Wade Garrett Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Is anyone else bothered by the older fluff that has Horus weeping and repenting before the Emperor strikes him down at Terra? Maybe I'm just an emotionally stunted troglodyte, but I feel like that one moment completely sinks his characterization, in that it reduces his whole motivation to "The Chaos Gods made him do it" and it makes him the only deceased Primarch to flip flop positions. Sanguinus, Curze, Ferrous...beneath the cruel circumstance, they did not weep nor cry aloud. Under the burgeoning of fate their heads were bloody but unbowed. Even the Primarchs who only came close to death: Lorgar in First Heretic, Perturabo in Angel Exterminatus, didn't cry and have life changing epiphanies..they faced their ends with as much dignity as circumstances allowed. What does Horus do? "WAAAAHHH! I'M SORRY DADDY! WAAAAHHH!" How did this guy get picked to lead a rebellion in the first place? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowSong7007 Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Who knows, maybe it was some sort of crude attempt to get people to feel for him. Even in the older fluff Horus was the primarch that other primarch looked up to. He was the best at everything. Second only to the Emperor with no flaws except hubris. To me it seemed like a lazy attempt to give him humanity. Who knows how they retcon it if/when they ever get to the Emperor/Horus fight. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351298 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kierdale Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Where/what is this older fluff? I don't recall it in the story of the Emperor and Horus' duel in the old Realm of Chaos book. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351299 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Nah, I like it. It underlines that Horus's fall was a tragedy not the act of a pantomime mustache twirler. He was subverted and deluded and at the last, with his ambitions destroyed, he realised this and died hating himself. I also don't think that amounts to a "redemption" so much as a realisation of guilt. The two things are not the same. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351305 Share on other sites More sharing options...
MordentHex Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Aegnor, on 17 Apr 2013 - 13:29, said: Nah, I like it. It underlines that Horus's fall was a tragedy not the act of a pantomime mustache twirler. He was subverted and deluded and at the last, with his ambitions destroyed, he realised this and died hating himself. I also don't think that amounts to a "redemption" so much as a realisation of guilt. The two things are not the same. Agreed, Imagine you started a war and just struck down your dad because you made a deal with the devil, destroyed half the world with atomic bombs, killed or maimed many of your brothers, murdered your sons and daughters and then realizing you where where wrong and deluded the whole time? Sanity cracking i would imagine needless to say cry worthy.. Edit: Im sure yo ucan find a copy of the way old story of the emperor confronting Horus from way back in 1st edition somewhere online. google it. It was actually a rather great short story for its time. Link for the B&C: http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/238851-bill-kings-short-story/ Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351339 Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChaosLord Leon Enaek Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I have never pictured it as tears - I imagine it as a great deal more muted and powerful: as he stands over the Emperor some desperate assault from his father drove the Chaos Gods back from his mind from a moment. In that moment, Horus sees what has happened in the last decade - the corruption of his Legion and his dreams, the death of billions, the ravaging of the great Terra itself, Ferrus and Sanguinius dead, mutants in his legions and his father mortally wounded. He doesn't want any part of this nightmare but knows his actions aren't truly his own, so he lowers his defences and lets the Emperor kill him so that the Imperium can survive. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351354 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Maybe I'm just an emotionally stunted troglodyte, but I feel like thatone moment completely sinks his characterization, in that it reduces his whole motivation to "The Chaos Gods made him do it" and it makes him the only deceased Primarch to flip flop positions. I think alike. Of course Horus was tricked into it, but that part fails to show that Horus had the seeds of Chaos within him since he was created. I hope it'll be better handled by BL, because I want it to link up with the long dead philosophical parts of the concept of Chaos that GW forgot a long time ago. "WAAAAHHH! I'M SORRY DADDY! WAAAAHHH!" I hope it will not be like that. That would suck like hell. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351454 Share on other sites More sharing options...
hinace Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I like to think it's Imperial propaganda. Horus was a hero to every space marine, he saw the truth that when the crusade ended, most if not all space marines would be killed. They were runing out of galaxy to conquer and the bastard was already taking him and his brothers out of the scene. Maybe he saw Chaos as the only way to fight him. If in the end he regretted what he had become, he could still have believed what he fought for. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351809 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 I always saw it as a flash of insight in which the Horus that was got a chance to return, only to be horrified over what the Horus that is had done. With the Emperor banishing all connections the Chaos Gods had with their star pupil, Horus was able to think clearly, untainted. Not that he was some sort of puppet, a controlled drone. But it seems to me that everything Horus experiences comes through a filter of sorts, to edge him onto the path he was already so very close to but likely may have never walked it otherwise. The Emperor strips the filter away, lets Horus truly see once more. I don't think it was actually tear-filled or whiny at all. It was nothing more than that brief moment of clarity before oblivion. The only emotion evident in it is the one it intends to instill in the voters. That of a regret, a wrong that can never be righted and an acceptance of the necessary consequences. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351834 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vesper Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 The emperor cut him from the Chaos Gods ? In the version I've read in the IA, they left Horus to die when they realize he failed. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351843 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 17, 2013 Share Posted April 17, 2013 Eh, same difference, but you're right, the language specifies 'fled' rather than 'cut off.' Either way, the Emperor's actions led to Horus having a brief moment without any outside influence occurring. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351852 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Is anyone else bothered by the older fluff that has Horus weeping and repenting before the Emperor strikes him down at Terra? Chaos players: "WAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!! CHAOS WASN'T RIGHT AFTER ALL AND OUR LEADER FELT SAD THAT HE DID WHAT HE DID" Sorry. But you were wiiiiiiiiide open for that. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351971 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 18, 2013 Author Share Posted April 18, 2013 Is anyone else bothered by the older fluff that has Horus weeping and repenting before the Emperor strikes him down at Terra?Chaos players: "WAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!! CHAOS WASN'T RIGHT AFTER ALL AND OUR LEADER FELT SAD THAT HE DID WHAT HE DID" Sorry. But you were wiiiiiiiiide open for that. Touche, Mr. Vaddon. Touche. Honestly though, I prefer this fan made rendition of the final showdown on the Vengeful Spirit http://z6.invisionfree.com/bljunkies/index.php?s=2305f0569731c7d06b91d0406c35d13e&showtopic=2506 to any of the stuff from White Dwarf or Collected Visions. I can admire a character who goes down into the darkness swinging, breaking his teeth on the iron collar of life, it's one of the things I like most about the Imperium, because say what you will of those deluded followers of the Corpse God, whether it's Sanguinus, Dorn, Ollanus Pious, Kage of the Thirteenth Penal Legion, Grimmaldus's last stand at Helsreach Hive, the nameless crew of Justicar Alaric's strike cruiser...they have made going out in style into an artform. Is it so wrong that I think the Warmaster, the man who set the galaxy alight, should have a little bit of that same dignity in death? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3351979 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conn Eremon Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Ehhh. I liked some of the exchanges, but he kind of dragged it out and ended it with a bad joke. To me, that was about as undignified a death as it can get. I mean really, actually spitting in someone's face makes you sound like a juvenile with social and anger problems. Figuratively spitting is okay, like with death or danger, but not actually. Better to let him have the dignity of clarity over a silly attempt at holding onto comically villainous lies. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352021 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 18, 2013 Author Share Posted April 18, 2013 I personally saw it as Horus using his last bit of strength to find one more way, any more way, to inflict pain on the Emperor. Plus, you know: "From Hell's heart, I stab at thee! With my last breath, I spit at thee!" What can I say, I like the classics. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352022 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Sorry. That fan version was pretty meh. Which is why I'm very much looking forward to ADB's next HH project, The Master of Mankind. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352030 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted April 18, 2013 Author Share Posted April 18, 2013 Sorry. That fan version was pretty meh. Which is why I'm very much looking forward to ADB's next HH project, The Master of Mankind. You do know that's about the Emperor, not Horus, right? Anyway, I still think the fan version is better than Horus's last words from Collected Visions IV. "I have been...a fool. I was so wrong...everything is ruined. I have betrayed you...my father. I do not ask for forgiveness...end my torment...kill me now! I am too weak to resist them...they call to me...please end this." Which is not bad in and of itself, it's just that it...really needed to cut off...somewhere around the...second set of...ellipses or so...because this...version causes me to read...the entire thing in William...Shatner's voice..which totally ruins what should...be a dramatic and powerful culmination of the...Heresy. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352042 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peter the Hermit Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Christopher Lee for me @Wade....Which is kind of cool....O noooo here comes Omar Little (Michael K. Williams) as the Emperor... But I will say Martyn Ellis can really narrate well....I mean first triology and "tTS" were voice-awesome.... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352072 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apothecary Vaddon Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Sorry. That fan version was pretty meh. Which is why I'm very much looking forward to ADB's next HH project, The Master of Mankind. You do know that's about the Emperor, not Horus, right? Anyway, I still think the fan version is better than Horus's last words from Collected Visions IV. "I have been...a fool. I was so wrong...everything is ruined. I have betrayed you...my father. I do not ask for forgiveness...end my torment...kill me now! I am too weak to resist them...they call to me...please end this." Which is not bad in and of itself, it's just that it...really needed to cut off...somewhere around the...second set of...ellipses or so...because this...version causes me to read...the entire thing in William...Shatner's voice..which totally ruins what should...be a dramatic and powerful culmination of the...Heresy. Yup. Which is why it'll be EPIC. I have half a mind to buy a ticket to the UK and kidnap ADB's SW minis and demand spoilers. There were a lot of 'and's there. Oh well. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352091 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antarius Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Hmm. I could go either way, depending on how well it's done. The Bill King story was fine, I thought. It's obviously a product of it's time though and doesn't fit with the current fluff, so the scene is bound to be done somewhat differently next time around whether Horus "repents" or not. Personally I like the idea that Horus is at least partly repentant. Well, perhaps not repentant, but somewhat regretful at what he's done. His character is more interesting to me if he has some emotional reaction to killing his sons, brothers and father beyond "Mwah-ha-haaa! Glory to Chaos! *twirls mustache*", but it obviously needs to be handled well. I mean, Darth Vader is a cool character because there's some ambiguity about him, his relationship to Luke and his "fall to Chaos". I think it ought to be the same with Horus, although he obviously can't throw the Emperor down a chute :) I guess to me it's like this: he does need to have fallen beyond redemption. But a tiny bit of regret for being beyond redemption might make for a powerful bit of space drama. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352142 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skirax Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Is anyone else bothered by the older fluff that has Horus weeping and repenting before the Emperor strikes him down at Terra? Maybe I'm just an emotionally stunted troglodyte, but I feel like that one moment completely sinks his characterization, in that it reduces his whole motivation to "The Chaos Gods made him do it" and it makes him the only deceased Primarch to flip flop positions. Sanguinus, Curze, Ferrous...beneath the cruel circumstance, they did not weep nor cry aloud. Under the burgeoning of fate their heads were bloody but unbowed. Even the Primarchs who only came close to death: Lorgar in First Heretic, Perturabo in Angel Exterminatus, didn't cry and have life changing epiphanies..they faced their ends with as much dignity as circumstances allowed. What does Horus do? "WAAAAHHH! I'M SORRY DADDY! WAAAAHHH!" How did this guy get picked to lead a rebellion in the first place? To me, it's the scale of Horus' treachery that causes his revelation. Let's analyse each dead Primarch in their dying moments; Sanguinius; he died knowing he had done his duty and that Horus was truly lost - this would have no doubt saddened him but he was loyal, and knew that he was "innocent" when it came to the perpetration of the Heresy. He had no reason to feel bad. Curze; I've always firmly held the belief that Curze was evil, and therefore his "death" (quote marks because it was never 100% confirmed he died) would have been like how Harvey Dent died, for example. Ferrus; He did feel remorse but again, like Sanguinius, he was innocent, and he saw Fulgrim, his closest brother, was truly lost. Dorn; He died doing his duty, he had a personal hand in the Defence of Terra, he drove back millions of Traitors and he retrieved the Emperor and Sanguinius' bodies from Horus flagship. They come to mind but no others do. There are undoubtedly others that felt remorse but regardless, they were not major players in the reason the Heresy unfolded and if they were, such as Lorgar, they didn't die. Horus on the other hand, betrayed his father who had once loved like no other, had ruined his dream for a united mankind, suddenly realised that, instead of liberating the Imperium from the Emperor, he condemned nine whole Legions to the clutches of Chaos, as well as forevering condemning Mankind to a fate worse than what he perceived the Emperor would have led them to. Even if you were the most heartless bastard ever, that would bring you to tears. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352209 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 What do you mean we lost? The game is still on, it aint over until the phat lady sings! ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352302 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Ferrus: Died thinking "I hate Fulgrim SOOOOOO much" Guilliman: "Died" thinking "I hate Fulgrim SOOOOOO much" Dorn: Died happy, smashing face. Alpharius: Died thinking "haha! Little does he know my secret identity is actually *snick... gasp-rattle-die*" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352322 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Excessus Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Alpharius: Died thinking "haha! Little does he know my secret identity is actually *snick... gasp-rattle-die*" I more think of Alpharius last quote as something like: And I would have gotten away with it too, if it weren't for you meddling kids... Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352335 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 "Now let's find out who you really are!" *gasp* "It's old man Malcador, from the Council of Terra!" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274240-the-warmasters-redemption-yea-or-nay/#findComment-3352345 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.