Once Again GW Kicks Marines To the Curb

[IK Viper]

I have been hearing that Kroot rifles act as AP 5 weapons in CC.  Can someone confirm this?   And if this is true, why the :cuss are chain swords AP - ?  Once again space marines are looking more and more blah and middle of the road at best.  Surely a chainsword is as deadly as a rifle butt in Close Combat right? Chainswords are designed specifically for CC, unlike Kroot Rifles, which are at best a hybrid weapon.   

 

Also I know for a fact that Commander Farsight is 60 points cheaper then Commander. Dante, has the same DS special rule, and can strike S5 AP 2 just like Dante, but at his normal initiative... This is terribly unfair and frustrates me alot.  I put in a polite request to the GW FAQ e-mail to remove Unwieldly from Dante's axe, this would atlest make some sort of sense and restore a modicum or equality.  I urge the rest of the community to do the same (in a calm and reputable tone, supported by thought out evidance, not just ranting) 

[Alyssis]

In addition to its shooting ability, the Kroot Rifle is fitted with blades near the muzzle and stock, which are a throwback to early Kroot fighting staves. In the hands of a Kroot, these blades make effective close combat weapons.

 

So yeh, id agree if it was simply the butt, but... as written, that isnt so.. Now.. the fact that they are 10 points less then a standard tac marine, that might be something to discuss.. :P

 

Everyone knows that Space marines, and blood angels especially has an outdated codex, bad costs on models, and the worst named hqs all over..! Theres not much to do about it.. we can wait til late 2015, and see if we get something better in a new codex..! At least that was what i read a few days ago.. There was someone pointing out that even GW prolly doesnt know what they are gonne release that far ahead, so theres no point in beliving those rumors.. :P

[Messor]

Yeah, this is a brand new Codex. Changes (or in EDI's words "seamless improvements") have been made. Just based on this new codex, I'd say the boys in power armor have a lot to look forward to when the next codex hits, but in the mean time...well, we just have to deal.

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

The Space Marines are GW's bread-and-butter when it comes to income, so I'm sure goodies like this are in store for them. Certainly "Vanilla" Marines in the short term (I'm actually surprised they haven't redone their codex already), although Blood Angels will no doubt be further down the line.

 

On the other hand, Dark Angels don't get AP5 chain swords. Considering how brutal chain swords are in the fluff, I agree that they should have some special rule. Maybe rather than AP5, they should cause -1 to enemy armour saves. Who knows how likely that is, though.

[IK Viper]

I just feel like I, as a customer, have seen my investment in to the hobby, (buying models) stepped on.  What once was a very competative army has now been reduced to below average IMO.  By doing things like this, my units are being devalued when compared to other armies.  Are we as a community ok with this being done to us on regular basis?  I feel that GW would avoid this trend if they went back and FAQ updated obvious embalance in the game.  That is a perfectly reasonable thing for them to do after we as players spend loads of money on their product. 

[Drunken Angel]

Only some marines.  Youve not heard of Grey Knights ? they have AP3 power weapons a storm bolter and the ability to make the bolter S5 and the power weapon I6.  Kroot still dont hurt AV3 armour and they are T3 S3. Their new codex hasn't exactly launched DA either and Chaos needed a brass chicken that shoots flames out its butt to make them viable which at the same time pretty much bones all other exposed power armoured troops.  Necrons have these flyers and these wraith thingeys that are really nasty too. Kroot are the least of our worries.  It is what it is and it aint what it should be but what is in 40K ?  Just a matter of time our codex will come but in the meantime theres little to be done about the imbalances though I do understand the pain you feel.

[Firepower]

They got AP 5, but unless I am mistaken, the Kroot's statlines also got nerfed (lost a STR point), and they also have negligible armor. Granted, they used to have NO armor without extra cost (1 point per model).

So, a model with STR 3, T3, I3, and 6+ armor makes your STR4 T4 I4 3+ model feel inferior in close combat, because his sword doesn't get an AP 5 value? Oh, and lets not forget that the Kroot Rifle no longer counts as an extra CCW, so they lost an attack with this update. Which would you rather have, +1 attack or ap 5?

I'd be more worried about their [edit-extremely cheap, don't want to give exact values] point Sniper Rifle upgrades, were I you. Kroot got worse at CC, not better.

As for asking for an update to be more in line with new codices- even if you do ask nicely or make a somewhat coherent argument, it won't be changed. How long did Dark Eldar and Necrons go without the slightest bit of love, when they had much more to be worried about than Angels or Vanilla marines do now? How long has BT gone with overpriced HQs, and troops that cost more than yours, but without grenades as a standard equipment? Sisters have all sorts of reasons to complain, and though I've not read it myself, I have heard that their WD update wasn't exactly much of a remedy.

Some of this makes sense, some of it doesn't. In those Erratas, it would be nice if, say, Righteous Zeal was given a bit more thought than an off-hand judgment (just as an example, this is not meant to be a whine over BT issues). Erratas generally seem as minimal as they can get away with, and that's annoying, and sometimes down right cruel, depending on the ruling.

But imagine the opposite. First, with every new dex, they would have to go back and tweak every other dex- a huge investment of time and money which would likely piss just as many people off. Second, any time the community started to write in saying hat they felt their lot in life was unfair because of one thing or another, GW would have to change it?

And of course, if you wanna be a total cynic (and there is no shortage of those on the internet) GW lets old codices be slowly outclassed so that people will spend money on the newer toys, not because the other option is completely lacking in practicality.

[Alyssis]

As for the new codexes, only rumor ive heard about BA is late 2015.. i sure hope thats not true..!

As for space marines, somewhere between june and october is mentioned..

 

[IK Viper]

The Sniper Rifle upgrade is MUCH better I admit, what upsets me is the principle of the thing...  Chainswords should be better then Kroot Rifles,  anyone with half a brain will see that, why don't they?

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I would rather Kroot be AP5 in melee than have count-as having 2xCCW. Because now they only have 1 attack.

 

As for the BA Codex being outdated, well it is a blessing and a curse. Do you really think Mephiston is going to remain as good as he is now in our next Codex? Mephiston is an example of 'Ability Creep.'

 

As IK Viper points out, the CSM have gotten a rude piece with the Heldrake but otherwise their Codex is fairly balanced, IMHO. Also Daemons, DA and Tau all feel well executed and balanced within the parameters of 6th Edition.

 

The problem is the 5th Edition holdovers. In 6th Edition, "Codex Ability-Creep" does not seem rampant so far as it goes with CSM/DA/CD/Tau. New Toys, yes. New brokeness? No (minus that unfortunate FAQ via Heldrake).

 

Codex Ability-Creep has been a major complaint for as long as I've been playing in the past 8 years. I contend that Codex Ability-Creep is going away, because nearly everyone hates it. Instead, it seems that GW is dropping points costs on everything. Points cost have fallen through the floor in the last 4 codicies, but yet no one would call the 6th Ed codicies broken for it because they can't match the 5th Ed brokeness of Ability-Creep.

 

So instead of "Abilities-Creep" we will see "Points-Drop-Creep" instead. What this means is that for the forseeable future, Necrons and Grey Knights will continue to dominate since they were the final products of 5th Edition Ability-Creep.

 

Also, remember how everything simply continues to get cheaper? Don't be shocked when the Vendetta comes out at 130pts again in the next IG codex. I cannot think of a single Unit that got more expensive in a 6th Ed codex (strike that-- Belial came to mind). Anyhow, take this example:

• Vanilla Devs with 4x Lascannon: 230pts [OCT 2008]
• BA Devs with 4x Lascannon: 190pts [APR 2010]
• SW LFs with 4x Lascannon: 175pts [OCT 2009]
• CSM Havocs with 4x Lascannon: 155pts [OCT 2012]
• DA Devs with 4x Lascannon: 150pts [JAN 2013]

You see that? DA are paying EIGHTY points less than Vanilla SM for the exact same thing.

 

BA are now 9th newest of 16 Codicies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Codex_%28Warhammer_40,000%29). Welcome to middle of the pack Gentlemen--- we're gonna be fine, I'm not worried. Especially with the Allies system generally opening doors for everyone in the older books.

[Firepower]

The Sniper Rifle upgrade is MUCH better I admit, what upsets me is the principle of the thing...  Chainswords should be better then Kroot Rifles,  anyone with half a brain will see that, why don't they?

 

Marines should wipe every army off the board using only 15 models, if we're going to play the game on principle.  I'll take balanced rules over that any day.

 

Not giving Marines AP 5 chainswords, because a model that is worse in CC on every other term gets it, is not 'Kicking Marines to the Curb.'

 

And really, this has me befuddled.  Of all the things to whine about...monstrous high str high ap blast templates, models that can shoot anything down when entering from reserves, stealth, markerlights, huge amounts of firepower, cross-fire overwatch....you complain about a beating stick getting AP 5.  5.  As in doesn't-affect-you-at-all 5.  As in Oh-no-they-might-kill-guardsmen-now 5.  On a unit with below average CC stats, which is way better off shooting.

 

Because it makes you look at your chainsword and go 'Awww...poopy.'

 

Worst complaint thread ever.

[IK Viper]

The thing is, all Space Marine players should be upset about the AP 5 thing, not just BA.  To me it would have been a fundamental way to set Marines apart from other similar armies, "even our CC attacks have AP 5" would go a long way to actually making them marines scary again. As it stands, 9 point Bloodletters have AP3 while marines have squat. 

 

I also think AP on chainswords would make Assault Marines viable in other non-BA codexes.  No one else uses them for alot of reasons but for one, a Tac. Sqaud Rapid Firing is alot better at cleaning out 5+ armour b/c bolters are AP 5...   

[Firepower]

And if you give Assault Squads AP chainswords you start looking at the rest of the FA slot and going 'Huh, why bother?'

 

And army wide power armor, free grenades, and 4's across the statline board are plenty enough that you shouldn't be looking for more handouts.  Marines are still plenty scary, and they certainly have more than 'squat.'    

 

You say 'should' when what you mean to say is 'I would like.'

[redmapa]

 

I also think AP on chainswords would make Assault Marines viable in other non-BA codexes. 

 

Assault marines are pretty viable on every codex, not sure what their problem is..

 

 

As it stands, 9 point Bloodletters have AP3 while marines have squat.  

 

they have a 5+sv, bolters will murder them in droves

 

 

 To me it would have been a fundamental way to set Marines apart from other similar armies 

 

what similar armies? there are no other armies that get S4 I4 BS4 WS4 3+sv, auto regroup, they stand out enough

 

BA arent outdated, they work wonders in 6th especially agaisnt Tau, sure they got nerfed but its nowhere as bad as you make it out to be and even if it was your still playing a marine army, the average statline of a marine does wonders to keep your army decent even if the rules hold you back

 

Xenos cant have better things than marines? really? thats the most conceited attitude ive seen in a while

[Leonaides]

And maybe at least IG or Eldar would like to think they have the smallest chance when you get your marine squad into combat with them...? AP5 CCW is a pointless upgrade that hurst a lot, and doesnt really benefit marines that much, other than 'I wantz shiny toys/rules!!!'. Seriously, let them have a 1 in 3 chance to save a wound, its really not going to make a great deal of difference.

[Firepower]

BTW, seeing as this is the BA subforum, let's talk about what should really scare you- the Interceptor upgrade.

Now when you deepstrike, you won't stop til you're a good six feet under ground. Dante's ax won't matter a bit when he gets shot in the face by every Riptide and Crisis suit in range the moment he hits the board.

[Crimson Devil]

Given everything GW has done over the past year, this is what you complain about? Seriously?

[Zynk Kaladin]

BTW, seeing as this is the BA subforum, let's talk about what should really scare you- the Interceptor upgrade.

Now when you deepstrike, you won't stop til you're a good six feet under ground. Dante's ax won't matter a bit when he gets shot in the face by every Riptide and Crisis suit in range the moment he hits the board.

This. Ugh.

[Blindhamster]

I don't have my book to hand, are the battlesuits/riptide still required to be in range to use interceptor? or could I simply deepstrike outside their range?

[redmapa]

their minimum range 36'' and max 72'',  you cant be outside their range, why would you even DS 37'' away from an enemy unit?

[Leonaides]

THere's a joke in there somewhere about deepstriking assault marines and roads...

[Firepower]

THere's a joke in there somewhere about deepstriking assault marines and roads...

Why did Dante deepstrike across the road?

 

Because what was left of him had to land somewhere, after all.

 

Funny how a veteran of 1000 years gets trumped by a few years of Tau R&D ;)

[Ushtarador]

haha, that's why you shouldn't play dante, especially versus Tau :P

 

Mephiston, Stormravens and Fragiosos are awesome enough, sure other codices might have cooler/cheaper toys, but I don't feel we are horribly outclassed at all. In fact, most people at my LGS can't deal with my BA army if I bring a competitive list. We might have it harder than others, but I take that as a challenge - no codex will autowin against BA if you are a skilled player.

 

Stop whining and start dealing with it, we are not DT/Sororitas-level by far ;)

[d503]

Focus more on basic troops, not the ability of shiny toys.

 

It's not the fancy HQ that wins the game, it's the tactical squad that sits on an objective.

 

Maximise number of basic bodies n the field, and win through attrition. Play marines like you would play guard, and you are far more resilient to the fickleness of codex creep and edition changes.

 

A RAS with HQ, 3 tactical squads and a devastatior squad (plus assorted extras) will weather the new shiney codex whatever it is.

[ianj253]

I'd take an ASM's mobility and statline over a kroots AP5 ccw and statline any day.

Don't expect any changes anytime soon, as Faeits212's long term release order has BA being the last codex redone. It was rumored to be out sometime in 2015

I would rather Kroot be AP5 in melee than have count-as having 2xCCW. Because now they only have 1 attack.

As for the BA Codex being outdated, well it is a blessing and a curse. Do you really think Mephiston is going to remain as good as he is now in our next Codex? Mephiston is an example of 'Ability Creep.'

I personally don't see Mephiston getting nerfed too hard. Similarly powerful characters like Abbadon and the Blood thirster were made better if anything. Yet, this could just be denial caused by my crutch .

If you want look at a codex that truly has something to whine about look at the Eldar codex. Lets compare Eldar Jet bikes to DE Jet Bikes. For the same amount of points, 22, A DE Reaver has a better WS, BS, I, Gets a fly over attack similar to vector strike, has a poisoned weapon, combat drugs, night vision and skilled rider. Now that's a disparity worth protesting!