Noise Marines/Word Bearers

[Sception]

1. I don't think this is a valid view under current fluff, and I think the fluff that implied as much before was sketchy at best.  I mean, two of the cult Legions, including the one associated with the cult specifically under discussion here, were explicitly shattered into small mercenary groups who sell their services around the Eye.  Who do these mercenaries work for, if not the undivided factions?  Because they sure don't work for the other cult factions.  Iron warriors used to explicitly have berserkers in their forces, and one of their most noted personalities was, what, a former Thousand Son?  Am I remembering that right?  I'm not all about the 'happy chaos family', but neither am I a fan of the highly compartmentalized, completely segregated, and rigidly ordered interpretation of chaos that reigned during the 3.5 era.

 

I like the Word Bearers as evangelists, constantly reaching out to other factions to spread their message, rather than as an insular cult that secrets itself away from the rest of the universe.  I like the idea of apostles going out on their own or with small retinues to offer their services, religious and otherwise, to the other legions and warbands.  I like the idea of Word Bearers warlords going on missions within the eye and without, collecting scattered, disaffected mercenary groups, and bringing them together into a religious crusade.  And I like the idea of word bearers commanders seeking the services of small groups of each of the cults, viewing their presence as a sign that each of the gods have blessed their cause in turn, though I miss the days when they were all troops by default, so you could take one of each cult without resorting to a cult lord.

 

I do agree with the note of 'if you want to use cults in a primarily undivided force, use an undivided leader, and field the cults as elites' sentiment.  Though it would be easier to argue if, as mentioned, you could still field one of each that way.  Or if the cult units were actually worthwhile as elites, which they mostly aren't.  Plague and Noise marines may be fieldable as troops, but they're hardly inspiring or exciting to play even then, and 'zerkers and sons are basically trash.  It's pretty clear that none of them got much attention at all in the transition from the previous, even less satisfactory codex.  I haven't run cult units in my personal army, but even so I recognize them as one of the defining aspects of our faction, like aspect warriors for eldar, and am sorely disappointed by their lackluster treatment.  Hopefully they'll see some shiny new rules when and if those new plastic cult units that were rumored are ever released.

[Dam13n]

Zhorzh - are you trying to be offensive? Saying people who you don't agree with are stupid and their arguments are weak pretty much falls into just that - being offensive.

 

You don't have to agree with counts-as or imaginative interpretations based off the codex, but that doesn't give you the right to insult those that do.

 

We all have different opinions, and that's all they are. An opinion cannot really be wrong.

 

Can you justify having NM in a WB army as pseudo-allies - yes

Can you also justify a Dark Choir in a WB army, convert something cool and use the NM rules to represent them - yes

Can you invent your own fluff - yes

 

At no point do you have the right to tell another hobbyist that they can't do something.

[Zhorzh]

@Dam13n: Read my post again. I'm not calling anyone stupid, I'm calling the idea itself stupid. Because of 2 reasons I've mentioned. Even smart people can have dumb ideas once in a while, that doesn't mean they're idiots. Don't be so sensitive.

 

And I don't care what you do with your models. They're your models. You can play Necrons counting as Tyranids, you can have a pink Black Legion army, I don't care what anyone does to their armies. What I've tried to point out is that people should make an effort if they're doing count-as: by trying hard to convert good looking models and respect the fluff by twisting it in a plausible way, which they almost always don't. They either don't try hard enough (or they don't try at all) and/or they have a very weak knowledge of the fluff. They always end up luying to themselves and make up weird excuses to justify their dellusions and I've seen too many of them during the Gav Codex era.

Yesterday I've heard a guy calling his Abbadon, Chosen and other Dark Vengeance models the Alpha Legion. This has to stop.

 

But do whatever you want man. Your models, your problem - not mine.

 

 

Can you justify having NM in a WB army as pseudo-allies - yes

Can you also justify a Dark Choir in a WB army, convert something cool and use the NM rules to represent them - yes

Can you invent your own fluff - yes

 

Can you jump off a bridge- yes

 

Just because you can do something, it doesn't mean it's a good idea.

[ShadowSong7007]

Lets keep it cordial shall we.

 

The whole reason I wanted to use Word Bearers is because I just got done reading the books by ADB. At no point in time have I tried to cram Noise Marines in an army just because. I personally think that the Word Bearers would welcome all cults, they worship Chaos and all aspects of it, why not embrace their brethren who go more to the extreme? 

 

Still, once again I'm not looking for an advantage in a game. I just happened to have the models sitting around and I prefer to not buy more if I can help it.

[Dam13n]

I'm betting it would stop if all the cults/marks were equally competitive, but they're not.

 

As such people will try to justify taking competitive units in their army whilst still playing the legion they like the most from a visual/fluff perspective.

 

I'm in agreement with you that these units should be well converted and justified with good fluff. I don't think anybody here is contradicting that.

 

(Which is what I've been saying pretty much all along)

 

One issue with that is the fact that many hobbyists aren't skilled at converting, should they be unable to field the army they want because of that? A certain degree of leeway is often required, particularly when dealing with people who are new to the hobby and therefore haven't had a chance to work on their converting skills.

 

There are stupid ideas, sure. But a hobby idea doesn't correlate with jumping off a bridge. Me taking a custom unit isn't likely to kill me, jumping off a bridge might.

 

If someone comes up with an idea you don't agree with, calling it stupid doesn't help, it's not constructive. Why not offer some suggestions instead of being negative.

[Excessus]

So fun to see people's opinions in this matter, and that they are so adamant in their beliefs.

I'm dying to see Zhorzh try to explain why the Alpha Legion wouldn't use a tool from it's toolbox, when that is pretty much their MO, to use all the available tools they have to achieve a goal. Why would Alpha Legion ever ignore the possibility of hiring (or luring) willing mercenaries to do something as skill-less as an open conflict or battle?

[Zhorzh]

If someone comes up with an idea you don't agree with, calling it stupid doesn't help, it's not constructive. Why not offer some suggestions instead of being negative.

I already did, didn't I? And I actually analized why I thought it was a stupid idea:

Here's my take on this.

Using cult units in fluffy Legion armies is very... stupid because of 2 problems:

1. The chance that an Undivided Legion - Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords and Iron Warriors - will ally with any cult units in any

situation besides during a Black Crusade is pretty much the same as a chance that you'll get hit by a meteor, right now, while you're reading

this post. Alpha Legion and Night Lords don't like Chaos very much, Word Bearers see worshipping individual Chaos gods as heresy and Iron

Warriors care only for guns and hate mutation. Although Iron Warriors sometimes like using Berzerkers, and Night Lords sometimes use Chaos

Furies, but that's an old piece of fluff and I believe that these are the only exceptions from the rule.

2. Justifying the use of cult units in fluffy undivided armies tends to be very weak (they have a super special modified armor! they have awesome rare weapons! >.>) and it comes from people who have a weak knowledge of fluff and/or can't handle the restrictions which come by choosing to represent an undivided army.

These problems can be solved in 2 ways:

1. If you really want Cult units, then take them as Elites. This way they won't be a dominant element in the army and could represent an ally of convinience of some sort. That also means that you can't have marked HQs and you shouldn't do that, ever. I once heard someone trying to

justify having a Slaanesh Sorc with Lash in an Alpha Legion army, urgh.

2. More importantly, convert your models, and you better make them pretty. If you made an effort in your fluff or whatever you made up, then make an effort in converting your minis. The way I see it, having good looking custom models helps suspending the disbelief and people will more easily accept your army and your ideas. I've seen a Pre-Heresy Thousand Sons army using the Grey Knight codex - sounds cringeworthy, but the guy made a great effort in converting his minisand the army looks awesome.

They're kinda vague but they're still suggestions...

I'm dying to see Zhorzh try to explain why the Alpha Legion wouldn't use a tool from it's toolbox, when that is pretty much their MO, to use all the available tools they have to achieve a goal. Why would Alpha Legion ever ignore the possibility of hiring (or luring) willing mercenaries to do something as skill-less as an open conflict or battle?

- AL's toolbox is comprised of human operatives, cultists, AL marines and their skill. Not Cult units.

- Never heard of AL doing open battles. Even if they did, their main way of warfare is the opposite, it's a war from shadows, it's using every unorthodox and dirty trick in the book and making complex and most optimum plans.

- AL cultists and operatives suit their plans better than Cults (infiltration, espionage, sabotage, etc). If I wanted to destroy or at least cripple someone from the inside, I'd use operatives, not Cult units. Also, humans are cheaper, easier to regruit and more plentiful than CSMs. I mean, they could hire a cult unit in theory, but they wouldn't do anything different or better that operatives, cultists and AL Marines already do. It's possible that they could manipulate them but that's not the same as having them in the same force.

- AL doesn't like Daemons. They let Cultists dabble with Daemons, but otherwise they don't use them. It's even arguable on which side they actually are (see: "Legion" and the current state of 40K). I haven't read post-heresy novels with AL, but I don't think that any other CSM warband or Legion would like to work with such a shady group. Nobody even liked them before the Heresy.

There is ONE scenario where I see AL with other cult units: in a Black Crusade. Otherwise, no.

[Excessus]

- AL's toolbox is comprised of human operatives, cultists, AL marines and their skill. Not Cult units.

- Never heard of AL doing open battles. Even if they did, their main way of warfare is the opposite, it's a war from shadows, it's using every unorthodox and dirty trick in the book and making complex and most optimum plans.

- AL cultists and operatives suit their plans better than Cults (infiltration, espionage, sabotage, etc). If I wanted to destroy or at least cripple someone from the inside, I'd use operatives, not Cult units. Also, humans are cheaper, easier to regruit and more plentiful than CSMs. I mean, they could hire a cult unit in theory, but they wouldn't do anything different or better that operatives, cultists and AL Marines already do. It's possible that they could manipulate them but that's not the same as having them in the same force.

- AL doesn't like Daemons. They let Cultists dabble with Daemons, but otherwise they don't use them. It's even arguable on which side they actually are (see: "Legion" and the current state of 40K). I haven't read post-heresy novels with AL, but I don't think that any other CSM warband or Legion would like to work with such a shady group. Nobody even liked them before the Heresy.

Not quite...but I guess it was a good try...well done...

 

AL's toolbox consists of anything they can use, and that very much includes cult units. Operatives are just another tool in the box, one that the Alpha Legion favors a lot because it's very effective. But if you got a battle to win, why not hire that Thousand Sons sorcerer and his rubric with any sorcerous artifacts they might find or psychic adepts...or a cadre of Khorne Berzerkers roaming about might be 'happy' to know that there will be a lot of skulls to be had in an upcoming assault. Why waste precious Alpha Legionnaires when there are so many easily tricked (they got fooled into servitude by their gods, after all) marines out there to do the work for you, for a small price...

 

Never heard of AL doing open battles? Ever heard of Istvaan V? Or Vraks? Or Ghorstangrad? Sometimes there is a need for the superior brutality of astartes in a battle, and AL aren't stupid. Battles favoring astartes will be fought by astartes. The war from the shadows and all the dirty tricks is but a prelude to the war in the open...a way to make the odds favor the AL despite perhaps beginning in their opponent's favor...

 

AL cultists and operatives suit their plans better, but why limit yourself...that's what other legions would do. Use your tools! A carpenter wouldn't use a screwdriver to hack off a plank of wood, would he? They perhaps wouldn't do anything different, but again, why waste Alpha Legionnaires when there are cheap cannon fodder that you can hire with a promise of glory and slaughter...they'll be in the front line taking major casualities anyway, and the AL could easily dispose of any remnants afterwards if they wanted to...

 

AL gets cultists to dabble with daemons, daemons are a tool as well, a highly corrupting tool, thus the Alpha Legion handle them by proxy...cultists are expendable and comes in the million. Other warbands might not want to work with them, but what makes you think they have a choice? What makes you think the Alpha Legion havent set things up far in advance to make the other warband's leader think he has to commit to the attack...

 

 

You take other's word for things too readily I think. "The means to an end" does not stand for "always" in the subject of sneaky behaviour...

[Antarius]

And yet, when you look through the product range and current GW display army, there are plenty of d00dz in Alpha Legion colours pledging clear allegiance to Chaos and utilizing daemonic forces.

 

What I'm trying to get at here is that there's no hard and fast canon for "these guys do this, only this and never this".

 

There are good ideas and bad ideas, sure. But a lot of the ideas that people seem very set on in this thread have actual counter-examples in GW's fluff and the models they display.

 

 

Also, the fact is that GW actively encourages counts as, even (or maybe especially) for special characters. If you feel that your homebrewed Chaos Lord "Captain D00dmeister of the Dark D00dz" is better off being represented by the rules for Lucius the Eternal that's exactly what GW wants you to do.

[Wade Garrett]

 

The chance that an Undivided Legion - Alpha Legion, Word Bearers, Night Lords and Iron Warriors - will ally with any cult units in any situation besides during a Black Crusade is pretty much the same as a chance that you'll get hit by a meteor, right now, while you're reading this post. Alpha Legion and Night Lords don't like Chaos very much, Word Bearers see worshipping individual Chaos gods as heresy and Iron Warriors care only for guns and hate mutation.

 

Oh, really?

 

Night Lords: The Exalted, the Astartes formerly known as Vandred and now a Champion of Tzeencht, and Daemon Prince Krieg Acerbus say "Hi. What's all this about us not liking Chaos?"

 

Iron Warriors: Daemon Prince Barban Falk, Khorne worshipper Kroeger, and Honsou "Sweet! I was possesed for a while! It was awesome!" say "Hi. Guns work better when they're possesed by daemons and shoot the souls of tortured wizards."

 

Word Bearers: Marduke's Host includes Khalaxes and his squad, who are stated to worship Khorne to the exlusion of all else, but they're so good at killing things the Dark Apostles look the other way.

 

The Alpha Legion: Suuuure they don't like Chaos. Suuuuuuure they have super secret plan to save the day and fix everything that's wrong in Warhammer 40K. Because Alpharius Omegon was smarter than the Emperor! Smarter than Magnus! Smarter than than the very Chaos Gods themselves! Every instance of his Legion using sorcerers, being possesed, summoning daemons...trust the Hydra. It's all going according to plan. Because he's the smartest.

[Zhorzh]

 

AL's toolbox consists of anything they can use, and that very much includes cult units.

 

No because they don't have constant access to Cult units. It's like saying that your toolbox consists of anything you can use, including a screwdriver that you don't have in this moment but you'll buy it at the end of the week.

 

 

But if you got a battle to win, why not hire that Thousand Sons sorcerer and his rubric with any sorcerous artifacts they might find or psychic adepts...or a cadre of Khorne Berzerkers roaming about might be 'happy' to know that there will be a lot of skulls to be had in an upcoming assault. Why waste precious Alpha Legionnaires when there are so many easily tricked (they got fooled into servitude by their gods, after all) marines out there to do the work for you, for a small price...

 

Look, I can't say it's not possible that AL could hire or trick other cults into doing their bidding, but it's bloody rare, and it shouldn't be taken as something that happens all the time. It's much easier often better to hire some cultists and call it a day. Cult Marines would like something in return or make demands, while a Cultist is happy just by doing something for the top servants of Chaos and getting favour of the gods (or thinking he's getting a favour).

 

 

Never heard of AL doing open battles? Ever heard of Istvaan V? Or Vraks? Or Ghorstangrad? Sometimes there is a need for the superior brutality of astartes in a battle, and AL aren't stupid.

 

I haven't read about Vraks, and I don't remember Ghorstangrad, but wasn't the battle for Istvaan V a suprise attack, not a standard open conflict?

 

 

AL cultists and operatives suit their plans better, but why limit yourself...that's what other legions would do. Use your tools! A carpenter wouldn't use a screwdriver to hack off a plank of wood, would he? They perhaps wouldn't do anything different, but again, why waste Alpha Legionnaires when there are cheap cannon fodder that you can hire with a promise of glory and slaughter...they'll be in the front line taking major casualities anyway, and the AL could easily dispose of any remnants afterwards if they wanted to...

 

What are tryjng to say? Are you talking about cultists, or traitor Guard (I forgot about them!)? And they will always preffer operatives and cultists because they perfectly suit their way of life.

 

 

AL gets cultists to dabble with daemons, daemons are a tool as well, a highly corrupting tool, thus the Alpha Legion handle them by proxy...cultists are expendable and comes in the million.

 

I never said that I wouldn't be ok with AL armies with Daemon allies. Actually that hasn't crossed my mind at all.

 

Wade, what does that have anything to do with Undivided Legions having Cult units, especially that Alpha Legion bit (Alpharius had such a good plan yet it utterly failed!)?! Being marked doesn't equal being a Cult Marine.

[Warsmith Aznable]

The glory of being a Chaos Marine is that anything is possible so long as you're willing to risk everything to reach it.

 

A sizable percentage of Chaos Space Marines have spent an unreckonable amount of time in Space Hell having their perspectives changed. At the dawn of the 41st Millennium a bunch of these guys get loose in the galaxy. No small amount of them are going to defy convention: Sorcerers who were once World Eaters; Iron Warriors obsessed with speed; morose Emperor's Children dedicated to Nurgle; Alpha Legionnaires who take skulls for Khorne; at least one warband who goes into combat with nothing but a pair of boots and a party hat.

 

How? Aeons in Space Hell.

 

Why? Aeons in Space Hell.

 

Conformity is for loyalists.

[Wade Garrett]

The glory of being a Chaos Marine is that anything is possible so long as you're willing to risk everything to reach it...at least one warband who goes into combat with nothing but a pair of boots and a party hat.

Don't the "normal" Emperor's Children have that schtick already?

[Dam13n]

Yep, the Emperors Children Giggling Pansies Chapter led by Chapter Master Ticklus Maximus.

 

:P

 

Nice to see some humour to break up the argument...

[Ammonius]

(snipped good stuff)... morose Emperor's Children dedicated to Nurgle ...(snipped good stuff)

Oh my!

I think I need to assemble some marines that hail from the "Perfection of Decay" warband.

[Excessus]

 

 

AL's toolbox consists of anything they can use, and that very much includes cult units.

 

No because they don't have constant access to Cult units. It's like saying that your toolbox consists of anything you can use, including a screwdriver that you don't have in this moment but you'll buy it at the end of the week.

They don't have to have constant access to them to be able to use them. They would use them when available, I never said anything else. It's like knowing you are going to assemble some shelves and make sure you have a screwdriver at home for the occasion.

 

 

 

But if you got a battle to win, why not hire that Thousand Sons sorcerer and his rubric with any sorcerous artifacts they might find or psychic adepts...or a cadre of Khorne Berzerkers roaming about might be 'happy' to know that there will be a lot of skulls to be had in an upcoming assault. Why waste precious Alpha Legionnaires when there are so many easily tricked (they got fooled into servitude by their gods, after all) marines out there to do the work for you, for a small price...

 

Look, I can't say it's not possible that AL could hire or trick other cults into doing their bidding, but it's bloody rare, and it shouldn't be taken as something that happens all the time. It's much easier often better to hire some cultists and call it a day. Cult Marines would like something in return or make demands, while a Cultist is happy just by doing something for the top servants of Chaos and getting favour of the gods (or thinking he's getting a favour).

It might not happen all the time, but it happens! And yeah, cultists need little inscentive to do anyone's bidding, but they are also pathetically weak when faced with a real threat. Cult marines would demand something in return for sure, but they would also perform accordingly...

 

 

 

Never heard of AL doing open battles? Ever heard of Istvaan V? Or Vraks? Or Ghorstangrad? Sometimes there is a need for the superior brutality of astartes in a battle, and AL aren't stupid.

 

I haven't read about Vraks, and I don't remember Ghorstangrad, but wasn't the battle for Istvaan V a suprise attack, not a standard open conflict?

Vraks is from FW and has Alpha Legion taking over a world and inviting other warbands to join them (cult warbands of Nurgle and Khorne), they fight on the frontline(they are even in the armylist as elite choices) and work as instructors for the common soldiery. Ghorstangrad is where they infiltrate the recruiting world of the Emperor's Swords chapter for 300 years, and then invade the planet in full force. While invading they do a bunch hypnotic attacks that sends their unknowing infiltrators against their brothers. Istvaan V was very much all out war, they were on the ground in force and fought together with all the other legions. Yes it was a surprise attack, but they weren't really under-represented in the second wave. The popular myth that the Alpha legion are only operating as sneaky spy-marines is just that, a myth. They are marines, their role is in battle. The sneakyness is the prelude to open conflict!

 

 

 

AL cultists and operatives suit their plans better, but why limit yourself...that's what other legions would do. Use your tools! A carpenter wouldn't use a screwdriver to hack off a plank of wood, would he? They perhaps wouldn't do anything different, but again, why waste Alpha Legionnaires when there are cheap cannon fodder that you can hire with a promise of glory and slaughter...they'll be in the front line taking major casualities anyway, and the AL could easily dispose of any remnants afterwards if they wanted to...

 

What are tryjng to say? Are you talking about cultists, or traitor Guard (I forgot about them!)? And they will always preffer operatives and cultists because they perfectly suit their way of life.

One doesn't have to mean the exclusion of the other. They can have cultist and cults at the same time. They aren't mutually exclusive...

 

 

 

AL gets cultists to dabble with daemons, daemons are a tool as well, a highly corrupting tool, thus the Alpha Legion handle them by proxy...cultists are expendable and comes in the million.

 

I never said that I wouldn't be ok with AL armies with Daemon allies. Actually that hasn't crossed my mind at all.

Well, the universe is a big place, and there are all kinds of situations and unholy alliances and pacts. Even the brainwashed loyalists fall to chaos, why can't Alpha legionnaires? Khorne Berzerkers aren't exclusive to the World Eaters or the Black Legion...it's just that they are the best at implanting the nails. Noise marines aren't exclusive to the Emperor's Children, even though that is where they started 10,000 years before!

[Kol Saresk]

Don't forget Excessus, not even all Berzerkers have the Nails!

[totgeboren]

Don't forget Excessus, not even all Berzerkers have the Nails!

Are you sure about that? I remember a thread similar to this where A D-B gave as an example how the Word Bearers could have Berzerkers. The explanations was that maybe some WB Apothecary had been seconded to a WE warband and learned of how to make and implant the Nails, so when he returned to his legion he would have the means of making Word Bearer Berzerkers. Up until then I saw the Cults are simply being marked by their god, but both in the previous codex and this codex there is a difference between being marked and belonging to a cult. I think the idea is that all the cults are separated by more than just dedication to their God. The Rubrics are easy, but the Berzerkers have the Nails, Noise Marines seem to have had their brains re-engineered to only experience ecstasy (not to mention their rather peculiar weapons), Plague Marines are not just 'extra favoured', they have undergone some sort of ritual and so on.

[the jeske]

Wait and when would he return , pre heresy the implantation was seen as bad by all legions ,Durning the heresy the WE would have no time to send a single apothecary back to his own legion . So this would mean that the single dude would have to be a survive  the the landing on terra[the WE taken the biggest loses durning the siege , the chance of a apo surviving is rather low] , dont get killed by WE durning the legion wars and then return to his legion somehow . Now am not saying that it is not possible , but it borders on female marines. Not to mention the fact that after his return , his brothers would have to be ok with him puting nails in to legion marines . A dude they havent seen for a some time .

 

now as others said game/army wise it is unimportant if your plague marines are pms , siege dudes , dark mechanics dudes with fields and med packs etc But fluff wise cult marines living among WB make as much sense as ortodox monks worshiping only the holy spirit as their god and while many things can be explained with mind control/toolbox/merc/etc , WB are kind of a those religious zelots . And one of the traits of those is not knowing what compromise is . Again this is not about a WB company paying a 1ksons cabal with X to do Y . this is about tzeench worship only [and chaos gods are kind of a exclusive in worship , if you realy want to be cult] WB living alongside their brothers.

[totgeboren]

Wait and when would he return , pre heresy the implantation was seen as bad by all legions ,Durning the heresy the WE would have no time to send a single apothecary back to his own legion . So this would mean that the single dude would have to be a survive  the the landing on terra[the WE taken the biggest loses durning the siege , the chance of a apo surviving is rather low] , dont get killed by WE durning the legion wars and then return to his legion somehow . Now am not saying that it is not possible , but it borders on female marines. Not to mention the fact that after his return , his brothers would have to be ok with him puting nails in to legion marines . A dude they havent seen for a some time .

 

now as others said game/army wise it is unimportant if your plague marines are pms , siege dudes , dark mechanics dudes with fields and med packs etc But fluff wise cult marines living among WB make as much sense as ortodox monks worshiping only the holy spirit as their god and while many things can be explained with mind control/toolbox/merc/etc , WB are kind of a those religious zelots . And one of the traits of those is not knowing what compromise is . Again this is not about a WB company paying a 1ksons cabal with X to do Y . this is about tzeench worship only [and chaos gods are kind of a exclusive in worship , if you realy want to be cult] WB living alongside their brothers.

 

I think you take it a bit too far. Say a WB warband and a WE warband are fighting together during a conflict. Lets say that as tribute the WE get some Khornate Icon that aids in the summoning of daemonic forces, and the WB get one of the WE Apothecaries to show him how the Nails are constructed and implanted. Done.

I mean, 10,000 years is a long time, and a lot of WE/WB interactions will most likely have taken place.

Or maybe the Sanctified, who are mainly Khornate Word Bearers have learned it from some Berzerkers who joined them, and then they took that knowledge back to their Legion?

 

But sure, Noise Marines in a WB host is a bit like a gospel choir in an Augustinian cloister, only 100 times more clashing.

[Kol Saresk]

Don't forget Excessus, not even all Berzerkers have the Nails!

Are you sure about that? I remember a thread similar to this where A D-B gave as an example how the Word Bearers could have Berzerkers. The explanations was that maybe some WB Apothecary had been seconded to a WE warband and learned of how to make and implant the Nails, so when he returned to his legion he would have the means of making Word Bearer Berzerkers. Up until then I saw the Cults are simply being marked by their god, but both in the previous codex and this codex there is a difference between being marked and belonging to a cult. I think the idea is that all the cults are separated by more than just dedication to their God. The Rubrics are easy, but the Berzerkers have the Nails, Noise Marines seem to have had their brains re-engineered to only experience ecstasy (not to mention their rather peculiar weapons), Plague Marines are not just 'extra favoured', they have undergone some sort of ritual and so on.

As I said before, in the audiodrama Perfection, the Berzerkers of the Hellhounds were referred to as "chrono-gladiators" and instead of Nails they had some sort of bomb implanted into their foreheads that would explode when they died.

Theoretically one could count Uzas since I've seen more Berzerker characters act more coherently than him.

The Berzerkers' bio in the C:CSM only says that the Black Legion and World Eaters had the best surgeons for implanting the Nails but the surgeons who were originally World Eaters are spread far and wode. Who can say that maybe someone sucked so bad they created something new?

EDIT: There was also the Flesh Tearer from Chosen of Khorne who was a gene-descendant of Sanguinius(Chapter was never clarified so it could be that he was a Flesh Tearer or it was just a nickname) who was Terrogar's(spelling?) most prized champion.

[the jeske]

 

The Berzerkers' bio in the C:CSM only says that the Black Legion and

World Eaters had the best surgeons for implanting the Nails but the

surgeons who were originally World Eaters are spread far and wode

but how many of those are actualy alive . we took huge loses durning the heresy , specialy durning the siege and their officers were not known for siting at the back . then there were the legion wars when they were killing each other , the EC and broke up . 10k years later there shouldnt be many left alive to know how to implant the nails . specialy as the nails themselfs were a bad copy of the implants Angi had . to make new/different ones the apothecary would have to[aside for being alive] also have a lot of techmarine knowladge , something the WE werent known to be experts at[unlike the BL who not only made discoveries themselfs , but also invented new stuff and even upgraded SDT].

 

 

 

 

I think you take it a bit too far. Say a WB warband and a WE warband are

fighting together during a conflict. Lets say that as tribute the WE

get some Khornate Icon that aids in the summoning of daemonic forces,

and the WB get one of the WE Apothecaries to show him how the Nails are

constructed and implanted. Done.

 

See this automaticly shows your uncareful living in the west made you  . You never , ever show you stuff to the other dudes ,specialy if you know how something is made and not only used . What if they find a way to use the nails against you ?+ they dont worship khorn exclusivly which is a heresy for a khorn marked person in the first place. Your not going to let non WE people put imlants which are a copy of the holy implants your primarch had. Working for someone is ok , specialy if you dont have your own transport [or the transport is erratic] , but sharing stuff is not . Chaos doesnt share . The chaos gods are not known for sharing [in w40k we have 2 dudes they were ok with sharing anyone else who tries to god hop ends as a spawn , if he is lucky].

 

 

But sure, Noise Marines in a WB host is a bit like a gospel choir in an Augustinian cloister, only 100 times more clashing.

how would they get the tech ? the only ones who have sonic weapons were EC that belong to one sub cult [ EC are not all NM] and they are the only ones who are armed with the weapons . A non NM dude , even if he was a EC wouldnt be able to use a sonic weapon [or die trying]. the first NM made by Bile had to undergo serious modifications to even think about using the weapons .

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

The Berzerkers' bio in the C:CSM only says that the Black Legion and

World Eaters had the best surgeons for implanting the Nails but the

surgeons who were originally World Eaters are spread far and wode

but how many of those are actualy alive . we took huge loses durning the heresy , specialy durning the siege and their officers were not known for siting at the back . then there were the legion wars when they were killing each other , the EC and broke up . 10k years later there shouldnt be many left alive to know how to implant the nails . specialy as the nails themselfs were a bad copy of the implants Angi had . to make new/different ones the apothecary would have to[aside for being alive] also have a lot of techmarine knowladge , something the WE werent known to be experts at[unlike the BL who not only made discoveries themselfs , but also invented new stuff and even upgraded SDT].

 

 

One, you do remember that even Ferrus Manus complimented the World Eaters mechanized formations right?(Betrayal by Alan Bligh) Also, if the losses were so devastating, how could the World Eaters afford for any of them to leave to join the Black Legion which was formed after the Heresy was over? After the Scourge? After they had been the punching bag of pretty much every warband in the Eye. All the way until Abaddon turned to the Sons of Horus that were still following him, gave some rousing speech, painted their armor black and then attacked the Horus clones and destroyed the body of their primogenitor. You do remember that bit of fluff don't you?

 

Also, if technically in general was that scarce, then 1.)how in the blazes did Abaddon afford to not just build one Planetkiller, but two? and 2.)explain Zhufor. I guess they just salvaged some Nails from dead World Eaters and hammered them in.

 

And this is what the Codex says on the matter:

 

Page 44, C:CSM

After the World Eaters Legion disbanded during the fighting on Skalathrax, most Berzerkers formed separate warbands, and many bastardised practices of lobotomisation spread to the other Chaos Space Marines with them. Abaddon, in particular, has recruited a number of highly skilled Berzerker-surgeons to his cause, and only the Black Legion is even close to the World Eaters in their perfection of this barbaric practice.

So, there are Berzerker-surgeons out there who owe fealty to neither the Black Legion nor the World Eaters but to whatever Chaos Space Marine forces happened to be near Skalathrax or were willing to offer shelter, which would mostly be Undivided warbands, whether they be Word Bearers or Iron Warriors, maybe the Alpha Legion, and unless this was after Tsugualsa was purged, the majority of the Night Lords should still be in the Eastern Fringe but there could have been a splinter warband of them or pretty much any other Legion that welcomed them with open arms. Or a cost.

 

 

I think you take it a bit too far. Say a WB warband and a WE warband are

fighting together during a conflict. Lets say that as tribute the WE

get some Khornate Icon that aids in the summoning of daemonic forces,

and the WB get one of the WE Apothecaries to show him how the Nails are

constructed and implanted. Done.

 

See this automaticly shows your uncareful living in the west made you  . You never , ever show you stuff to the other dudes ,specialy if you know how something is made and not only used . What if they find a way to use the nails against you ?+ they dont worship khorn exclusivly which is a heresy for a khorn marked person in the first place. Your not going to let non WE people put imlants which are a copy of the holy implants your primarch had. Working for someone is ok , specialy if you dont have your own transport [or the transport is erratic] , but sharing stuff is not . Chaos doesnt share . The chaos gods are not known for sharing [in w40k we have 2 dudes they were ok with sharing anyone else who tries to god hop ends as a spawn , if he is lucky].

 

 

And yet the Black Legion relies on people from the Cult Legions showing them their tricks just so they can make more. And they don't exclusively worship Khorne. Or Nurgle. Or Slaanesh. Or Tzeentch.

 

 

But sure, Noise Marines in a WB host is a bit like a gospel choir in an Augustinian cloister, only 100 times more clashing.

how would they get the tech ? the only ones who have sonic weapons were EC that belong to one sub cult [ EC are not all NM] and they are the only ones who are armed with the weapons . A non NM dude , even if he was a EC wouldnt be able to use a sonic weapon [or die trying]. the first NM made by Bile had to undergo serious modifications to even think about using the weapons .

 

 

And yet the first weapons were actually musical insturments that had been warp tainted.(Fulgrim by Graham McNeill) Also, this is why I pointed out that the Word Bearers do have a form of sonic weaponry. Granted, at the moment the Discrods are only subliminal, but the point still stands that if they wanted to make it backpacked or more potent, they probably could since they have the entire Forgeworld Ghalmek at their disposal.

 

This is also why I pointed out that Imperials even have sonic weaponry.

 

And actually, looking at the Noise Marines section in the Codex, not once is experimental surgery mentioned. In fact, it directly states that a Noise Marine's enhanced physiology is a direct result of being blessed by Slaanesh.

 

Page 47, C: CSM 6th Edition

As just one example of the rewards granted by the Prince of Pleasure to those who worship him, a Noise Marine's hearing is a thousand times more sensitive than normal. They can distinguish the subtlest pitch in tone or volume, but are only able to enjoy the most deafening of cacophonies. Such raucous sensory input electrifies the Noise Marine's brain, causing extreme emotional stimulation that makes all other sensations seem pale and worthless. The louder and more discordant the noise, the more extreme the emotional reaction provoked. Only the din of battle and the screams of the dying can truly stir a Noise Marine's attention for long. On the battlefield, his mind ceases to function normally and instead becomes a mere receptacle for the sensations ignited by the music of the apocalypse, thrilling to hear the shrieks of the wounded as they dance upon the path of destruction.

 

Regardless of the faction, Noise Marines wear armour painted in various bold colors, as their senses are so distorted that only the most extravagant shades and patterns register to their minds. Though the staccato bark and blast of boltgun is music to the Noise Marine's ears, many specialize in the use of a variety of outlandish sound-based weapons. The most common of these are the sonic blaster, the blastmaster and the doom siren, each of which produces a series of deafeningly loud, psychosonically explosive attacks that shake and tear the enemy apart.

[Dam13n]

Kol - the Original Noise Marines in "Fulgrim" were enhanced (at least prior to the concert) thanks to Fabius' surgeries and stimulants. One might assume that similar practices still occur, after all Fabius is still kicking around, and the idea of other apothecaries twisted by the dark gods following in his footsteps isn't unrealistic given the fabric of 40k.

 

I believe there is the apothecary in ADBs Night Lords books (I forget his name) who is somewhat twisted, although not quite in the same vein as Fabius.

 

The codex supports the idea of the hearing being due to "Slaanesh's blessings" but, almost in keeping with the theme of this thread, it's not the only way said "enhanced senses" can be explained.

 

It could even be a mixture of surgical enhancement, stimulant abuse, warp taint and Slaanesh's blessings that combine to produce the desired effect. Of course a Noise Marine is a fanatic of the cult of Slaanesh, so just like with some modern religious fanatics - anything that benefits you is a gift from your god, regardless of how you come by it. Plus, the fluff in the codices is often written from the point of view of the subject faction, so could be biased in that way.

[Kol Saresk]

Kol - the Original Noise Marines in "Fulgrim" were enhanced (at least prior to the concert) thanks to Fabius' surgeries and stimulants. One might assume that similar practices still occur, after all Fabius is still kicking around, and the idea of other apothecaries twisted by the dark gods following in his footsteps isn't unrealistic given the fabric of 40k.

Trust me, I remember when the Captain of the Third Company started taking drugs and then picked up a guitar of death and finally getting killed by a deaf Iron Hand(although the last bit was in Angel Exterminatus). I was just merely pointing out that according to the Codex, those apparent augmentations are not necessary to become a Noise Marine. The originals maybe, but whatever the new breed is, it is different.

I believe there is the apothecary in ADBs Night Lords books (I forget his name) who is somewhat twisted, although not quite in the same vein as Fabius.

Variel the Flayer? He was sadistic but IIRC, he didn't really do anything even close to the scale of Fabius Bile. It was Talos who tortured the psykers into a warp bomb.

The codex supports the idea of the hearing being due to "Slaanesh's blessings" but, almost in keeping with the theme of this thread, it's not the only way said "enhanced senses" can be explained.

Exactly. That just happens to be how the "mainstream" Noise Marines function.

It could even be a mixture of surgical enhancement, stimulant abuse, warp taint and Slaanesh's blessings that combine to produce the desired effect. Of course a Noise Marine is a fanatic of the cult of Slaanesh, so just like with some modern religion fanatics - anything that benefits you is a gift from your god, regardless of how you come by it. Plus, the fluff in the codices is often written from the point of view of the subject faction, so could be biased in that way.

Very, very true.