Noise Marines/Word Bearers

[ShadowSong7007]

Long story short, I have 2 squads of Noise marines. I have been wanting to make a Kill-team and decided on Chaos as a change of pace from my other 2 armies. I'm just curious can Word Bearers be Noise Marines? Rules and/or more importantly fluff?

 

I know Word Bearers have always been Chaos Undivided and never (try) to lean one way or the other.

[Dam13n]

Anything can be justified, it just requires a little imagination.

 

I'd model a unit with the forge world volkite weapons and just say they're using experimental weaponry. Add some mutations/bionics to represent the +1 initiative and there you have it.

 

Alternatively you could say that they're noise marines that have joined a WB warband and repainted their armour accordingly.

 

The fluff is what you make of it.

[Amalricus]

You could also state those squads use religious chants and hymns at a crazy high pitch / volume to drive their foes mad / pop their brains out / invoque daemonic forces, basically the classic "Noise Marine method", in a zealot manner. Anything goes, really, WB are a treat when trying to bend the fluff.

 

As far as rules go, there are no legion rules, so no opposition there either.

[Ammonius]

I think Dam13n is right on the money, if only because I have already ordered the parts to build volkite-toting Deprecator Noise Marines

Also, look up the Sanctified as described in the Seige of Vraks part III. They are described as being a Khorne-leaning warband with ties to the Word Bearers. Perhaps your Kill team is from a Slaaneshi splinter faction?

[Kol Saresk]

Another suggestion is that maybe they are just a "Choir of the Damned" who use weapons blessed by the warp to spread its music to the Imperial Heathens. After all, the Word Bearers do have the Discords so it could just be a weaponization of those little monsters.

 

EDIT: There was a thread about something like this forever ago and someone(A D-B I think) presented descriptions of what a possible Word Beares Noise Marine Squad could be fluffwise.

[Sception]

Or they can just be noise marines that joined a warband let by a word bearers lord. The Emperor's Children were shattered by protracted conflicts with the Black Legion and especially the World Eaters. While more organized Emperor's Children forces have since reemerged, isolated groups still sell their services as mercenaries to warlords across the Eye. Same with berzerkers from the World Eaters and banished sorcerers and their rubric retinues from the Thousand Sons. The Death guard have mainteined somewhat more cohesiveness, but even there Typhus's forces aren't the only plague marines to have grown tired of their primarchs relative complacency and gone off to take a more active part elsewhere. And all of this is to say nothing of post-heresy cult marines. The psycho-surgery methods to create noise marines and berzerkers are known outside of their native legions (the Black Legion in particular has access to those techniques), and the daemonic contageon that created plague marines is just that - contagious And while no new Rubric marines are being created any time soon, the souls of destroyed rubrics linger in the warp and can be summoned back and bound into new armored shells by tzeentchian sorcerers that know their true names and the proper rituals - information not exclusively under Magnus's control.

So, yeah, any of the cult marines can reasonably appear as mercenary forces working under any Chaos Warlord operating out of the eye, without needing any additional justification than that. And you know? Honestly? I prefer going with that to refluffing. I've seen 'thousand sons' armies with thousand son rubric 'counts as' plague marines and thousand son sorcerer coven 'counts as' noise marines, and so on, and I don't know, it just irks me a bit. The marks represent dedication to a particular power, I don't like armies that take one mark and then 'count as' another. Likewise the special equipment of the cult units represents particular things in the universe, and it annoys me sometimes when people run 'undivided cyber-warriors with fancy cannons' as 'slaaneshi noise marines with sonic weapons'. Like, if you wanted your themed force, don't take units that don't fit your theme? Is that so hard?

It's petty, though, and I never have and would never complain about it in person, and cool conversions can often make up for it. But it's not something i'd do myself. Especially for something like 'noise marines in a word bearers warband' or 'plague marines in a iron warriors warband' or something else that doesn't need any further excuse to begin with.

[Dam13n]

Whilst I agree that counts-as can go too far, the problem is that the codex/codices GW produces rarely cover all aspects of each army in explicit detail. Using certain other units (either from within your own codex or as allies from another) helps expand the choices you have available in order to create the army you want to play.

 

A Word Bearers "Choir" fit their theme nicely, but there is no specific unit entry for a unit with that name, yet Noise Marines fit nicely, so why not use them to represent said "Choir".

 

I agree that the cult armies possibly should be kept dedicated to one god (in terms of marked units/cults) but I can see (in my head at least) a "deadly sins slaanesh host" where Plague Marines represent Gluttony or Sloth, while Berserkers represent wrath etc. Yet all would be encompassed by the theme of excessive sensation.

 

I've stepped down that path myself with my Wolves (I'm doing multiple allied units to represent other units not contained within the codex, but fit the overall theme of my army) this will allow me to change my army to fit an alternate sub-theme whenever I feel like it, the models are all wysiwyg, yet all units are modelled/painted as space wolves. It only takes a couple of minutes to explain what each unit is at the start of the game, and my roster is made available to the other player to check if needs be to avoid confusion.

 

The hobby is what you make it after all.

[Dar'kir]

I agree with what most folks have posted. either way you choose to run them it would all fit together. I run Noise Marines in my Iron Warriors army, and say the are a warband that joined with them. I think a big part of how they fir within your force is how you paint them. You could keep them WB colors and just say they are a cult, or paint them differently and say they are an allied warband. Again either way its all good.

[Dammeron]

As others have said, given the nature of the "cult" units and their respective legions, there's absolutely no reason background wise why the Word Bearers wouldn't incorporate them as mercenaries etc. In fact, if you look at the Word Bearers specific background provided in their I.A. article, it specifically points out that each "Host" of Word Bearers is organised differently, depending on the visions and auguries of the apostle leading them. In that regard, it certainly isn't much of a stretch to extrapolate a situation whereby a particular Dark Apostle believes in "balancing the humours" of the Warp by including at least one unit/individual dedicated to each of the Dark Powers, or deploying on or the other as and when their visions suggest it proscribed by the Gods. 

 

Personally, I would take the somewhat more creative route of "re-imagining" the appropriate cult units as Word Bearer specific, if only because it provides endless scope for conversion and personalisation. Khorne Berserkers, for example, could be Dark Templars or Crusaders; elite Word Bearers who have dedicated themselves to spreading the creed of the Dark Powers by the sword, putting to death any and all who oppose the One Truth. Noise Marines, as we explored in another thread, could be a "Dark Choir;" Word Bearers fitted with all manner of broadcasters and daemonic instruments through which prayers and hymns spout in the daemonic tongue, unseating reality itself. Thousand Sons are somewhat more problematic, but far from impossible: they could be Word Bearers who are locked in some kind of trance-like meditation or communion with the Warp, hence their awkwardness and slowness, but who are constantly surrounded by daemonic Warp fire that licks out at their enemies (representing the Thousand Sons armour piercing ammunition and/or the Soul Fire icon). Similarly, Plague Marines could be flagellants; Word Bearers that have taken to excoriating their own flesh in the name of the Dark Powers, and as such, have become somewhat inured to pain. 

[Kol Saresk]

I nevef thought Plague Marines could sound Slaaneshi before... :P

[Dam13n]

Anything can be made into whatever you like with some imagination:

 

Khorne:

- Thousand Sons - Collars of Khorne (4++) and Skullhammer Bolts (ap3), Implacable (S+P)

- Plague Marines - Armour of Brazen Brass (T5, I3 + FNP), Blood Flails (Plague Knives), Dreadskull grenades (Blight Grenades)

- Noise Marines - Storm of Blades (I5), Burning Blood Projector (Doom Siren), Bonestorm Bolts (Sonic Blaster), Flesh-shredder Cannon (Blastmaster)

 

Nurgle:

- Thousand Sons - Plagueshroud (4++), Plague Bolts (ap3), Palsied (S+P)

- Noise Marines - Death Frenzy (I5), Stream of Corruption (DS), Plague Mortar (BM), Rotstorm Bolts (SB)

- Berserkers - Reapers (WS5), The Red Pox (Rage and Furious Charge), Immovable Objects (Counter Attack)

 

Tzeentch:

- Noise Marines - Second Sight (I5), Pink Fire Launcher (DS), Blue Fire Cannon (BM), Warpfire Bolts (SB)

- Plague Marines - Everchanging Flesh (T5 and FNP), Warp Flare (Blight Grenades), Blades of Mutation (Plague Knives)

- Berserkers - Curse of the Labyrinth (Rage and Furious Charge), Fate Forseen (Counter Attack), Your Weaknesses are Known (WS5)

 

Slaanesh:

- Thousand Sons - Uncanny Reflexes (4++), Slivershard Bolts (ap3), Over-indulgent (S+P)

- Plague Marines - Gluttons (T5), Pleasure from Pain (FNP), Soporific Musk (Blight Grenades), Blades of Torment (Plague Knives)

- Bersekers - Perfect Warriors (WS5), Swift Strikers (Rage, FC and CA)

 

Of course, there will be those that roll their eyes at this, but it does show what can be justified (rather easily) with some imagination. It also opens up some interesting conversion ideas. Plus the army/armies will end up with a nice overall theme, rather than looking like a spiky aspect warrior army (the army of many colours).

 

Laterz...

[Sception]

I would rather see space wolves proxied as world eaters than noise marines.  I would rather see grey knights proxied as thousand sons than plague marines.  Maybe that's just me.

[Dam13n]

The ideas I posted above relate to the gamer who wants a balanced army that contains a variety of units, yet wants them all to fit the theme of their favourite renegade chapter or traitor legion.

 

After all a list based entirely around one mark is often a one-trick-pony.

 

- Khorne - all out assault - nerfed by 6th edition thanks to assault nerfs and shooting buffs (including overwatch).

- Slaanesh - noise marines may be better than before in many ways but they are still too much the all-rounder to be the masters of anything. (I5 on a primarily shooty unit makes little sense, and if you make an assault unit out of them (BP+CCW and a Doom Siren) then they suffer many of the problems ascribed to Khorne, above).

- Nurgle - PMs are great, as are Nurgle Bikes and Obliterators. Arguably the best mono-god list, but ends up being small due to high points costs.

- Tzeentch - Sons are a mid-close range shooting unit (yet can't overwatch) and the powers are somewhat lacklustre, standard MoT (6++) is crap, and of the other units that benefit more from the mark (Daemons/Terminators) most of those units aren't great (Termies being the exception).

 

However take from each and you can start to reduce the downsides through synergy.

 

One of the popular builds I keep seeing is the Slaanesh/Nurgle combo as Noise Marines and Plague Marines synergise well together. However a mix of dirty greens and browns next to vibrant pinks and purples isn't going to make for a cohesively themed (and hence good looking) army.

 

So using the Glutton idea for the Plague Marines in order to keep to a Pink/Purple army isn't a terrible idea, neither is the idea of having some whip-cord thin ghoulish marines (using ghoul/zombie bits maybe) to represent Marines infected with a different disease, that speeds their metabolism giving them increased speed at the cost of rapid tissue breakdown and using them as Dirty Green Noise Marines.

 

Malisteen - I agree that using certain other codices to (maybe) better represent the skills of a particular legion is a viable choice, providing you target the correct codex to the army (GKs = TS, BA/SW = WE, BT = WB etc.). But what I'm talking about is different. It's about using the chaos codex to the full. Being able to take any unit you like and incorporate it into a themed list.

 

Turning the Mark of Slaanesh into the Mark of the Wasting Plague or the Mark of Khorne into the Mark of the Red Pox for example.

 

With regards to the topic in hand, you could use the Mark of the Serrated Sun (Khorne), Mark of the Burning Book (Tzeentch) etc. when marking the various Word Bearer units. With the Cults being represented similarly - Fanatics of the Serrated Sun (Berserkers) for example. Personally if someone came to me with such a list I'd respect their initiative, and so long as the units were appropriately modelled so as to be identifiable from one another, I'd have no problem playing against it either.

 

It is Chaos after all, why should we limit ourselves like the weakling followers of the Corpse-God. In the warp, unreality is what we make it. :P

[Sception]

If you want to use the various chaos units together in a mixed army then do so.  If you're playing an army with a narrow theme, stick to your theme.  If you don't want to play an army with a narrow theme, then play something more generalist.

 

The majority of chaos marine subfactions make sense with any units in the book.  Play one of those.  Don't tell me "World Eaters means only khorne berzerkers" and then deploy an army with a bunch of berzerkers that 'count as' plague marines and noise marines because they're 'extra stinky' or 'extra shouty'.  Either stick to your guns or play a mixed warband, imo.

[Kol Saresk]

Except that not all World Eaters are called World Eaters(Champion of Khorne with the Devourers). Not all World Eaters are een World Eaters(Zhufor the Impaler). Not all Berzerkers are World Eaters(Hellhounds' Chrono-Gladiators from Perfection and the Flesh Tearer in Champions of Khorne). Not all World Eaters are even "Berzerkers". Just look at the Terminators in Champions of Khorne and Conquest of Armageddon and the Heavy Weapons teams in Conquest of Armageddon. So yeah....... I got some pretty big guns with some rather broad barrels and what they shoot is determined by the fluff.

[Dam13n]

Malisteen - I didn't say that. What I said was that an army restricted to taking one mark or cult is tactically limited by that choice.

 

World Eaters concern themselves with taking skulls for Khorne, how they choose to do that is up to them. The preferred method in the fluff is a chainaxe to the neck, yet if someone envisages an army that prefers a different method (shooting for example) then I see nothing wrong with that.

 

That's why I said "Khorne" not "World Eaters" when mentioning the example limitations.

 

Thanks Kol for the references.

[Sception]

I'm not the one saying certain factions can only be this or that alignment!  It's that kind of thinking that leads to confusing, unnecessary, arbitrary counts-as units to begin with.

 

Want to run some heavy stuff in your world eaters army?  DO SO!  a World Eaters warlord isn't going to turn down the services of plague marine mercenaries, and while they might complain, they'll let a banished thousand son sorcerer join if their precognition can tell them where to find the next battlefield.  They're certainly more then happy to funnel undivided cultists and renegade marines into the killing fields.  And if you really think everything needs to be khorne aligned in your world eaters army, well, that's voluntarily adopting a restrictive theme, and yeah, that's going to restrict you, and even then oblits and havocs and plasma chosen can all take the MoK, to say nothing of daemon engines and khorne aligned allied daemon units.

 

So yeah, you want to run aligned or cult units in a word bearers army?  Cool, awesome, go do that, nothing stopping you, fits the fluff just fine without any crazy counts as.  Word bearers don't all have to be unaligned and their armies don't have to be exclusively comprised of original word bearers, either.  So if you want to run a cult unit, run it.  You don't have to make up some wacky unaligned specialist unit to use the rules of an aligned cult unit, and doing so just gets under my skin.  Unless you have a really great conversion, then it's just confusion for confusion's sake.  It's one thing to have an idea for a weird unit or conversion and then ask yourself how best you could represent it, it's another thing to think of the unit you want first, decide it doesn't fit your theme, but then try and come up with a counts as option as an excuse to field it anyway.  Especially when you're the only one saying the unit you want doesn't fit in the first place.

 

I think noise marines fit in a Word Bearers army without any shenanigans.  That you all are trying to find round about counts as excuses to field them is telling me that you don't think they belong.  And if you don't think a unit belongs in your army, then don't field it.  Easy as.

[Kol Saresk]

Double Post

[Kol Saresk]

I'm just curious can Word Bearers be Noise Marines? Rules and/or more importantly fluff?

 

I know Word Bearers have always been Chaos Undivided and never (try) to lean one way or the other.

Count as is sort of implied Malisteen when the OP asked of Word Bearers could be Noise Marines, not if Noise Marines could be in a Word Bearers Force.

[King Willy]

@malisteen

What kills trying to say is that sometimes taking certain units as described by the codex just doesn't fit an armies theme but they like an idea they may have come up with that sounds plausible and had an aesthetic that fits better then what is described

 

This isn t so much a case of this is a Khorne army so all have mark of khorne but a case of an army dedicated to khorne and each squad specialising in a different way of killing

 

A theme can extend beyond a list and so counts as will always pop up in some form

 

As for op s question I don t see why a word bearer can be a noise marine they seem to mutilate there own bodies

[Sception]

I understand that, but proxying one mark as another, to me, is taking it too far.  what the marks do, what the cult units do, those are the mechanical effects that define the fluff of the alignments.  The combination of high toughness, poison, and FNP defines plague marines, which in turn define nurgle.  Running 'counts as' plague marines in 'slaanesh' or 'tzeentch' or 'khorne' or 'pure undivided' lists negates that distinction, and negates the alignments altogether.  Might as well not even have chaos gods at that rate.  Might as well not even have chaos marines at that rate.

 

And we're not talking about having a great idea for a unique conversion or unit, and then trying to figure out how best to represent it.  We're talking about selecting a restrictive theme, deciding a power unit doesn't fit that theme, and then trying to work out a counts as excuse after the fact to field the power unit anyway.  If you're just going to run whatever units you want for power or gameplay effect without regard for your theme, then don't pretend you're playing a themed army to begin with.

 

It's hilarious, because noise marines already make sense in a word bearers army.  We're not even talking about fielding plague marines in a thousand sons list or anything like that.  So the answer to OP's question is, yes, noise marines make sense in a word bearers army.  I can imagine WB lords going out of their way to acquire the services of cult units to glorify the various deities, and I can certainly imagine isolated and disaffected noise marines after the shattering of their legion being attracted by the religious message of a word bearers apostle.

 

But if someone doesn't think word bearers should use noise marines, then they shouldn't field noise marines in their word bearers army.  That's how themed lists work, you don't play the units that don't fit the theme.

[Dam13n]

Malisteen - we've all been saying that warbands CAN be made of units of varied origins with mixed colour schemes to match, if that's what you want.

 

What I'm talking about is the scenario where a person wants an army which maintains a cohesive appearance (same colour scheme etc.) yet haves a variety of units or has a cool idea for some conversions and wants to fit them into the army.

 

Now you could just paint plague marines red so they match with a word bearers army. Which would be ok, or you could come up with a custom unit that fits both the rules and the vision you have for your army.

 

The idea being to encourage cool conversions.

 

That's it really.

 

Anything CAN belong in any army. How you fit it in is up to you. I don't get why you're so opposed to using creative thinking to fit a unit in rather than just say that they're a pseudo-allied unit.

 

But then again we obviously have different ways of seeing this part of the hobby, the chances are we're not going to agree or convince each other, so arguing isn't going to get us anywhere.

[King Willy]

If you must stay true to the marks why do slannesh marines now have access to feel no pain because the marks a simplified ways to show the broad idea of a god on the table top

 

MoK give extra attacks cause khorne is visibly associated with close combat but that doesn't exclude every possible interpretation for a unit having certain rules if only to change up the look of an army

 

What I m reading from you is that each mark and the associated god show there devotion in only one way and it is an insult to the fluff to change the names for fluff reasons hell you said proxying a mark which isn t the case

 

What people who do these count as units do is expand a single mark from a simple rules based system to a more diverse fluff system that better portrays the myriad ways in which chaos can affect those that worship it

[totgeboren]

I personally don't think Cult units are fitting to the WB theme, as I still see them as being 'Undivided', even if that entails a mix of marks. I dunno, being in a Cult to me means the marine has embraced the creed of one God to the exclusion of all else, and that is something I don't think the WB should do.

Of course, there are always exceptions, and I have little trouble imagining a WB Lord employing Noise Marine Mercenaries for example. But if he does that, the Noise Marines are not 'Word Bearers', but mercenaries.

If someone wants WB Cult units, I think count-as is really nice. A Dark Choir or using volkite weapons both sound great to me.

 

@Malisteen. I understand your dislike of using count-as for the cults, as it undermines the theme of the Gods. But in the same way including Noise Marines in a WB host also undermines the theme of the Legion. One could of course simply not use the unit you want because having a theme must imply restriction, but restrictions for their own sake are not all that fun.

Finding a count-as that makes chaos armies even more chaotic and diverse, whilst still retaining say a specific Legion theme is to me a great thing! I think the list Dam13n made for how to include all the cults in any given God-themed list was great, as the rules we are given simply are not made to cater to those who want to theme their army without gimping themselves (except maybe Nurgle).

[Sception]

If you're playing a themed army, you should be able to get a feel for that theme from the models, from the paint job, and even from the army list itself, without seeing the rest. If your list looks like the same generic mixed list as everyone elses, then you're not running a theme list, are you?

 

And if your noise marines don't look like noise marines, then you're running counts as, which is confusing and violates wysiwyg, and I've played against one too many :cussty conversions that transformed from one unit to another half way through a game (the last one being zombie knights that magically transformed from black knights to blood knights half way through a battle, but a 'thousand sons army' that turned out to be a plague marine army was even more annoying, and even more relevant to this thread), for me to think that practice is okay. It leads to confusion. That confusion can be worthwhile if you have an awesome idea for a conversion first, and then try to figure out how to represent it on the table, but that's not what we're talking about here. We're not talking about using conversions and counts as to enhance your theme, we're talking about deliberately using them to subvert it.

 

How are your shouty guys visually distinguished from your regular bp/ccwep guys? What are they even going to look like - regular guys with no helmets and open mouthed heads? chaos marines with raptor helmets? How am I supposed to tell them apart from regular bp/ccw marines, then? I mean, maybe guys with organ pipes on their backs could work, at least then you have some physical representation to mark the squad out. How is the shouty blast master distinguished from the shouty sonic blasters? from the shouty doom siren? Are they slaaneshi in your head, or are we pretending that a marked unit, a cult unit even, is undivided? If it were just about having a unit that represents devastating chants with heavy gunfire, why aren't they chosen, or a havoc squad? Both can field a bunch of big guns to represent your shouts while still being an undivided unit if what you wanted was a purely undivided army.

 

But this thread isn't about 'how do I fit this awesome conversion idea into my army', this thread is about 'how do I trick myself into being ok with fielding a unit I don't think belongs in my list'. It's putting the cart before the horse.