Denoting veterancy

[appiah4]

Back in the 3d edition days, sergeants would denote veterancy through banner colors; Black on Red for Sergeant, Red on Black for veteran sergeant.  Banners are mostly a thing of the past now.  I keep them on my 3rd (and some of my 4th) edition units, but ever since 5th Edition (even) I have moved on to adding iconography in place of a banner on most of my characters..

 

So the question is, as Blood Angels, how do we denote veterancy for Sergeants? (Yes I know we can't take non-veteran sergeants, but still..) Golden helmets crossed my mind, since that's pretty much what sets Honor Guard, Sternguard and Vanguard apart from the rest.  But these are not just veterans, they are the best that the chapter veterans have to offer, in my opinion.

 

So what I thought of was, how about a white helmet?  Maybe with a red laurel painted on?  Do you think it would look cool on our Sergeants?  Has anyone tried this?

[nurglespuss]

Why not :) sounds good to me!

 

Perhaps go back to 1st / 2nd ed and use helmet stripes? Or use art work like this:

 

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-DRNlJKhGgDo/TcAppZwbnLI/AAAAAAAAAJ8/Lsge8BTlOxE/s1600/BloodAngelsWallpaper_1024.jpg

 

Check out the guy between the assault cannon and chaplain.

 

Be interesting to see how a white helmet might look....

[Coopervisor]

I thought the current method was that Sergeants have reversed shoulder pad colours? So red trim, with a black centre. 

 

GW use this on their BA troops: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440190a&prodId=prod900148a

[Kaptejn]

I noticed that in my tactical unit box there's a shoulderpad without the "frame" and instead has a small number of hightened dots. That's what i'm using for my sergeants. Who are those shoulderpads intended for? 

[spiros14]

Those are Corvus Pattern Shoulder pads, they go on the left shoulder and add to the Baddassery of the model.

[Kaptejn]

Okay, but any squadmember can have 'em and not just the Sergeant?

[I am Legion]

I cant recall where i saw it but it was awesome. Blood angels haves bleached bone painted arm section. U know, the one the connects to the wrist....that part....cant think of the name (at work amd got a million things on my mind)

[Boomkapow]

Well since honor guard and veterans have gold helmets, you could do that with all the veterans / vet. sarges. Also, I love the stripe down the center of the helmet idea. Great thread.

[appiah4]

I cant recall where i saw it but it was awesome. Blood angels haves bleached bone painted arm section. U know, the one the connects to the wrist....that part....cant think of the name (at work amd got a million things on my mind)

 

Forearm?  Elbow pad?

[Emperors Immortals]

Ulna / Radius probably.

 

Due to fluff reasons, my BH will actually be using white for Sgt. and white w/ red laural for vet sarge, with banners and reversed shoulder pads. Cool look imo :).

 

the studded pads were originally made during the heresy due to restricted materials for admech to manufaacture new suits and reinforces the armour pieces, worn on the facing shoulder (ie left) it offers greater protection to incoming fire.

 

The fact it increased kewl by up to 28% led to its continued use.

[I am Legion]

Forearm....thank you

[Quixus]

Kaptejn, on 19 Apr 2013 - 22:03, said:

Okay, but any squadmember can have 'em and not just the Sergeant?

Yup, but due to the whole "older was better" fluff, I think MK VI parts are more likely to be found on sergeants. The other parts in the GW boxes are the legs without detached kneepads and the beakie helmet. I don't recall there being MK VI specific breastplates or arms.

 

Here's the whole suit (Forgeworld though).

[Black_Sky]

They are of inferior quality to more recent and older versions.

 

The studded shoulder pad was made by the adeptus mechanicus as a stop-gap measure, in order to produce vast amount of marine equipment during the hectic years of the Horus Heresy. They are merely composite layers bolted together (the 'studs').

 

They go on the left shoulder, as when a marine fires his bolter, his head is turned left. He is then less aware of his right. In order to protect better from flankers and ambushes, the more protective and advanced shoulderpad were used on the shoulder with least spatial awareness.

 

In modern 40k, they are given to veterans, or highly respected marines, since old suits often have millenia of history, and are associated with protecting their wearers, despite being of inferior quality.

 

Superstition is a bitch.

[Quixus]

They are of inferior quality to more recent and older versions.

Not necessarily inferior but not better and more easily produced.

 

They go on the left shoulder, as when a marine fires his bolter, his head is turned left. He is then less aware of his right. In order to protect better from flankers and ambushes, the more protective and advanced shoulderpad were used on the shoulder with least spatial awareness.

I agree with your assessment of the situation but not with your appraisal of the capabilities of the shoulder pads. The non-studded pad is just as good/bad as the studded one minus the studs. So they put the inferior pad on the shoulder which is less likely to receive incoming fire as it is turned away from the enemy due to the stance you described.

[Black_Sky]

Not my reasoning for the stance versus incoming fire, that part is all gw reasoning. Personally, i would put the heaviest armour on the facing that is most likely to point towards the enemy.

Also, they are of inferior quality. The materials are mass produced and bolted together. Previous and later shoulderpads are 'hand'-crafted, incorporates electronics and other high tech stuff. The scarcity of materials during the hectic years might even have prevented some layers that mightve been included in other designs.

The markV was in almost every way a lower tech, stop-gap measure, to provide the loyalists with enough equipment to stand against the traitors. The mark VI, Corvus, were clean and higher tech, the mark VII removed a lot of open vulnerabilities, like exposed cables. The mark VIII added a few protective features, like the neckguard often found on sergeants.

It is wrong that older-is-better. Marine armour have improved along the timeline. The only step back came with the mark V, and the need to produce cheap replacements. This was during the heresy.

[Quixus]

Not my reasoning for the stance versus incoming fire, that part is all gw reasoning. Personally, i would put the heaviest armour on the facing that is most likely to point towards the enemy.

Could you tell me where GW wrote this?

Also, they are of inferior quality. The materials are mass produced and bolted together. Previous and later shoulderpads are 'hand'-crafted, incorporates electronics and other high tech stuff. The scarcity of materials during the hectic years might even have prevented some layers that mightve been included in other designs.

Mass production does not necessarily mean inferior protective value. IIRC even the studded shoulder pads where auto-reactive.

The markV was in almost every way a lower tech, stop-gap measure, to provide the loyalists with enough equipment to stand against the traitors. The mark VI, Corvus, were clean and higher tech, the mark VII removed a lot of open vulnerabilities, like exposed cables. The mark VIII added a few protective features, like the neckguard often found on sergeants.

I thought we were talking about the Corvus pattern i.e. Mark VI. The Mark V though has shoulder pads that look (nearly) identical, but since the studded pads on any GW sprue would be the only Mark V piece, I assume that it is a Mark VI studded pad.

[Black_Sky]

The Mark VI on forgeworlds homepage you've linked, are specifically stated to carry mark V shoulders

The studded left shoulder pad, taken from the previous MkV pattern, commemorates the glory of those heroes who stood at the Eternity Gate alongside the Emperor himself

You were primarily arguing about the properties of the Corvus pattern. While I were bitching about the Heresy pattern. I beleive we were talking past each other slightly.

Unfortunately, I cannot point to any posts or sources containing information about the armour marks. I'm merely re-stating what much more background savvy people have written on this board over the years. And more importanly, what bits and pieces have stuck in my fuzzy brain.

But I did a quick check on the lexicanum page about power armours, and it appears I was mistaken, or retconned out of old fluff.

The molecular bonding studs, as seen on mark V armour, were used to incorporate some defensive materials, designed to add increased protection against the penetrative capabilities of the space marines weapons. These materials proved too heavy to incorporate on all parts of the armour, necessitating increased power supplies, which would require more plating. thus rendering that option forfeit. As is, only those points most likely (retcon) to face towards your visible foe were upgraded.

I were very young when I read about the studded pads the first time, so i might very well have been mistaken

At any rate, the studs actually represent increased protective value, making me look sheepish

Lexicanum also states that mark V is not a proper serialised suit, but a designation given to an ad-hoc combining of older and newer parts, including non-standard variations created by the legions. Later given the designation as mark V, simply to unify the vast differences between armours during the heresy.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Power_armour#.UXOcupPU-Uk

What I'm raving on about though, is about the comment "older is better". Apart from the mark V 'Heresy', power armour have continually progressed in effectivenes. It is more stagnation of innovation, than regression of technology.

[nurglespuss]

Any othr thoughts about veterancy?

[Quixus]

What I'm raving on about though, is about the comment "older is better". Apart from the mark V 'Heresy', power armour have continually progressed in effectivenes. It is more stagnation of innovation, than regression of technology.

I stand corrected.

Any othr thoughts about veterancy?

Not technically veterancy, but there are those tiny crosses with a skull in the middle, which I think denote terminator honors on PA marines, on the SM commander sprue. Who but a veteran would have terminator honors? There are also PA Shoulder Pads with the Crux on them in the PA thunder hammer pack.

 

Another implicit sign may be the Deathwatch shoulder pads. Anyone who has worked for that organization and has come back deserves veteran status, if he has not had it before joining.

[bupoorafe]

I paint my Vet Sergeants shoulder pads reversed as well as giving them silver helmets for tactical and assault squads.  For Vet assault squads they all have silver helmets apart from the leader of the squad who I give a gold helmet.  Whenever possible I avoid helmetless models!  I would agree thought that under current fluff as the tactical squads are where blood angels end up last and are the most experienced marines my colour pattern does not really fit, but it still looks good on the table!     

[Demoulius]

I think of the few instances where "older is better" marine armour isent the case. Most weapons and imperial navy ships do fall into that category if im not mistaken... That said the imperium is still capable of new discoveries and innovation, just at an incredible slow pace....

I generally try to give my veterans more ornate helmets, backpacks etc etc to show theyre veterancy. Sometimes a bare head gives it away or the fact that theyre carrying power weapons I personaly dont have a fixed appearance for my veterans. I like to think that they are given some freedom by the chapter to develop an own icongraphy just like a captain has its own icon and such.

As for helmet colours: white was used on apothecaries if my mind is not failling me mind everyone can paint them what colour they like...

[Zynk Kaladin]

I thought the current method was that Sergeants have reversed shoulder pad colours? So red trim, with a black centre. 

 

GW use this on their BA troops: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440190a&prodId=prod900148a

 

If I were Blood Angels, I would do this.

 

Personally, my Night Angel veterans wear gold trim on their pauldrons and vambraces.  I don't know how well it looks on red, but it looks great on dark blue.  The more gold trim, the higher the veterancy up to sanguinary guard (every piece of their armor is gold trimmed).

[appiah4]

I thought the current method was that Sergeants have reversed shoulder pad colours? So red trim, with a black centre. 

 

GW use this on their BA troops: http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?catId=cat440190a&prodId=prod900148a

 

They do, but reversed shoulderpads are a sign of rank not veterancy.  Think of it like this, what I plan is:

 

Normal Marine: Red shoulderpad, Red/yellow/blue helmet

Veteran Marine: Red shoulderpad, White helmet

Sternguard/Vanguard/Honor Guard: Red Shoulderpad, Gold helmet

Sergeant: Black shoulderpad, Red/yellow/blue helmet

Veteran Sergeant: Black Shoulderpad, white helmet

Sterguard/Vanguard Sergeant: Black Shoulderpad, gold helmet

[Coopervisor]

 

 

 

 

What I'm raving on about though, is about the comment "older is better". Apart from the mark V 'Heresy', power armour have continually progressed in effectivenes. It is more stagnation of innovation, than regression of technology.

 

Isn't it said in a couple of different sources that Mark IV is actually the pinnacle of Power Amour? If that is said about the Crusade, Heresy and Scouring eras, maybe it means Marks I through VI, but VII and VIII are more advanced?

 

Even the Tartaros TDA armour is said to be based on/share design with IV and again is the best performing TDA mark?

[Black_Sky]

The mark IV was envisioned the pinnacle of power armours at the time of the heresy. The Mark VI was a long term development project. Its prototyping began just before the heresy began to unfold. The Raven guard field tested it and was fully equipped in Mark VI some time after the heresy, in order to commemorate their unwillingness to bow down to defeat after the Isstvan V massacre. And their role in perfecting that design.

The Mark VII was the end result of the Mark VI design, and developed during the heresy on earth. The Mark VIII f.

 

From lexicanum.

 

 Mark VI armour offered no better protection-levels than the Mark IV, but incorporated more efficient internal systems where power-routing and auto-sense were concerned. Power systems were given back-up reduncancies with no increase in weight, while both olfactory and auditory sensors were improved. Additionally, the armour featured the best stealth capabilities of all power armour marks so far designed,^[6] as well as a new method of compartmentalising components that allowed them to be swapped out with pieces from previous marks with ease.^[1] It is the lightest variant of power armour and featured dual technology circuits that allowed the replacement of rare or sophisticated parts with common or basic alternatives. It also included fail-safes such as duplicate power cabling. ^[8]