Once Again GW Kicks Marines To the Curb

[CM_Seth]

Consistency is not one of GW's strong suits when it comes to special rules and armies, and a lot of time rules are written as much for theme as for use, without much regard for what other armies can, could, or should be able to do. If a Kroot Rifle is AP 5, why not a Chainsword? What about wicked Dark Eldar blades, claws and fangs, and more? There are only so many AP values to go around. If a longer stick gives me +2 Initiative (Grey Knight Halberds), why don't all those Eldar spears and Power Lances do the same? Why can Imperial Guard give orders that ramp up their shooting exponentially, but other armies capable of verbal communication and commands don't triple tap their rapid fire weapons after a barked command, or get back into the fight at the drop of a pin?

These questions are just to prove a point. I don't actually have a problem with most of the above nor anything similar (with some exceptions; those Grey Knight halberds).
 

There's a certain poetic irony to see any Space Marine player lament about being outcreeped and marginalized by Tau. Tau, who have been the laughing stock of the game for quite a long while now. Tau had to deal with a lot worse, for a lot longer, than their melee weapons being slightly less effective at penetrating armor. You have a ton of reasons to be concerned about Games Workshop's handling of game balance and could definitely make arguments about Games Workshop stepping on your hobby and your investment, but over this issue out of so many is a mountain born of a molehill if I've ever seen one.

 

Blood Angels' time will come, just like the Tau's. And knowing GW's love of Marines, it won't take nearly as long as it did for the Tau.

[Taranis]

BTW, seeing as this is the BA subforum, let's talk about what should really scare you- the Interceptor upgrade.  :devil:

 

Now when you deepstrike, you won't stop til you're a good six feet under ground.  Dante's ax won't matter a bit when he gets shot in the face by every Riptide and Crisis suit in range the moment he hits the board.

BTW, seeing as this is the BA subforum, let's talk about what should really scare you- the Interceptor upgrade.  :devil:

 

Now when you deepstrike, you won't stop til you're a good six feet under ground.  Dante's ax won't matter a bit when he gets shot in the face by every Riptide and Crisis suit in range the moment he hits the board.

Interceptor is at the END of the of the movement phase and REQUIRE line of sight and range. Sure it can hurt, but that was said about overwatch as well.

 

Everything has a price. If the opponent has invested in a large interceptor ability start your army on the ground. Play the army, not the "routines" you might have planned.

Adapt and overcome. :) flexibility. :)

[SamaNagol]

This gradual creep is why I believe they should do yearly erratas and FAQs for existing codices, especially the power-armoured ones to bring them all into line.

 

Brand new codices should just be for introducing new units etc

[Taranis]

This gradual creep is why I believe they should do yearly erratas and FAQs for existing codices, especially the power-armoured ones to bring them all into line.

 

Brand new codices should just be for introducing new units etc

That would be nice!

[dswanick]

 

This gradual creep is why I believe they should do yearly erratas and FAQs for existing codices, especially the power-armoured ones to bring them all into line.

 

Brand new codices should just be for introducing new units etc

That would be nice!

But that would be counter to GW's financial policy - release the new uber-codex, band-wagoners flock to the new army, sales soar, when sales wane - release a newer, shinier uber-codex, when sales fail to spike as much as hoped - release a new rulebook which completely nerfs all the current popular units and tactic and makes some different units uber to drive sales.

[SamaNagol]

That's not their policy, it's just an internet myth.... Otherwise Chaos Daemons and Dark Angels would have been better than the Grey Knights and IG books.

[dswanick]

That's not their policy, it's just an internet myth.... Otherwise Chaos Daemons and Dark Angels would have been better than the Grey Knights and IG books.

So GW can't fail in its execution? But that's neither here nor there - C:DA is the current "uber-marine" book as evidenced by this and other (White Scars count-as C:DA) threads. Not all SM players were going to be enticed to move to C:GK. C:IG is the proof of the uber-rules change part of the policy (Flyers), not the codex-creep part of the policy. ;)

[ianj253]

DA definitely aren't the "uber-marine book". Codex creeps pretty much dead just take a look at all the 6th ed codices.

[SamaNagol]

Codex IG is't proof of the rules change part, because IG were top tier in 5th!

 

And DA aren't even top 2 Marine dex, let alone the best one. They're arguably 3rd with BA.

 

Only thing I envy in the DA book is their wargear list, their cheap devastators and their Librarians

[Memento Of Prospero]

I have been hearing that Kroot rifles act as AP 5 weapons in CC. Can someone confirm this? And if this is true, why the are chain swords AP - ? Once again space marines are looking more and more blah and middle of the road at best. Surely a chainsword is as deadly as a rifle butt in Close Combat right? Chainswords are designed specifically for CC, unlike Kroot Rifles, which are at best a hybrid weapon.

Also I know for a fact that Commander Farsight is 60 points cheaper then Commander. Dante, has the same DS special rule, and can strike S5 AP 2 just like Dante, but at his normal initiative... This is terribly unfair and frustrates me alot. I put in a polite request to the GW FAQ e-mail to remove Unwieldly from Dante's axe, this would atlest make some sort of sense and restore a modicum or equality. I urge the rest of the community to do the same (in a calm and reputable tone, supported by thought out evidance, not just ranting)

This is by far the most ridiculous rant I've heard about the new Tau codex.

[IK Viper]

Tau are supposed to be really good at shooting, and they are. I don't grudge them for that, and I also think that alot of their units are pointed well in order to insure that they are on par with other 6th ed books.  I like most of the things they have becasue it brings in alot of new units/ tactics/special rules to the game, I just don't understand how Tau units get AP but Assault marines don't, Tau are not known for their CC ability, specially when compared to marines of any type. 

 

The Tau are good but very beatable.  I have already beat the Farsight and Friends list and it hurts but those units are very expensive and once you work through them they have little else in the backfield to support. 

 

I play this game to simulate futuristic combat.  To that end, I like my 40k to make logical sense.  Kroot getting CC AP 5 is hard to understand when you compare them to many other weapons/ units in the game.  I play Imperial armies and so the most obvious comparison is to a chainsword.  I am not complaining from a game balance stand point at all, AP 5 Kroot will never effect any army I ever field, it just seams arbitrary. 

 

In my head when the codex was being written there should be some consideration of "how does this ability compare with other units in the game?" as well as "does this make sense or is this rule completely counter to the extensive body of fluff about the universe?"

[I am Legion]

It's possible that GW chose to boost them in CC is because Tau desperatly needed it.  But you're right, that AP 5 doesn't make any real sense, but keep in mind that pick weapons are meant to break through armour (Love you deadliest warrior :D).  Kroot carry pick weapons, and chainswords are slashing/tearing at best.  Certainly not made for dealing with armour.  Of course, then you can argue materials and so forth....but were assuming that kroot found some sort of ultra hard and sharpened stick from the future forests of whatever.

[Jolemai]

What is the AP of a chainaxe?

[dswanick]

What is the AP of a chainaxe?

In the hands of a Chaos Space Marine, AP4. In the hands of any loyalist Space Marine, AP-.

[knife&fork]

To that end, I like my 40k to make logical sense.

This is why I really dislike the 'fantasyfication' of 40k. It doesn't suit the scale of the game.

You can be the among the buffest, hardest, muscly humans in the galaxy and still only be S3 compared to the genetically modified superhuman that is a marine with his S4. That is unless your weapon happens to be shaped like an axe or mace instead of a blade...

Same goes for the various nemesis force weapons... If adding a 3 foot pole to your close combat weapon would grant you superhuman reflexes I kinda think you would see it more often.

[I am Legion]

See the stats issue is very simplified (between 0-10), so you're not going to get the proper balance in the statline.  Also, the variation in strength of weapons is a game balancing issue.  You see, the fact that an ax has AP 4 for some armies and not for others is to tie in certain weaknesses for some.  It's stupid, but were not that the case, then we would actually be using movie marines.

[Morollan]

Wishing for any sort of consistency or realism in this game is pretty pointless.

[Morticon]

Wow, I dont really know how to approach this thread or this concern.

I saw this sentiment so often on other Xenos sites, and now that the Xenos are finally being adequately rebalanced its doom and gloom for marines?  I dunno Viper...I cant see your side of it.  Not from a logical perspective anyway.  From a purely subjective, "i wanna have the best toys" kind of way, sure. But, considering everyone elses stake in the game and the hobby I find a sentiment like this exhibiting too many trademarks of selfishness. Not yours specifically, but rather sentiments like this. 

 

I just feel like I, as a customer, have seen my investment in to the hobby, (buying models) stepped on.  What once was a very competative army has now been reduced to below average IMO.  By doing things like this, my units are being devalued when compared to other armies.  

 

You feel your investment into the hobby being stepped on? What about other Tau players? What about those guys that have waited much longer to be anywhere remotely competitive?  When last did tau win a major tournament or even consistently factor as a considerable threat? These guys are now finally able to crawl up and out of the halls of shame and start to enjoy another  aspect of the hobby: Gaming.

This part of the hobby is also only a very small part of it.  

 

Whilst I dont believe it should be an either/or, zero-sum situation, I definitely dont believe that we've been devalued.  Inter-army comparative assessment is also incredibly dangerous and not a good measure of an armies strength. Its a good indicator of how to adjust your tactics, strategy and style, but not a good overall measure of strength and value.  

 

That being said, where i do empathize is when identical units have remarkably different values/costs.  The example of the dev squad is a good one.    Thats the only issue of concern through inter-codex comparison that i feel is justified. That being said, units are balanced internally so again- comparison becomes tough.

 

We enter into an agreement through purchase of these models and their associated rules knowing that the environment in which they are used is dynamic.  This dynamic environment will change.  The longer people play and the more years they put into the hobby, they'll realise where the true investment lies.  Veteran gamers (10years+) like myself are the perfect example of why GWs corporate model is what it is. I buy very little.  I have and occasionally use models I had in 2nd edition.  I do not spend tons on new units when a new codex comes round (except when GW starts getting clever and makes new stuff good!) because i have most of everything.  

 

This is where the value of the hobby truly shines.  Its a long term investment with all sorts of associated short, mid and long term rewards.  Im not much of a painter, not a great modeler and there's precious little I care about in the fluff besides canonical BA history. Where I get my greatest pleasure is in the gaming.  But from the start of my BA career Ive stuck it out through thick and thin, through good rules and "bad" and much, much more importantly have done so with a good deal of success in my gaming environment.  While this may sound off-puttingly self-aggrandizing the point I'm making is that if you keep at the hobby in all of its forms, keep viewing it as a long term investment, and keep working within the framework that we're bound to, then you will see rewards and greater value. 

 

In short, dont feel slighted and dont feel resent for someone else finally getting their value for their investment.  

Avoid comparing units inter-army.  It does no good and serves no purpose.

 

Let the xenos have their day. So what of it?

Let them have their buffs, their moment to shine.

So what if they have units, that are better than doing a task than certain of our units. 

So what if they have wargear or weapons that are more powerful.

Let them have their ladders to climb.

We have an arsenal of tools at our disposal with which to dispatch them. 

The higher they climb, the greater the glory when we topple them. 

[knife&fork]

See the stats issue is very simplified (between 0-10), so you're not going to get the proper balance in the statline.  Also, the variation in strength of weapons is a game balancing issue.  You see, the fact that an ax has AP 4 for some armies and not for others is to tie in certain weaknesses for some.  It's stupid, but were not that the case, then we would actually be using movie marines.

 

More of a flavor issue, I just think that it's a bad way to introduce variation. It's not a question about realism either, just an inconsistency within the system that throws you off since the stats in 40k represents a much wider range of abilities compared to fantasy .

[dswanick]

You can be the among the buffest, hardest, muscly humans in the galaxy and still only be S3 compared to the genetically modified superhuman that is a marine with his S4.

Gunny Harker is S4. And Colonel Straken is S6(thanks to bionics).

[Captain Death Crunch]

I think an important point to keep in mind is this game is about having fun. Not just for you, but also for your opponent. Tau have had to deal with an awful codex for a VERY long time. They finally got the boost they deserved. And soon some other armies will get the boost they need. Everyone wins.

 

Having more competitive and more even games makes things better, not worse. And it makes it more interesting. I've won games in 6th edition while having my butt handed to me (ending the game with only a few models left but having more VPs) that in 5th edition I probably would have won more easily. It makes it more interesting and more fun, it really does.

[redmapa]

 

I play this game to simulate futuristic combat. To that end, I like my 40k to make logical sense. 

 

40k isnt a simulation or logical, its a game that doesnt take itself too seriously

[MagicMan]

Nothing that flying Librarian Dreadnoughts can't handle, amirite?

[Firepower]

I play this game to simulate futuristic combat.  To that end, I like my 40k to make logical sense.

Like I said before, if the tabletop matched fluff, a Space Marine army would consist of roughly 15 models, they'd automatically win any assault against Guard or Tau without a loss, and a single Chaos Sorcerer would automatically destroy an entire enemy unit each turn.

 

Rules and units reflect fluff, but at a point the logic of game balance supersedes the 'logic' of fluff.

 

Also, although Tau have always been the shooty army, the Kroot have always been an assault oriented unit. That's the whole reason they were ever in Tau codex to begin with. The irony is that they're now much better at shooting than assault, and yet here we are, talking about how sharp their pointy guns might be, and what an injustice it is.

 

Seriously, this argument borders on the neurotic. Of all the things that stand out as lore breaking, counter intuitive, or just plain broken in terms of game mechanics, you pick this. Incredible.

[The Yncarne]

It does seem a silly thing to complain about given the scope of the perceived slight. But having played Tau throughout their birth until mid-fifth, I may not be objective.

 

I got the message from GW: if I don't like my codex, use another. The worst thing allies did to the game was further cement the belief that codexes don't really matter since you can always add something from one perceived as better. It is a lazy out for poor rules.

 

Frankly, I've been fantasizing about GW farming out rules to a third party. That would really shake up things in this hobby/industry.