Roma Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 Ok at first glance, it is a must have. However: everyone and their mother knows the enemy will have fliers more armies are getting strong anti-flier imperial guard allies (for everyone these days ><) troll you with officer of the fleet. Do you think, therefore, that competetive lists can get away with not using them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
derpasaurus Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 You don't NEED one, but "strong anti-flier" is no reason NOT to take one. Remember, even if it's hit by skyfire, it still has a 5++ and It Will Not Die. Just hope you don't get 6s rolled on pens. Or if you do, hope you scatter onto your enemies infantry. lol, that's always hilarious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 You can make that argument for anything though - they have lots of guns, I'm taking no armour - they have lots of x, I will take y. Don't be reactionary - you want to choose the models that will get the best return (in general) and are most effective on the tabletop, in addition to those you enjoy and that suit your play style. That said - still no reason not to take one! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted April 18, 2013 Share Posted April 18, 2013 I'm a firm believer of take what you like and have fun with it, however... As you mention meta, well it depends on your meta really doesn't it? If you take a heldrake and find it doesn't do anything (due to being shot down, or your regular opponents having a 2+ save or messing with your reserve rolls) then don't take it. I take one at 1500 points and find it is generally worth it, but it all depends on several factors, such as your play style, your army, what you expect it to do and the average skill of your opponents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fibonacci Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 AV12 and 5++ means it can take a few more hits than your average flyer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellrender Posted April 19, 2013 Share Posted April 19, 2013 If you have 1 helldrake, and you find that it doesnt do anything, take 2! :D The helldrake is one of the most durable fliers out there atm. The Quad gunn needs 5's to even glance. Granted, there is a pretty decent chance even 1 glance will happen per round of fire, but then you still have the 5++. If you have 2, then your opponent will have a hard time removing them, and with baleflamers, you can just go and remove the crew of the Qguns, so they hit on BS 5 instead. Otherwise there are some other units in the Fast Attack that might suit your purposes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sception Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Before Tau, unless your group runs allies and FW content regularly, the existing anti-air options were pretty lousy at taking out armor 12 fliers, let alone daemonic armor 12 fliers with IWND. I've had players fire hydras and quad guns at a drake all the live long day without significant damage, and that's just one. Considering you can get two of them for like 350ish points? Trollsome. If FW gun emplacements are allowed, things get tricker, but other then that, IG tri-las fliers were about the only particularly effective way to drop them. Fleet master is a hassle, but post FAQ turret ruling, they never need to leave the board once they arrive. Long and the short of it is that a pair of baledrakes was basically an auto-win against any enemy relying on 3+ save infantry, and was a serious threat against lighter infantry as well, which let the rest of your army focus entirely on other things (drakes being so ridiculous at killing MEQ infantry is one of several reasons why thousand sons and warp talons are so bad - you just don't need any other anti-meq specialists with drakes around). I think it's too early to say how much the emergence of Tau will affect this issue. My guess is dual-drake will still be a default component of chaos marine lists, at least those that don't borrow heavily from allied books, but I really don't know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron_Within Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 The only time my drake has ever been shot down was because it entered hover mode on turn 5 to claim an objective. Fortunately for me it was immobilised so it just sat there being large enough that enemy units couldn't get in range (ok the Bastion with it's 4 heavy bolters, 4 autocannons, 4 Missile Launchers and Quad cannon did help). The other story is my first game against the new DA codex; I had atrocious luck, I mean firing three units of marines at a unit and getting one HIT and that failed to wound. I had moments of competence, like my Cultists managing to shoot the Terminators Sergeant dead (20 shooting at one guy should do it). My Drakes come on (two of them) and despite my bad luck, my Drakes manage to take out his scoring units allowing my lone marine to nick his objective with my objectives on my side intact. His TDA hook had me beat in the deployment zone and in terms of casualties I'd suffered way more, so in some ways a pyrrhic victory but I won none the less, and it was because his anti air units just couldn't kill my drakes and became the focus of his attention. I felt kind of bad actually, I'm partly reconsidering taking two drakes against MEQ armies as they just sweep the board. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hornywingythingy Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Yeah, its done seriously well for me in the tournie today, game one, it torched loads of devastators, bikers, vectored a storm talon, lining it up to be popped by a lucky lascannon shot, and lots of tac marines. Game two, it killed a storm raven after two vector strikes, shed loads of death company, and some scouts holding an objective. Game three it burned a shed load of orks... This thing is the reason day two I'm top of the leaderboard. Just one of them....... If I win day two, I'm using the 50 quid prize on a second one..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaeron Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 Good enough that I want at least another one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 How good is the helldrake? Is there any other non forgewold unit in the game that can damage both ground and air units in one turn and negate an entire armie's device of survivability? Im pretty sure you can find a yes answer to one of those characteristics in many places but not all three. The hell drake is a triple threat unit that is reasonably priced. It is the kind of unit that you have to game plan for if you expect to build a TAC list. Whats more the only real "solution" for it is the vendetta which requires guard... The best marine solution i can come up with is icarus las canon with prescience manned by termie librarian, combined with a las canon flier. Which is taking you way above the price of the hell drake, but may give you a chance versus two drakes. So there is no easy solution for it. The unit that is supposed to balance it in the DA book is the deathwing knight unit. Which gets ap 3 vs chaos only and can activate a strength 10 ap 2 attack once per game, it costs 235 pt and basically requires a 250pt LR to ensure delivery, and has no shooting. This is not a swipe at the helldrake or the DA codex. Merely trying to put this beast in the context of its peers. To the helldrake i say kudos, you rule the skies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nurglez Posted April 20, 2013 Share Posted April 20, 2013 The power of the heldrake at the moment is such that I will only use 1 unless I'm playing in a serious tournament. I feel that 2 is the right amount, as 3 sinks quite a lot of points off the table, one of the reasons I prefer to use 1 also (swapped it for a forgefiend as I like the model and its place on the table from the start normally). Of course I am yet to play vs Tau, and I'm itching to try them on, not a lot of time for games at the moment... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Willy Posted April 21, 2013 Share Posted April 21, 2013 It's great fun Against all armies either instant killing GEQ or just trolling tacs on objectives I personally like to vector strike a unit then blast them with the flamer just to make sure they die There hilarious in less then thousand points pick up games and since its such small points everyone in my group wants to play these quick 30 minute games to try and take it out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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