Sicarius in 6th - worth it?

[tomsev]

well its all in the title is he worth it in 6th?

[Razblood]

I'd say so.

 

The ability to ID anyone, even high toughness opponents, in a challenge. Being able to upgrade one of your squads to have Infiltrate, Scout, Counter Attack or Tank Hunters at no extra cost. Feel no pain without an Apothecary as well as a 2+ save, Rites of Battle granting your entire army his leadership of 10 no matter how far away and a higher chance of seizing the initiative.

 

6th hasn't impacted Sicarius as much as it has other characters he's still good for what he does, if anything he's even more survivable now due to the changes to power weapons :)

[DarkGuard]

Razblood is right, 6th hasn't impacted Sicarius. He was overpriced then and he still is now. The only useful thing he truly brings to the tabletop is Rites of Battle. The USRs are nice, but not great, and his combat ability still isn't that good, as I believe he's AP3. At least he has a 2+ save and FnP for challenges, but for his points, it's not great.

[Giga]

Sicarius was garbage in 5th, and he's even worse in 6th since because he's AP3 and his FNP is 5+.

 

Don't waste your points/money on him.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Downloadable e-codex gives him AP2.

 

Shame this isn't reflected in a FAQ for those without an iPad...

[Giga]

Still wounds marines on 4+. Screw that.

[jaspiongitburna]

If you can see beyond poweraxes and thunderhammer terminators etc he's an interesting character. I've found that my opponents have quickly wised up to how powerful he is though and enemy HQs now come with 2+ saves. What's your meta like? My most regular opponents are Necrons then Deathwing but after that there's dark eldar, eldar, black templars,Daemons, Tau, chaos marines etc so a varied playing field.

As far as necrons go, challenges are a no-no anyway - between Mindshackle Scarabs, 2+ saves, WBB and I2 warscythes they wreck almost any plan you can employ so i try to just shoot them now. When i've been in challenges i've tried to avoid fighting enemy HQs unless i know for sure that he overmatches them my ultimate aim is to build a decent champion to take challenges from anything too powerful or tough while sicarius fights a squad instead.

I have always tried to  run 3-4 tactical squads so he's been useful for boosting one of those too but i can't help but feel i often pick the wrong squad upgrade, (or upgrading the wrong squad) which is my own fault, but i'm getting better at this. The usual space marine style of terminators bikes and no tactical squads doesn't do anything for me - i've dabbled, made the purchases but they don't keep me coming back - they're just not for me. Likewise i have an opponent who owns a Salamander army so they have no interest for me

[DarkGuard]

The main issue is not Sicarius' lack of AP2, but rather the fact that he is overcosted, for both his combat and supportive abilities. 200pts is a steep price to pay for him, especially when for half his points cost you can have a Libby who would also be a good support character and is still decent in combat. For 10pts less than Sicarius you have Vulkan who is still better than Sicarius, and also buffs the army in a better way than him. It's the points cost that makes Sicarius a bad choice, as well as how his abilities could be better.

[Schultzhoffen]

Sadly, Sicarius is far too expensive. If you want an army buffing special character then Vulcan is probably better. Lysander is better at cc and more survivable. Shrike is decent, too.

 

A generic captain with artificer armour and a relic blade is considerably cheaper.

 

I'd like to like Sicarius but unless he becomes at least 40 to 50 points cheaper ( looking at new codex characters for a comparison) or gets much better, he stays on the shelf.

 

Off topic: poor old Tigurius is even worse/more over costed compared to the new codexes.

[Hiroitchi]

IMHO I'd try to run sicarius when possible or applicable, since I run Scouts and makes Infiltration an abundant use in my list, he seems like a solid fit.His cost is way steep, which I whole heartily agree, but making a 10 man Tac Squad in Power armor with an assault cannon Razorback as infiltrators makes em pretty worth it.

 

 

 

I outfitted my Cato as a Deathwatch Captain and the Tactical Squad contain Veteran Sergeant Haas to get relentless, seems brutal, BTW that Tac Squad is dressed as a Deathwatch Kill Team as well so I can have a viable reason for having him in my list.

[Ultra Magnus]

I think Sicarius could be useful but you would have to build your list around him to get maximum advantage out of his abilities. To my mind this would be an army that Is optimized around going first such as a drop pod heavy force, as well as one that is infantry heavy and plans to take maximum advantage of combat squadding for target saturation.

 

As for his cost it can be steep if you look at him only for his individual combat abilities as I believe he costs 55 pts. more than an similarly equipped captain. if you consider however that an infiltrating tactical squad saves 35 pts. on a Rhino, or that a drop pod tactical squad with Tank Hunters might be cheaper than the Sternguard suicide squad you were planning on using, then the gap narrows considerably.

 

I am working on building a semi-fluffy list that includes Sicarius and had some questions around the special rules that he confers, namely:

 

- When are the special USRs assigned? Can I do so after seeing my opponent's list but before deployment?

- If deployed with a tactical squad, does Sicarius also benefit from Counterattack or Tank Hunters or no?

- If I combat squad a tactical squad with an assigned USR (say Tank Hunters out of a drop pod) do they both retain it or do I have to choose only one?

 

Any help appreciated!

[Ishagu]

He's very good. A powerful character, best to lead from the front as he is hard to kill. Tac Squad with Plasmas and Infiltrate? Stuff is going to die. Tank hunters? That is great also. Initiative 10 all around, by the end of the game you'll be glad for it!

 

His coup de grace is AP2 in the latest version of the Codex, and even if you don't have a copy to hand, it's not like we all carry multiple FAQs around with us everywhere we go!

[DarkGuard]

And despite all of GW's efforts, he's still overpriced, sadly. :(

[Ishagu]

Don't get me wrong, Vulkan is the best choice if you field an army that takes advantage of the rules he brings.

 

And if you wanted to pwn in close combat Lysander and Calgar do it better too...

[Robert2004]

Interesting topic as I have been debating a big character purchase for my army, sitting at 3,800 points without a character to lead it! About time I got one, have been leaning towards this guy or lysander... what do you guys think would be the best option?

[eiglepulper]

Although I have seen Lysander in action, soaking up punishment with his Terminator armour and using his ability to re-roll failed to-hit rolls for everything that has "bolt-" in its name, I have faced Sicarius on a number of occasions and have always come off worst against him. He has a board-wide leadership bubble, plus the other advantages which have already been noted by other members here.

 

All the special characters have their own particular niche though, so find one that suits your army style and which will bring advantages for the majority of your units.

 

E.

[WarriorFish]

I run Sicarius fairly often as my commander, having converted a nice counts as model for him I like using. I see him as more akin to how all Marine commanders should be - tough in combat and more importantly buffing his army. The Leadership bonus and Tactical boost is what really ticks my box, but you could easily argue all Marine Captain/Masters should have the Leadership rule.

 

I agree with DarkGuard that he's too expensive even though he works well in my armies, but sometimes sacrifices must be made. Captains should be more than just a face puncher.

[DarkGuard]

HQs should often be something more than a face hitter. That's why we have the Librarian and MotF, who are both much cheaper. For Captain like units, Vulkan and Pedro often offer better benefits than Sicarius does.

[UnkyHamHam]

I think I will just point out two very important (IMHO) things nobody has mentioned.  He doesn't take away Combat Tactics and he gives you access to a Command Squad.

 

Now I know those things are obvious, but when you start comparing him to Librarians, Masters of the Forge, Pedro, and Vulkan...  I find I miss those things.  No Chapter Tactics can replace Combat Tactics in my eyes :)  And I love Command Squads.  Most versatile unit in the book!  Pricey, but properly and efficiently tooled for particular jobs/missions/operations, these guys can work wonders.

 

Obviously generic Captains can fulfill these things too.  Cheaper!   But then you miss out on Rites of Battle, 2nd Company Vets, and his special gear.  

 

I find him to be my absolute favorite Marine character to ever grace a 3+ codex.  But thats just me.

[Stickeh]

Anyone else think the FW legion praetor in PA would make a great Sicarius stand in? Looks better than the official one IMO, and no fine cast to boot!

 

Edit: typo

[Ishagu]

Nah. Sicarius has a unique helmet and hairstyle that makes him stand out. I do know the Praetor you speak of however, and that is a pretty cool model.

[Dam13n]

This has made me consider Sicarius again as a HQ choice.

 

I can't help but think:

 

Sicarius

 

10 Tactical Marines

- Sergeant with Combi-melta

- Meltagun

- Missile Launcher

- Tank Hunters

Razorback

- Twin-linked Assault Cannon

 

Aegis Defence Line

- Quad-gun

 

Combat squad the Tactical Squad

Put the 5 with the Missile Launcher on the Quad-gun

Put the other 5 in the Razorback (plus Sicarius if you like)

 

You then have as an intercept - 4 S7 shots at BS4 with re-rolls to hit and re-rolls to penetrate - that'll even ruin an AV12 flyers day.

Followed by a Krak Missile on your own turn with re-rolls to penetrate - great for knocking out a transport (even if it's just a shake/stun)

 

Plus you have a good heavy-vehicle cracker in the tank hunting melta/combi-melta portion of the unit riding around in a Razorback with arguably the best armament for mid-range firepower.

 

True the Razorback won't gain Tank Hunters (it would be awesome if it did) but it's still a decent way of getting those meltas across the table.

[WarriorFish]

That's a pretty good idea, there is a topic on using Sicarius in 6th which is worth a read so it might be worth you taking your idea there. Generally speaking the consensus is that he's expensive and pipped by some of the other characters (Vulkan He'everywhere...). I like him because he functions as a Captain should with his Leadership enhancement and is pretty good in combat, but I agree with the opinion that he should be cheaper.

[Ultra Magnus]

Dam13n - I like the concept and was thinking along similar lines. The other idea I had was to leverage Sicarius's

propensity to go first and use them in a drop pod hybrid list. Basically on turn 1 I would drop-

 

Tactical squad (all melta) with Tank Hunters

Ironclad Dreadnought

 

The idea would be to combat squad them and use them Sternguard style to kill an armored target or two and then create a fire base of sorts to tie the enemy up while the rest of my force advanced upfield. Sicarius would drop from reserves with attendent command squad where they could do the most good.

 

The only question I am noodling is whether points/effect wise, Sternguard and/or some Vulkan combo would be more effective than the tank hunters + Sicarius combo. On turn one I could only fire the 2 meltas and snap fire the multi-melta. Not sure how the re-rolls compare to the 5 combo shots in a 5 man Sternguard squad...

[WarriorFish]

That's very similar to how I've often ran a list, it's good for turning Tacs into a more dangerous tank hunting unit and as you'd expect takes down enemy armour in short order. That said I often take Sterns in the list too and won't take Vulkan so it should probably be considered as a good way of running some Tacs and focusing them a bit rather than anything else.

 

As long as you run the rest of your army as a support to this plan (usually means advancing on the enemy) then not only will they do a lot better but you'll also find that the tank or two the enemy lost to their Turn 1 strike tips the balance in your favour all the sooner.