for their resilience and intractability and the legionaries left were all clad in heavy duty terminator armour. The Wolves assaulted from drop pods and gunships, slogging across the open ground before the mighty fortress of Knosus, were the Bulls were making their stand. 

 

For hours the Wolves threw themselves at breaches made in the walls by mighty vindicators and orbital bombardments, but the force shields that sheltered the city still held. Empowered by the will of the psykers that remained. Finally, almost a full day after the fighting had started, the Wolves, led by Russ himself broke through a gatehouse in the southern wall and started to fight their way up the main boulevard. They made it to the gates of the palace before Minos and his honour guard descended from the third floor in a mighty crash to bar their way. The fight that followed was bloody and brutal, but as the number of legionaries standing dwindled, all fighting halted and eyes turned to gaze in awe at Russ and Minos.

 

Russ was hewing with his mighty sword with all the prodigious strength and speed that his father had imbued him with. Too fast for a mortal's eye to follow, the blade flashed in and out and sought any breach in Minos' defences. At every stroke it was met by the hammer that Minos wielded or the titanic storm shield he carried in his left hand. Minos glowed with controlled power. His strength of conviction and certainty of his just cause was fuelling his latent psychic potential and he matched blows with his brother. The exchange lasted half a dozen minutes, with over 1,000 blows being made and countered. When suddenly. A booming gong sounded. Against all expectation, Minos threw his hammer to the ground at Russ' feet, grabbed his shield in both hands, and bull-rushed his counterpart. Russ staggered back, momentarily off guard, as a golden hue grew rapidly around the remaining Bulls, living and fallen, before bursting into a dazzling ray of pure sunlight, as the teleportation-spell that the librarians had been rushing to finish came to culmination. The Bulls had fled and the way after them had been closed and obscured for further travellers.

 

The Bulls currently reside in another galaxy, where they have built relations with amenable races and terminated incontrovertibly hostile ones, and they rebuild their strength and alliances in preparation for the great final battle that they know must surely come.

 

The Primarch of Justice was Curze.  He saw himself as a necessary evil, doing things others could not in the name of Justice in the Imperium.  His last words spoken to M'Shen were "Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."  If that doesn't support that Curze was out for justice, nothing will.

[Augustus]

Vengeance, retribution are emotional responses to perceived wrong doing

 

Punishment is the result of wrong doing with little room for flexibility or interpretation (basically the consequence of wrongdoing which may but usually doesn't contain much ...humanity/ethics/morals like chopping a hand off a thief regardless of the circumstances of why he did it (for his family)

 

Justice- where the perpetrators of wrong doing are brought before the law where ethics, and morals are used to judge. Can become corrupted so as justice is not achievable which leads to retribution ---> punishment ---> justice. Perhaps cyclical

 

This is my view.

 

Curze brought retribution. Then he instituted punishment. Unfortunately he never got to the justice part.

[Onisuzume]

LOL, you could even say that upon discovery, they hid the fact that the missing Primarchs were somehow changed into Females, and they hid that from the Emperor and their legion for X number of years. And when the Emperor found out ............. name me a father who is happy when discovering his son is actually a daughter.

The one from Kashimashi - Girl Meets Girl.

Anyhow, in Legion it is suggested that at least one of the two missing legions did something pretty bad to get itself deleted. Lord Commander Namatjira mentions it upon discovering that:

The Alpha Legion had spies in top-level ranks in the imperial army.

and the 11th was Malal.

Eh... I doubt you could consider that to be true.

Malal is/was one of the purest of the chaos gods - namely the embodiment of chaos' tendency towards self-destruction.

[The Primarch of Justice was Curze.

So Curze = Vhailor? (Planescape: Torment)

[FashaTheDog]

Anyhow, in Legion it is suggested that at least one of the two missing legions did something pretty bad to get itself deleted. Lord Commander Namatjira mentions it upon discovering that:

 

So what, he accidentally typed in: 'format Legion: /s'?

[Mortarion24]

The Primarch of Justice was Curze.  He saw himself as a necessary evil, doing things others could not in the name of Justice in the Imperium.  His last words spoken to M'Shen were "Your presence does not surprise me, Assassin. I have known of you ever since your craft entered the Eastern Fringes. Why did I not have you killed? Because your mission and the act you are about to commit proves the truth of all I have ever said or done. I merely punished those who had wronged, just as your false Emperor now seeks to punish me. Death is nothing compared to vindication."  If that doesn't support that Curze was out for justice, nothing will.

Well, no, not really. Kurze massacred entire planets and populations to cow the rest of the system/planet into submission. This is extreme warfare tactics which justifies the slaughter of the relative minority in the (hopefully accurate) knowledge that overall, more lives will be spared as people capitulate to you rather than risk fighting you. 

 

This is not a just way to fight. It may be effective but not just.

 

It is similar to the following situation: 

 

-If a man held a gun at your head and told you that if you didn't kill a 3 year old baby he would kill 30 teenagers. Would you kill the baby or refuse? (For this example the man is being honest and he genuinely will not hurt the teenagers if you kill the baby)

 

Kurze would stomp on the child (and probably skin it), saying that the results justify the means. 

 

Minos would refuse, because killing a 3 year old child, no matter what the consequences, is just plain wrong. 

 

Also, Kurze was mad and his actions were sadistic and his viewpoint warped. Can't be just when you're like that!

 

Saying that the Primarch I came up with can't be the embodiment of justice because Kurze is is like saying Peturabo can't be stubborn because Dorn is. 

[Heru]

Kurse was justice, it is just that his justice was corrupted. If he'd grown up somewhere else maybe he'd of been the type of just you are looking for, but he didn't. He is justice gone bad. Like when cops take the law into their own hands, they think they are dealing out justice without bureaucracy and loopholes, but they aren't.

 

Plus we are talking about a setting like 40k/30k, where there is no laws to protect people outside of the fledgling Imperium, and few laws to protect those inside it either.

 

Edit: Also Kurse would kill the man with the gun to his head.

[andrewr2x2]

It has been said by many at GW over the years that the two missing Primarchs were almost visited upon but a decision was made they never will be , further more the reason they were erased from History is because of this very topic and forum (well partly)  as badly as GW can figure out the needs of it customer base it does understand one fundamental and that is...
generally people who engage in a  sci fi or fantasy hobby which involves modelling and painting, even an aspect of role playing,  are somewhat creative. In that we have imaginations and having two huge blanks right in the middle of the fluff is exactly the stuff we like to see as it sparks the imagination and allows us the players and there customers to express our creativity and come up with our own primarchs and legions. Which often means more projects and conversions and therefore more sales. Also one day someone will right great fluff about the two missing legions and GW will steal that :cuss and makes all the monies . . . mbe.

[Onisuzume]

Hm... just occured to me...

What if the XI Legio tore itself apart?

I mean, it is number 11.

[High MarshalGR]

Kurse was justice, it is just that his justice was corrupted. If he'd grown up somewhere else maybe he'd of been the type of just you are looking for, but he didn't. He is justice gone bad. Like when cops take the law into their own hands, they think they are dealing out justice without bureaucracy and loopholes, but they aren't.

 

Plus we are talking about a setting like 40k/30k, where there is no laws to protect people outside of the fledgling Imperium, and few laws to protect those inside it either.

 

Edit: Also Kurse would kill the man with the gun to his head.

 

For me, as long as Curze used the penalties he thought correct against everyone, no matter the gender, the status etc (as he did since he slain the breaker of his laws, no matter the weight of the action) he at least treated everyone equally. I can say his Justice went bad because the punisment wasn't scaling along with the weight of the crime, but it was the same for every crime. Regardless, he efficiently created a near zero crime rate (crime by his standards) but was a fair ruler at times. The thing with Curze is, he is a dual personality. One of "light" and one of "shadow". He didn't balance those aspects and ended up doing what he did. But I do believe one part of him was righteous and just. It was the part that drove him to his death from the assasin.

[GhostMalone]

Exactly kurze treated everyone just. He never killed innocents on nostramo only the guilty.

 

Once he got his legion and had to put innocents to the torch was when he started to blur his boundaries. The emperor made him into what we know, and in the end he was vindicated for his actions

[High MarshalGR]

Exactly kurze treated everyone just. He never killed innocents on nostramo only the guilty.

 

Once he got his legion and had to put innocents to the torch was when he started to blur his boundaries. The emperor made him into what we know, and in the end he was vindicated for his actions

 

He didn't treat everyone just (in the widely accepted term I mean, for himself he was just indeed), he treated everyone equally. You destroy a kid's toy? Death. You beat a woman? Death. You park against the law? Death. You become angry with someone and fight him? Death.

 

I can't say this is just Jaspcat. But I can say it is equal. I'll try to illustrate the widely accepted theory about those two:

 

http://asnailinmypocket.files.wordpress.com/2013/02/equality-and-justice.jpg

[Conn Eremon]

Hm. Maybe I'm weird, but in my mind those images should be switched.

[GhostMalone]

See to me we have a limited understanding to just and equality.

 

A man drink driving kills a mother gets 5yrs improsenment

A beater kills a mother gets life.

 

The end result is the mother dies,

To me they both should have had life imrisonment as it's the same result.

 

A drink driver can have remorse but be still killed a human.

A beater if shown remorse still gets a Life sentence

 

At the end of the day it doesn't matter about mental stability or alcohol it comes to that both made the choice to drink drive or kill they both may not have been thinking correctly but it's the same result so why show lenience.

 

Just my personal view and comparison