What happened to the Thunder Warriors

[godking]

As to why the Thunder Warrior needed to be culled...given what we see of Ghota and Arik (bodies on hooks EVERYWHERE!) my personal explanation is that they were a lot closer to, say...the World Eaters (not War Hounds) or the Night Lords than the Ultramarines or the Salamanders.

 

Blunt instrument, fill it full of bolter shells and dismember what's left with chainswords, it's an act of incredible willpower for me to NOT kill everything around me at any given moment types. Fine for when the Emperor was taking a world. When it came time to start the Great Crusade (long voyages. In confined environments. Also, maybe we could try some diplomacy with some of the human worlds that aren't too daemony, too xenos, or too reliant on Abominable Intelligences) the Thunder Warriors were absolutely the wrong tool for the job.

 

So....an army of violence prone supermen. Turn them loose to do Emperor knows what on the Homeworld? Given that the Emperor does, if not know, have a pretty good idea of what the Thunder Warriors would do once loosed from his leash, he either kills them himself or has the Custodians do.

Thats probably the reason why the emperor ordered them culled.

 

Personally in the emperor's place i would not have culled them i would have kept them  around as an executioners force  the role that the space wolves usurped for themselves.

 

 

I would have used them on worlds where everybody absolutly had to die with the most fierce resistance.

 

I would not have created new Thunder warriors  letting natural attrition wittle them down

 

Drop them on a hostile world come back after a month or two when everything is dead pick them up and use them on the next world where everybody has to die.

 

And from what we have seen from Arik and Ghota is that allthough they are cruel and merciless warriors unlike the world eaters they are not partially lobotomised and can be restrained somewhat.

 

If there was a place for Worldeaters Nightlords and Eversor assasins there should have been a place for the thunder warriors.

 

In this scenario after 200 years of crusading  the emperor would probably still have a sizable non astartes force left even after natural attrition to use against traitor legions.

 

Out of curiosity, are there any mentions of TW falling to chaos, using sorcery or being generally heretical at all?

There was mention in the outcast dead i believe that thunder warriors where immune to psykers.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

 

As to why the Thunder Warrior needed to be culled...given what we see of Ghota and Arik (bodies on hooks EVERYWHERE!) my personal explanation is that they were a lot closer to, say...the World Eaters (not War Hounds) or the Night Lords than the Ultramarines or the Salamanders.

 

Blunt instrument, fill it full of bolter shells and dismember what's left with chainswords, it's an act of incredible willpower for me to NOT kill everything around me at any given moment types. Fine for when the Emperor was taking a world. When it came time to start the Great Crusade (long voyages. In confined environments. Also, maybe we could try some diplomacy with some of the human worlds that aren't too daemony, too xenos, or too reliant on Abominable Intelligences) the Thunder Warriors were absolutely the wrong tool for the job.

 

So....an army of violence prone supermen. Turn them loose to do Emperor knows what on the Homeworld? Given that the Emperor does, if not know, have a pretty good idea of what the Thunder Warriors would do once loosed from his leash, he either kills them himself or has the Custodians do.

Thats probably the reason why the emperor ordered them culled.

 

Personally in the emperor's place i would not have culled them i would have kept them  around as an executioners force  the role that the space wolves usurped for themselves.

 

 

I would have used them on worlds where everybody absolutly had to die with the most fierce resistance.

 

I would not have created new Thunder warriors  letting natural attrition wittle them down

 

Drop them on a hostile world come back after a month or two when everything is dead pick them up and use them on the next world where everybody has to die.

 

And from what we have seen from Arik and Ghota is that allthough they are cruel and merciless warriors unlike the world eaters they are not partially lobotomised and can be restrained somewhat.

 

If there was a place for Worldeaters Nightlords and Eversor assasins there should have been a place for the thunder warriors.

 

In this scenario after 200 years of crusading  the emperor would probably still have a sizable non astartes force left even after natural attrition to use against traitor legions.

 

>Out of curiosity, are there any mentions of TW falling to chaos, using sorcery or being generally heretical at all?

There was mention in the outcast dead i believe that thunder warriors where immune to psykers.

 

dunno about the psyker immunity thing. The only relevant quote I was able to find was regarding the cognoscynths, p. 254

 

‘The cognoscynths could maintain that first sensation,’ said Gregoras. ‘Every time they touched the warp was like the first time. They became addicted to the power, and it is said they were virtually immune to the dangers of the warp. 

 

right after that they describe the Emp creating superhuman warriors, probably the Thunder Warriors, but nothing about immunity to the Warp. Likely that the Emperor psychically shielded his troops in battle from the cognoscynths 

 

 

 

[Kol Saresk]

 

Out of curiosity, are there any mentions of TW falling to chaos, using sorcery or being generally heretical at all?

Well, I guess you could count the group that helped the insurrectionists of Cerberus mining colony as being heretics, but not really.

[Wade Garrett]

The psyker immunity thing I believe comes from the Thousand Sons description of touching Ghota's mind, he describes it as a "fortress bristling with defenses and traps". On the other hand, someone like Kor Phereon or Ahriman could probably smash that fortress, disable the traps, and Tzeencht's your uncle.

[Aegnor]

None that I've ever seen. Seems pretty unlikely given they never deployed off world and Emperor and Malcador were personally leading the armies at the time. Given their power, I think they'd be able to detect sorcery/ chaotic incursions on Terra.

[Kol Saresk]

That wouldn't mean it didn't happen, just that it was dealt with in a much faster, cleaner way though as they'd be right there to see it. As far as dissent, it certainly is a plausibility. We do know that at least the manner of their death was falsified, who knows, some minor rebellion of insane Thunder Warriors wasn't hidden either, especially since at least one group led/helped an insurrection against the Imperium.

[Raven Angel]

I have been re listening to Outcast dead and it got to where Arik Taranis confronts the SM and Athava can't even look at him because his mind is so powerful. The description combined with Taranis' size and battle record make me wonder if he is more then just another thunder warrior. What if he is a thunder warrior primarch?

[Kol Saresk]

Not sure if there was such a thing, but as I've pointed out before, there is little we really do know about the Thunder Warriors. I do know that Arik Tanis was recognized by the Emperor personally and elevated to be the Lightning Bearer. Hmm, for some reason I remember something saying that the Thunder Warriors also had to fight psykers. Is it possible that the defenses are simply a result of learning to defend his own mind?

[Raven Angel]

Well I hit on the idea for 3 reasons,

1. Arik Taranis was able to learn gene crafting from the Emperor in person well enough to try and make his own SM. All things considered it is unlikly the Emperor would have become that close to a regular warrior. Such interaction mirrors what we know about His interactions with several of the Primarchs

 

2. To a psyker Taranis looks like the a Primarch, but Ghota does not even though he is a thunder warrior too.

 

3. Taranis calls Ghota "My son" and he chooses to a name for himself that in part means Father

 

And I did some digging and found that apparently in the time before British control over India the Ranks of Subedar and Jamadar where for a regional Governor or Lord and his head General in that part of the world.

[Kol Saresk]

Very good points. Although it is plausible that Tanis wasn't the only one who learned some gene-crafting as there was an entire group of Thunder Warriors who died on Cerberus.

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Suprisingly, Raven Angel's theory makes a certain bit of sense. I don't know what it is; it fits in okay, with it's own share of compatibility issues, with the missing primarchs information that we have, but most theories have those issues anyways. Totally valid dude. 

[Raven Angel]

Very good points. Although it is plausible that Tanis wasn't the only one who learned some gene-crafting as there was an entire group of Thunder Warriors who died on Cerberus.

 

Cerberus likely refers to the asteroid 1865 Cerberus  discover in the 1970 dating the action to either the end of the conquest of the Sol system or the very beginning of the Great Crusade so roughly 200 years before the HH.

 

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=3&cad=rja&ved=0CEIQFjAC&url=http%3A%2F%2Fssd.jpl.nasa.gov%2Fsbdb.cgi%3Forb%3D1%3Bsstr%3D1865&ei=fad6Uc2UMoqq8AS0lYCYBg&usg=AFQjCNExa5IWed6TStGtGwsdC8kaDZbHPA&sig2=fUfBCAF0u5q6OPWaJdfhwQ&bvm=bv.45645796,d.eWU

 

The name Dait'Tar appears to be a non since concoction of an Vietnamese and English words for drifting and a sailor. In context the closest synonym would be the word ronin. Looking through the short account there appears to be no references to genetic experiments so that part is highly speculative.

[godking]

The psyker immunity thing I believe comes from the Thousand Sons description of touching Ghota's mind, he describes it as a "fortress bristling with defenses and traps". On the other hand, someone like Kor Phereon or Ahriman could probably smash that fortress, disable the traps, and Tzeencht's your uncle.

Ahriman maybe Kor Phaeron no.

 

What evidence is there of Kor Phaeron's psyker skills ?

 

I know that Kor Phaeron was ''favored'' by the Chaos gods but i have not read any evidence of Kor Phaeron having innate psyker skills.

 

Ghota also claimed that what Roxanne did to his men when she opened her third eye would not work on him and he knew that she was a Navigator.

[Brannick]

I can see Taranis being amongst the party to beam aboard the Vengeful Spirit; there's definitely a plot twist for him somewhere along the lines.

 

:grin:

[[TA]Typher]

Diabetes.

[Wade Garrett]

Blasting Roboute Guilliman with enough evil space magic to leave him temporarily helpless

suggests Kor has a not inconsiderable amount of power to play with.

[godking]

Blasting Roboute Guilliman with enough evil space magic to leave him temporarily helpless

suggests Kor has a not inconsiderable amount of power to play with.

That proves that Kor Phaeron had power and warp lore .

 

That does not prove that he is a psyker on the level of Ahriman.

 

There is a difference between being a trained psyker and someone with warp lore.

 

You dont need to be a psyker to use warp lore.

 

I would pick Ahriman above Kor for psyker related work everytime.

[Vesper]

 

Blasting Roboute Guilliman with enough evil space magic to leave him temporarily helpless

suggests Kor has a not inconsiderable amount of power to play with.

That proves that Kor Phaeron had power and warp lore .

 

That does not prove that he is a psyker on the level of Ahriman.

 

There is a difference between being a trained psyker and someone with warp lore.

 

You dont need to be a psyker to use warp lore.

 

I would pick Ahriman above Kor for psyker related work everytime.

There's difference between being a psyker and having "warp lore" ? And what about being supported by the spirit of a planet ?

Kor Phaeron sure has the favours of the Chaos gods. Their powers are warp related, it's waht you call "warp lore". But psykers take their powers from the warp. It's pretty fallacious to even think there's a difference based on such a shaky distinction. The power level (because that what you're talking about) might not only be related to the mastering of such power. Ahriman sure is a powerful psyker. It's a genetic mutation, and he has this gift/curse manifesting in a strong way within him. But Kor Phaeron has the favour of the very source of that power. He is channeling the will of the warp. Just like a psyker Alpha, even without training, would mess a whole planet and whole army just because the power passing through him is insane.

We all know that everytime a psyker uses the warp it's never ever safe for him. And that's for a reason. If Tzeentch choses to screw Ahriman up, he can mess with his warp abilities. Or he can increase those at a perticular moment, to serve his needs, à la Kor Phaeron.

We all know dealing with the warp

[Kol Saresk]

The difference is that you don't have to be a psyker to use warp lore. You use things like Enuncia to "persuade" the warp to do what you want it to. A minor telepath could read people's thoughts and send small warnings. Kor Phaeron will never be able to do that. A powerful telekine will be able to create a miniature hurricane in a room and throw everyone around. Kor Phaeron has to speak a word that shakes the fabric of reality to create a facsimile that does something similar.

 

Just look at Luther.

 

Anyone can be a sorcerer. Bind a few daemons here or there, learn some words of power, presto. But not everyone can be a psyker. A psyker's power comes with risks, but without sacrifice. A sorcerer's abilities come with both.

[Wade Garrett]

Luther?

 

Do you mean Lorgar?

 

Because he's definitely a psyker, given that he was communicating mind to mind even in The First Heretic.

[Kol Saresk]

No, Luther. In the last Dak Angels novel we see his skin covered in warding runes that were provided by Cypher. I'll pull up a page reference as soon as I get home.

[godking]

 

 

Blasting Roboute Guilliman with enough evil space magic to leave him temporarily helpless

suggests Kor has a not inconsiderable amount of power to play with.

That proves that Kor Phaeron had power and warp lore .

 

That does not prove that he is a psyker on the level of Ahriman.

 

There is a difference between being a trained psyker and someone with warp lore.

 

You dont need to be a psyker to use warp lore.

 

I would pick Ahriman above Kor for psyker related work everytime.

There's difference between being a psyker and having "warp lore" ? And what about being supported by the spirit of a planet ?

Kor Phaeron sure has the favours of the Chaos gods. Their powers are warp related, it's waht you call "warp lore". But psykers take their powers from the warp. It's pretty fallacious to even think there's a difference based on such a shaky distinction. The power level (because that what you're talking about) might not only be related to the mastering of such power. Ahriman sure is a powerful psyker. It's a genetic mutation, and he has this gift/curse manifesting in a strong way within him. But Kor Phaeron has the favour of the very source of that power. He is channeling the will of the warp. Just like a psyker Alpha, even without training, would mess a whole planet and whole army just because the power passing through him is insane.

We all know that everytime a psyker uses the warp it's never ever safe for him. And that's for a reason. If Tzeentch choses to screw Ahriman up, he can mess with his warp abilities. Or he can increase those at a perticular moment, to serve his needs, à la Kor Phaeron.

We all know dealing with the warp

Yes there is a difference you are born a psyker

 

Yyou can learn warp lore .

 

Kor Phaeron for all his warp lore cannot read minds or use other psyker abilities.

 

Without his warp lore and pacts with the chaos gods Kor Phaeron is a genbulked old man in terminator armor

 

Ahriman is still a powerful psyker without warp lore and pacts with chaos gods.

[Raven Angel]

I think we wondered a bit off the mark guys, what this got to do with Thunder Warrior psychic defenses?

[Kol Saresk]

Not entirely true, Cyrion was mutated into a psyker. I think the best way to put is that being a psyker is genetic while sorcery is an acquired taste.

 

Now we first see that Luther is wearing some sort of geometric pattern on his hands on page 340 of Fallen Angels by Mike Lee. On page 347, Israfael attacks Luther with "a torrent of crackling energy." The next paragraph the describes how the wards flared up and deflected the energy away from his body. He then spoke a word caused Israfael to bleed from the eyes and ears and stagger backwards. Pages 398 through 401 describe Luther using a grimoire trying to bind the Ouroboros, although he did act through Zahariel for part of the ritual.

 

So yes, I did mean Luther.

 

EDIT:Raven Angel, nothing other than there was a claim Kor Phaeron could probably break down Babu's psychic defenses.

[Raven Angel]

I'm not even sure Ahriman could do it. Athava couldn't even look at Taranis directly and he was suppose to be way up in the Thousand Sons.