The Inner Circle hierarchy: who knows what?

[XKhalilX]

Forgive me if this topic has been approached before. I was wanting to know the Inner Circle hierarchy and who knows what. I have gather snippets from the lexicanum. I do not play wh40k only read and write and paint. so i dont own codex.

 

from what i gathered, the chapter master of each unforgiven knows luther is alive. the reclusiarchy and librarium know the fallen exist. the deathwing and ravenwing know the fallen exist. the 3rd-10th companies do NOT know the fallen exist. does that about summarize correctly? if wrong please correct me.

 

my questions:

1)do sergeants that field squads in 3rd-10th company, do they know the existence of the fallen?

 

2) what is the knowledge difference between the deathwing and ravenwing companies? obviously the death wing know more, but I am curious as to what is known versus what is known in the ravenwing?

 

3) the masters of each company, including the 3rd-10th know the existence of the fallen and are on par with the knowledge in the deathwing?

 

4) is it possible to create a DIY chapter whereby the majority or all astartes of the chapter have knowledge of the fallen? or is that a little over the top?

 

 

i ask these questions because i am creating a DIY chapter whose parent chapter falls to chaos, and takes half the new chapter with it, and join the fallen. hence the chapter hunts the fallen of the Dark Angels AND their own fallen. this has caused them to despise and resent all other chapters of the unforgiven, including the DA themselves. their loyalty lies with themselves alone and the Emperor, and have no good natured feelings to the Unforgiven at large.

 

again forgive me if this kind of question has been asked before.

[notmattlythgoe]

Only the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels knows of Luther's existence in The Rock, the other chapter masters have no knowledge of this.

[BigGumbo]

I thought that only the Unforgiven had any knowledge of the Fallen at all, so any non-Unforgiven chapter could never consciously hunt the Fallen for the very basic reason that they don't know about them. Hunting their own "fallen" could bring them into conflict with the Unforgiven to the extent that the "fallen" and the Fallen are intermingled, and they could obviously be hunting the Fallen unwittingly, but it wouldn't be correct to say that they were specifically hunting the Fallen.

 

Oh, and in answer to your Question 3: all Company Masters are members of the Inner Circle, having served as part of the Deathwing prior to their elevation to the rank of Master.

[Dark Rage]

I thought that it was veterans who had proven their worth who got to know certain secrets about the chapter, mainly members of the Deathwing and honoured company vets and above. But I only have information from the codex not read many of the DA books from Black Library so may be different sources.

[XKhalilX]

I thought that only the Unforgiven had any knowledge of the Fallen at all, so any non-Unforgiven chapter could never consciously hunt the Fallen for the very basic reason that they don't know about them. Hunting their own "fallen" could bring them into conflict with the Unforgiven to the extent that the "fallen" and the Fallen are intermingled, and they could obviously be hunting the Fallen unwittingly, but it wouldn't be correct to say that they were specifically hunting the Fallen.

 

Oh, and in answer to your Question 3: all Company Masters are members of the Inner Circle, having served as part of the Deathwing prior to their elevation to the rank of Master.

Gumbo, my DIY are in fact DA successors. but their parent chapter succombs to chaos and convinces half my DIY chapter to join their ranks, including the original cadre of marines who were supposed to help the newly formed chapter. so my chapter not only hunts the DA fallen like all Unforgiven, but also their own brothers who thousands of years ago became "Neo-Lutherites."

[BigGumbo]

Ah, understood. As you were...

[Azoriel]

 

Only the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels knows of Luther's existence in The Rock, the other chapter masters have no knowledge of this.

 

 

 

The Codex does make that claim.  However, according to Angels of Darkness, Asmodai most certainly knows about Luther (and has no qualms about telling Astelan), and, in Ravenwing, the unspoken interchange between Sammael and Malcifer (and the lie spoken to Harahel immediately after) strongly suggest that both of them know as well.  Regardless of people saying codex fluff trumps BL, I think I prefer collective upper echelons of the Inner Circle knowing exactly what the Dark Oracle is (with the Supreme Grand Master being the only one allowed to talk to him).

[Upstartes]

1)do sergeants that field squads in 3rd-10th company, do they know the existence of the fallen?

Answer: No. I think this is spelled out somewhere, and it is pretty obviously the case in the novel "Ravenwing." In fact, when two characters unwittingly discover secrets beyond their rank - they are immediately removed from their previous assignments and handed over to one of the organizations that does know - either to be found worthy of promotion or... something else.

2) what is the knowledge difference between the deathwing and ravenwing companies? obviously the death wing know more, but I am curious as to what is known versus what is known in the ravenwing?

Answer: Again, the novel "Ravenwing" provides a lot of detail on this. The Black Knights of the Ravenwing have full knowledge of the Fallen. The remainder of the Ravenwing do not. Instead, they are aware of a cover story that is a secret from the rest of the chapter. I think (it's been a while since I read the book) that the cover story is that they hunt traitor marines (but not former Dark Angels) and that those traitors had some connection to the the death of the Lion (something that also involves a cover story).

3) the masters of each company, including the 3rd-10th know the existence of the fallen and are on par with the knowledge in the deathwing?

Answer: As was mentioned, all the company masters used to be deathwing.

4) is it possible to create a DIY chapter whereby the majority or all astartes of the chapter have knowledge of the fallen? or is that a little over the top?

Answer: It might work. Such a chapter would probably need to be a true successor chapter, and it would probably need to keep its chapter-wide knowledge of the Fallen secret from other Unforgiven. If the other Unforgiven caught wind of this, they would probably want to "plug the potential security leaks." This actually sounds like a great opportunity for fluff - a chapter with a secret it must keep from the Imperium and another secret it must keep from its own Unforgiven brothers.

[XKhalilX]

upstartes, thanks for the lesson on the unforgiven. i never read ravenwing (been away from states for over a year, back for 6 weeks).

 

what im working on is the concept of having my own successor chapter get betrayed by its own parent chapter(again another DIY). the parent chapter falls to chaos/in league with the fallen, and the initial cadre of marines seconded to the new chapter fall in line with their original chapter, joining them again. the remaining loyalists face a chapter and half of marines who have betrayed the imperium. these neo lutherites as what the loyalist remnants of the new chapter call them. the DA come in to help the loyalists. the new chapter no longer trusts any of the unforgiven, including the DA, for whom they hold responsible the damnation of all sons of the Lion. they now fight to capture both the original fallen and their own "Twice Shamed" fallen/neo-lutherites. as of now my fluff is written that the inner circles know of both the fallen and neo fallen, while the rest of the chapter is in the dark to BOTH.

 

the average joe marine in the chapter just knows "Unforgiven bad, they betrayed us in the past." but dont know the history of the betrayal. so there lookin at a double whammy when they become inner circle: "The DA betrayed themselves 10,000 years ago? Fallen DA? wait! we have our OWN traitors as well!? thats what the war 5000 years ago was about and thats why we hate our brothers" *head spininng*

 

OR I could have them know about the Fallen and Neo Fallen as a collective chapter. but id still like to have some kind of hidden knowledge in the upper echelons. just not sure what that would be.

 

OR maybe not a collective chapter of 1000 astartes knowing, but alot more then normal. say every veteran sergeant has knowledge of the Fallen or neo fallen, and as they attain ascension in the Inner Circle they learn theres two groups of Fallen, and then you get into the standard Inner Circle fluff of the DA and Unforgiven...

 

 

so advice is most welcoming

[EPK]

You've certainly ran with the circles within circles theme.

 

 

1) do sergeants that field squads in 3rd-10th company, do they know the existence of the fallen?

Answer: No. I think this is spelled out somewhere, and it is pretty obviously the case in the novel "Ravenwing." In fact, when two characters unwittingly discover secrets beyond their rank - they are immediately removed from their previous assignments and handed over to one of the organizations that does know - either to be found worthy of promotion or... something else.

 

There is a slight caveat introduced in Ravenwing to this answer. The Vet Sergeant, who also served as the commanding officer of the 3rd Company in the Master's absence, was aware of the Fallen. To what degree it was not discussed but it does open up the idea that there could be Sergeants throughout the companies that have said knowledge. In fact, it may be that they have risen through the ranks of the Deathwing and been redistributed out to the companies perhaps as adjutants to masters or even simply seperate eyes and ears for the inner circle.

[Onisuzume]

1)do sergeants that field squads in 3rd-10th company, do they know the existence of the fallen?

Short awnswer: maybe.

Long awnswer: Some sergeants have been granted the honour of serving in the Deathwing, and decided that they'd prefer to remain with their old company. Both guiding their brothers, and looking for signs that one might figure it out on their own. Back in 3rd edition, we had the option of upgrading veteran sergeants to be members of the Deathwing.

2) what is the knowledge difference between the deathwing and ravenwing companies? obviously the death wing know more, but I am curious as to what is known versus what is known in the ravenwing?

Company Master and some veterans at best, see above.

4) is it possible to create a DIY chapter whereby the majority or all astartes of the chapter have knowledge of the fallen? or is that a little over the top?

Depends on how its fluffed.

Most of my "chapter" were around during the great crusade/horus heresy, and thus would've witnessed the events first-hand and thus know about it, and decided to go "13th great company" and charged into the Eye of Terror in a blind rage (okay, so they didn't actually charge or blind rage and prepared for it, more in tone with the DA that way).

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

The question of who knows what is complex - basically, we don't know for sure.

 

Most sergeants, even veteran sergeants are unaware of the existence of the Fallen, even the RW remain relatively unaware. The only group of Astartes who know about the existence of the Fallen, and even that is limited, are the Deathwing Veterans who are chosen by the Inner Circle itself based not only on martial prowess but on the ability to handle the knowledge appropriately. 

 

Thus, it is possible that a sergeant of, say, the 6th company knows about the Fallen as he has been inducted into the Deathwing at some point and then transferred over. Key point to remember, is that the Sergeant has already been in the 1st Company. It is relevant to point out that normal Chaplains do not actually know about the Fallen either, this knowledge is reserved for Interregators.

 

The only group who know in their entirety about the Fallen is the Librarius who are inducted from the start as they can easily learn secrets as they progress in terms of the ability to rip knowledge out of the minds of people.

 

Next along the chain we have the Masters/Grandmasters of each Chapter who are aware of even more of the Fallen and the secrets of Caliban, though, unlike the Int-Chaplains they have to juggle this duty with their duty to the Imperium. Finally, we get the SGM over all the chapters who knows the second to last secret: Luther.

 

This is what we know, theres loads more possible circles, rings, levels of knowledge we have no clue about as GW hasn't told us. This includes things such as how far does the Unforgiven net stretch across the Universe/Imperium in their hunt, how many secrets are there and, of course, not even the SGM knows about the Lion lying in the Rock...

[XKhalilX]

Bohemond, great breakdown. and i had NO idea there were two groups of chaplains in the DA and Unforgiven. i was under the impression ALL chaplains were interrogater chaplains and thus all knew the truth of the fallen.

 

so of my 3 ideas of my DIY chapter, which do you think is most plausible to write fluff wise?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Bohemond, great breakdown. and i had NO idea there were two groups of chaplains in the DA and Unforgiven. i was under the impression ALL chaplains were interrogater chaplains and thus all knew the truth of the fallen.

 

so of my 3 ideas of my DIY chapter, which do you think is most plausible to write fluff wise?

 

The first option you laid out.

 

I would run with it along the lines of the first option you have, namely, that they all know about the treachery of their own Chapter and their parent Chapter, but treat them as standard traitors until they reach the Inner Circle levels which more is revealed about Luther, the original Fallen and the extrapolation between them and the original Fallen.

 

The main reason for the secrets is so the =][= doesn't find out.

[XKhalilX]

Bohemond, this fluff option?:

 

the average joe marine in the chapter just knows "Unforgiven bad, they betrayed us in the past." but dont know the history of the betrayal. so there lookin at a double whammy when they become inner circle: "The DA betrayed themselves 10,000 years ago? Fallen DA? wait! we have our OWN traitors as well!? thats what the war 5000 years ago was about and thats why we hate our brothers" *head spininng*

 

so the average marine doesnt know anything, just knows their parent chapter betrayed them and fell to chaos taking along some of the chapter with them when chapter initially created, calling the traitors "Shamed Ones". then beginnings of inner circle they learn not only did they betray the chapter, they fell to chaos. then in time they learn about the standard DA stuff, and learn the shamed ones are in fact called twice shamed due to the fall of the original DA.

 

hows that sound?

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

Bohemond, this fluff option?:

 

the average joe marine in the chapter just knows "Unforgiven bad, they betrayed us in the past." but dont know the history of the betrayal. so there lookin at a double whammy when they become inner circle: "The DA betrayed themselves 10,000 years ago? Fallen DA? wait! we have our OWN traitors as well!? thats what the war 5000 years ago was about and thats why we hate our brothers" *head spininng*

 

so the average marine doesnt know anything, just knows their parent chapter betrayed them and fell to chaos taking along some of the chapter with them when chapter initially created, calling the traitors "Shamed Ones". then beginnings of inner circle they learn not only did they betray the chapter, they fell to chaos. then in time they learn about the standard DA stuff, and learn the shamed ones are in fact called twice shamed due to the fall of the original DA.

 

hows that sound?

 

That was pretty much my thinking - except...the term Unforgiven is what we use in relation to ourselves as loyalist, we are unforgiven of our shame until every traitor repents.

[Brother Immolator]

Yep, the way you used the term got me confused. I thought you had the DA betray your chapter and I was like its all confusing :D

THe unforgiven are not the traitors. We call ourselves (the loyalists) as such due to our secret shame of the betrayal.

Until every single traitor is found and made to repent or die in the attempt we cannot be absolved.