best build for assault squad sarg

[Syphid]

Why the devil do people keep saying you can only take one Melee weapon upgrade? Where is that rule in our Codex?

 

 

Many models, such as squad sergeants, are given the option of taking weapons from the Melee Weapons list and/or Ranged weapons list.  The Melee Weapons lists states: "A model can replace one weapon with one of the following:" (emphasis mine)

 

And in accordance with the FAQ/Errata, Company Vets can only replace their bolt gun with a melee weapon.  And they also can't take Thunder Hammers for some reason...

[Bryan Blaire]

You can only have one of each Relic. A single model can bear more than one. It doesn't say any where "can take only one weapon", it simply says "replace one weapon with one of the following". There is nothing that says how many times you can do this.

 

The entries all say "make take items from the list, list and/or list sections" and the rule for options is that "where an option option states you may exchange one weapon and/or another, you may replace either or both, provided you pay the points cost for each". You may cycle through that list more than once to take different weapons. The only reason you can't take two ranged weapons for a Sgt is that no one really has a CCW listed, except the scout sergeant, so you can only exchange the bolt pistol for a new ranged weapon. A Sgt has to exchange his bolter for a melee weapon.

 

Again, there is no rule that reads "You may only use a Wargear list once."

 

And in accordance with the FAQ/Errata, Company Vets can only replace their bolt gun with a melee weapon.  And they also can't take Thunder Hammers for some reason...

Except there is no accordance because the entry for the Company Veterans actually only says "bolt gun" and nothing else. That has no application to an entry that doesn't specify "bolt gun". They can't take Thunder Hammers specifically because they don't have an entry for them. They don't use the Melee Weapons war gear table.

[Syphid]

You can only have one of each Relic. A single model can bear more than one. It doesn't say any where "can take only one weapon", it simply says "replace one weapon with one of the following". There is nothing that says how many times you can do this.

 

The entries all say "make take items from the list, list and/or list sections" and the rule for options is that "where an option option states you may exchange one weapon and/or another, you may replace either or both, provided you pay the points cost for each". You may cycle through that list more than once to take different weapons. The only reason you can't take two ranged weapons for a Sgt is that no one really has a CCW listed, except the scout sergeant, so you can only exchange the bolt pistol for a new ranged weapon. A Sgt has to exchange his bolter for a melee weapon.

 

Again, there is no rule that reads "You may only use a Wargear list once."

 

If the Melee Weapons list was worded like the Ranged Weapons list I would agree with you, but it isn't.  The Melee Weapons list doesn't say "you may exchange one weapon and/or another"  it says "you may exchange one weapon".  You can't exchange your bolt gun for a lightning claw then exchange your bolt pistol for a lightning claw, because that would be exchanging two weapons.  You can exchange the same weapon multiple times if you want, but there would be no point.

[Quixus]

What entry are you talking about?

The Space Marine Sergeant or Veteran Sergeant may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons sections of the wargear list.

So you can take (not replace) more than one item form either list.

A model can replace one weapon with one of the following:

This tells us that the exchange is on a one for one basis and that you can replace both ranged and melee weapons (since it does not specify the type). It does not say that you may only do that exchange once. Since the Sergeant has a bolt pistol and a chainsword he can exchange either or both for any item on the list, even one of the same type (i.e two lightning claws).

[Syphid]

If that were the case the list would say "replace bolt pistol and/or boltgun with one of the following" like the Ranged Weapons list does, allowing you to freely swap between ranged and melee weapons.  But it doesn't.  Each list specifies how many weapons a model can replace with one from the list.  The reason "items" is pluralized is because they are referring to multiple lists of items, and does not preclude the rules of the lists themselves.

[BigGumbo]

@Quixus and @BryanBlaire

 

If you do the replacement twice, has that model replaced one weapon with one list item or two weapons with two list items? Which of these options is allowed by the Codex?

[Bryan Blaire]

The Melee Weapon list is only mutually exclusive for one weapon amongst itself. It doesn't specify exchange rules amongst the actual unit entry itself. If it was that way, it would specify, as the Chapter Relics list does, that such a selection may be taken only once, once for a unit, etc.

 

The fact is, neither side can actually prove they are right, because the rules are unclear. Fact is, the main rule book actually gives a way to decide things like this in a game, you roll off, assuming you can't agree.

 

BigGumbo: when I make a Sergeant, I choose to replace the bolt pistol with a lightning claw using the rule "One weapon may be replaced with one of the following:". I have taken one item from the Melee Weapons wargear list AND I choose to replace the bolt gun with a lightning claw, and have followed the rules of the Melee Weapon wargear list to the letter. At no time did I replace two weapons with one, or replace one weapon with two. I have also followed the rules to the letter of the entry that says "May take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons list" because I have chosen to only take weapons from the Melee Weapons list. I will agree that you can exchange one weapon fr one at a time, but nothing in that list says "You can only exchange one" in that listing and the entry in the character options actually say "and/or", which has already been defined in the book as either or both, etc.

 

If you choose to limit yourselves and your opponents, that's fine. I don't, and neither does my game group.

[Brother Immolator]

I am with Bryan on this one, for whatever its worth it.

[elphilo]

I am with Bryan on this one, for whatever its worth it.

Ditto

 

assaulting no, drive by bbqs yes... maybe il bump it up to a 10man... or like i said above switch to vets and throw in some power weapons... im just pointinng out that for 105pts we can get 3 flamers in a rhino... rather cheap...

Really? Rhinos aren't really worth it IMO. They die too easily and give up first blood. The only way they work is if you're screening it, but you'll still probably get that Rhino popped anyway. . . .

 

If you're taking an assault squad you should leave the Jet Packs on. While that free Rhino might be tempting, it will most likely give your opponent first blood, oh and take the possibility of Hammer of Wrath attacks away from you. I like the idea of rolling up and BBQing face, I just don't think its that practical. You're giving up a lot of mobility for a gimmick :(

[Brother Immolator]

I am with Bryan on this one, for whatever its worth it.

Ditto

>assaulting no, drive by bbqs yes... maybe il bump it up to a 10man... or like i said above switch to vets and throw in some power weapons... im just pointinng out that for 105pts we can get 3 flamers in a rhino... rather cheap...

Really? Rhinos aren't really worth it IMO. They die too easily and give up first blood. The only way they work is if you're screening it, but you'll still probably get that Rhino popped anyway. . . .

If you're taking an assault squad you should leave the Jet Packs on. While that free Rhino might be tempting, it will most likely give your opponent first blood, oh and take the possibility of Hammer of Wrath attacks away from you. I like the idea of rolling up and BBQing face, I just don't think its that practical. You're giving up a lot of mobility for a gimmick

And I am with you on the rhino, again for whatever its worth it :D

[Interrogator Stobz]

With the changes in dangerous terrain tests and the intro of Hammer attacks, I'm with keeping the jump packs too. Still keep the twin flamers but travel light and fast and use cover for even betterer survivability.

I give my Assault Sgt the Vet upgrade, a power sword (or fist if points are left over) and a plasma pistol (he is one of the only Sgts that can regularly get into a decent range to use it). It makes him a bit expensive I know, but he can hide easily enough inside his squad if fired at on the move.

 

Also; I totally agree with Byrans PoV on the weapon choice thing, just my opinion though (it's not provable either way due to GeeDub speak).

 

:D

stobz

[Master Avoghai]

Considering a full flamer squad, you may also consider giving them a drop pod.

The drop pod rules are kinda nasty and it's very easy to deliver a 4/5 template fury if you add a techmarine with them.

 

And I have the same read as Bryan Blaire btw. The word one is used to prevent taking 2 weapons for only one of the original ones...

(Btw is there a list of such questions somewhere? Maybe the forum should address it for the next FAQ update )

[march10k]

 

And I have the same read as Bryan Blaire btw. The word one is used to prevent taking 2 weapons for only one of the original ones...

 

 

Aye, that'd be the second appearance of the word "one."  If they intended that you be able to make as many such one-for-one substitutions as you have weapons to start with, it would read "can replace each weapon with one of the following," which is also the more natural phrasing.  Even "a" in place of "each" would be arguably ambiguous, but "may replace one weapon" can only have two meanings:

 

1.  You're only allowed to make one swop.

 

2.  You're not allowed to drop more than one weapon for each choice taken from the list.

 

Of these two, the second is laughable, since there's no potenial cheese for the rule to prohibit, and therefore no reason to make a rule in the first place.  But we all agree that only being able to make one swop does/would constrain the list-writer. 

 

/edit/

 

I think we need to introduce a new acronym to our lexicon, Read As Desired (RAD), which means "creatively stretch ambiguous wording, if necessary wishing the ambiguity into existence in the first place, in order to do whatever the hell you want."  Funny thing is, that's already explicitly allowed for in the rule book, it's a combination of "the most important rule" and the idea that you can't have a game without a willing opponent, so everything, from FOC violations to playing with unpainted models to bringing a drink to the game is, "with your opponent's permission" anyway.

[BigGumbo]

The Melee Weapon list is only mutually exclusive for one weapon amongst itself. It doesn't specify exchange rules amongst the actual unit entry itself. If it was that way, it would specify, as the Chapter Relics list does, that such a selection may be taken only once, once for a unit, etc.

 

Except that none of the non-Relic items are unique, so I'm not sure that this is a valid comparison.

 

 

 The fact is, neither side can actually prove they are right, because the rules are unclear. Fact is, the main rule book actually gives a way to decide things like this in a game, you roll off, assuming you can't agree.

 

Entirely true: I was offering my opinion on the given question, along with some reasoning to support it. I'm not claiming to have proven anything.

 

 

 BigGumbo: when I make a Sergeant, I choose to replace the bolt pistol with a lightning claw using the rule "One weapon may be replaced with one of the following:". I have taken one item from the Melee Weapons wargear list AND I choose to replace the bolt gun with a lightning claw, and have followed the rules of the Melee Weapon wargear list to the letter. At no time did I replace two weapons with one, or replace one weapon with two. I have also followed the rules to the letter of the entry that says "May take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons list" because I have chosen to only take weapons from the Melee Weapons list. I will agree that you can exchange one weapon fr one at a time, but nothing in that list says "You can only exchange one" in that listing and the entry in the character options actually say "and/or", which has already been defined in the book as either or both, etc.

 

Well, here we have to agree to disagree: I think that the "may exchange one weapon for one of the following" wording is the statement that limits you to one swap; you think that it doesn't limit you. I have no problem with you thinking that but I still think that you're wrong. My view is that if the melee list was meant to allow more than one swap, it would have been written as "may exchange any weapon for one of the following", not "may exchange one weapon..." - but then that could just be the difference between how I would have written the Codex and how Vetock actually did write it, rather than a difference of opinion on the substance.

 

As you say, though, it doesn't matter as long as your opponent is happy with what you're doing.

 

 

 If you choose to limit yourselves and your opponents, that's fine. I don't, and neither does my game group.

[Master Avoghai]

Many models, such as squad sergeants, are given the option of taking weapons from the Melee Weapons list and/or Ranged weapons list.

By the way you english k-n-n-n-niggits, :-p how is it exactly worded in your codex?

 

Because in my French version it clearly states that the vet sgt may take melee weaponS and/or range weaponS.

 

So it let me think that he may take several weapons of each type providing he has enough to exchange...

[Quixus]

how is it exactly worded in your codex?

See post 29

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Wow, it's been a while since a thread didn't degenerate into a RAW, RAI or RAD discussion. As always, to each it's own, agree to disagree and move on... let your gaming groups decide... on with the show.

[Brother Immolator]

Wow, it's been a while since a thread didn't degenerate into a RAW, RAI or RAD discussion. As always, to each it's own, agree to disagree and move on... let your gaming groups decide... on with the show.

RAD?

[BigGumbo]

Yep. After RAD comes ... STASIS ;-)

[Brother Immolator]

Yep. After RAD comes ... STASIS ;-)

And then a PLASMA CANNON BOLT?