Attack Bike v. Landspeeder

[MolonLabe]

Hey fellow Angels!!  I want to get others' opinions on the effectiveness of these two units in various lists.  I typically run dualwing (RW heavy).  I tend to outflank ABMM.  However, when they get into the ultimate position (rear shot on battle tanks), they tend to whiff.  This sometimes costs me first blood as they subsequently get shot at with everything in my enemy's back line.  I am thinking of trying Deep Striking Landspeeder Typhoons w/MM instead.  The point cost difference is 30pts (85 to 55), but I feel that three shots ready to pop vehicles is better than one!!  If any of you have tried this technique let me know how it has worked out.  For others, theoretical feedback is just as helpful, so let me know what you think.

 

I also feel that loading up LS with dual flamers may be a decent/cheap way to deal with horde armies for DW lists.  Using the teleport homer from Belial/Drop Pods may allow you to place them right where they need to be immediately.  Thanks in advance for the feedback!

[march10k]

There is no more points-efficient choice in any codex.  The MMAB can easily (average penetration roll is 15) one-shot a land raider that costs ~5x as much...on turn one, in some cases.  The Typhoon is an excellent choice, too.  There's a difference, though...the MMAB is a "freebie" on the FOC, while the Typhoon, in addition to being less awesome for the points than a MMAB, takes up a precious FA slot.  Nothing wrong with taking one if you think it'll do a better job for you...but it's not better than a MMAB! 

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

MolonLabe (excellent name by the way), I have similar issues as you with the MMAB wiff. However it does make the perfect anti tank when it does work as March10K states. What I like to run is both for Anti Tank if you have the points or can find the points. A deepstrike Landspeeder with MM and HF. If there isn't a spot I can DS and melt a tank then I try and smoke some infantry. if I can't do either for whatever reason then I land some place far off out of LOS and let the enemy forget about it for a few turns then speed up and smoke something. The MMAB is scoring if you choose one of the three options to make him so and I find like March that when he hits its dead. Also good for a homefield objective if you have nothing else for them to do because I find many opponents end up charging some kind of armor for my objectives and a 24" melta gun with two wounds is a pretty good scare for the armor of course the rest of the bikes have to get into position to support but it helps out. Once again mostly theory hammer but my thoughts for anti armor are either 2 RAS meltaguns and a MMAB or the MMAB and the Landspeeder. If I'm really worried about armor all three but then you've got some serious list modification to do.

[Aegnor]

MMAB looks good, shame its so ugly/silly looking. Have never been able to bring my myself to ignore my instinct to laugh at a guy zooming around the battlefield in a sidecar to buy one. Wish they'd redo it as a better concept.

[march10k]

Call me silly, but the average Joe wandering the battlefields of WWII Europe would NOT have been laughing at this:

 

http://www.clash-of-steel.com/gallery/pages/full/WnW_sidecar.jpg

 

...of course, that's mainly because they were only really used for counter-recon...but five scouts cowering in a clump of bushes would just grab some dirt and pray not to be seen if one of these turned up.  If you somehow think they were meant to lead an assault against an enemy position, then, yeah, that would be silly.

[Cod]

Hey, I wouldn't laugh at that even now, it's kinda cool, wish I had one for drive-by's in my town at the moment ;-)

 

But yes, the attack bike with mm is a really good option, especially one as part of a bike unit. I only have one bike unit at the moment but that's what I got, 6 bikes (2 with meltas) and the attack bike also with mm.

Need to get some BK's too now.

[Brother Immolator]

Call me silly, but the average Joe wandering the battlefields of WWII Europe would NOT have been laughing at this:

http://www.clash-of-steel.com/gallery/pages/full/WnW_sidecar.jpg

...of course, that's mainly because they were only really used for counter-recon...but five scouts cowering in a clump of bushes would just grab some dirt and pray not to be seen if one of these turned up. If you somehow think they were meant to lead an assault against an enemy position, then, yeah, that would be silly.

Funny thing, I would laugh hard at it if I was atop a tree with a sniper rifle and seeing that coming at me from two kilometers away

Everything is situational. Hell even a regular mp40 would have a decent chance to 'snipe' the driver from a covered up position.

Double the laugh if I had survived a tank battle the otherday ;)

[elphilo]

I personally hate Land Speeders because of the HP2 and AV10. A single bolter, in the right conditions, can take it down. Stick with the MMAB, the odds will go into your favor eventually and it'll start really showing its worth :)

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

The other thing I forgot to mention. Multiples are your friends! Three regular bikes and a MMAB. So six bikes and your set for four units on the table with homers for termi's and if you load the other three with melta you've got four melta units. I do agree about the landspeeder 2HP it usually dies if someone looks at it wrong so the T5 multi melta with two wounds is always nice.

[Master Avoghai]

I personally hate Land Speeders because of the HP2 and AV10. A single bolter, in the right conditions, can take it down. Stick with the MMAB, the odds will go into your favor eventually and it'll start really showing its worth

Considering a moving LS, it will take statistically 35 bolters shots to shoot it down vs 25 for an AB... So the LS is really more resilient... Of course it may change if you don't move it but why wouldn't you do so?

[elphilo]

 

I personally hate Land Speeders because of the HP2 and AV10. A single bolter, in the right conditions, can take it down. Stick with the MMAB, the odds will go into your favor eventually and it'll start really showing its worth

Considering a moving LS, it will take statistically 35 bolters shots to shoot it down vs 25 for an AB... So the LS is really more resilient... Of course it may change if you don't move it but why wouldn't you do so?

Like I said before, in the right conditions, it can happen. This is a game where if something can happen, it most likely will happen! Which is why I really dislike them. In the end its personal preference  but I've hated them for a while now :P

[Azoriel]

As an aside, if you want to pair your MMAB with something and don't have the points for another RWAS, a single MM Landspeeder is just 5 points more than the MMAB...

[march10k]

 

I personally hate Land Speeders because of the HP2 and AV10. A single bolter, in the right conditions, can take it down. Stick with the MMAB, the odds will go into your favor eventually and it'll start really showing its worth

Considering a moving LS, it will take statistically 35 bolters shots to shoot it down vs 25 for an AB... So the LS is really more resilient... Of course it may change if you don't move it but why wouldn't you do so?

Ah, but figures lie, and liars figure, as the saying goes...statistics mean little in a six turn game....except possibly in the case of 200 guardsmen shooting lasguns every turn...those results might approach the statistical average, lol.   Anyway, it's hard to say that one or the other is more resilient, because it depends on what weapon is shooting at them.  Multilaser?  lasgun?  lascannon? baleflamer?

[march10k]

Call me silly, but the average Joe wandering the battlefields of WWII Europe would NOT have been laughing at this:

http://www.clash-of-steel.com/gallery/pages/full/WnW_sidecar.jpg

...of course, that's mainly because they were only really used for counter-recon...but five scouts cowering in a clump of bushes would just grab some dirt and pray not to be seen if one of these turned up. If you somehow think they were meant to lead an assault against an enemy position, then, yeah, that would be silly.

Funny thing, I would laugh hard at it if I was atop a tree with a sniper rifle and seeing that coming at me from two kilometers away

Everything is situational. Hell even a regular mp40 would have a decent chance to 'snipe' the driver from a covered up position.

Double the laugh if I had survived a tank battle the otherday

~eyeroll~ Movies and video games be damned, unless he's driving straight at you, you're not hitting the driver from 2000m, or even 500m, especially from a perch in a tree. On the other hand, if you're up a tree, you're not going to be moving, making you an easy target after you shoot and miss.

[Brother Immolator]

Call me silly, but the average Joe wandering the battlefields of WWII Europe would NOT have been laughing at this:

~eyeroll~ Movies and video games be damned, unless he's driving straight at you, you're not hitting the driver from 2000m, or even 500m, especially from a perch in a tree. On the other hand, if you're up a tree, you're not going to be moving, making you an easy target after you shoot and miss.

I think you havent been in the army, or am I mistaken?

[Master Avoghai]

Like I said before, in the right conditions, it can happen. This is a game where if something can happen, it most likely will happen! Which is why I really dislike them. In the end its personal preference but I've hated them for a while now

Sure but if you're unlucky enough to lose your LS under 10 bolters shots instead of 35 then you're unlucky enough to lose your AB...

 

Sensibility to bolter shots is not really the things that gives advantages of the AB over LS

 

Ah, but figures lie, and liars figure, as the saying goes...statistics mean little in a six turn game....except possibly in the case of 200 guardsmen shooting lasguns every turn...those results might approach the statistical average, lol. Anyway, it's hard to say that one or the other is more resilient, because it depends on what weapon is shooting at them. Multilaser? lasgun? lascannon? baleflamer?

I prefer "statistics are like bikinis, they give an idea but hide essential" :-p

 

Anyway I'm perfectly aware of that but here we were strictly talking about resilience vs bolter shots. We have 2 units on bases of comparable sizes and both have the same size too. You also don't have any feature such as "need to have a LoS on the rear "like for other tanks since LS is 10/10/10, so there are both sensible to 360 degrees threat.

 

So comparing are not that unuseful and though limitative like any statistical analysis, I find it full of teachings,...

[cielaq]

 

There's a difference, though...the MMAB is a "freebie" on the FOC, while the Typhoon, in addition to being less awesome for the points than a MMAB, takes up a precious FA slot.

Unless I'm missing someting, you can now take any Land Speeder with the RAS, as long as it's 6-bike strong.

[elphilo]

Like I said before, in the right conditions, it can happen. This is a game where if something can happen, it most likely will happen! Which is why I really dislike them. In the end its personal preference but I've hated them for a while now

Sure but if you're unlucky enough to lose your LS under 10 bolters shots instead of 35 then you're unlucky enough to lose your AB...

Sensibility to bolter shots is not really the things that gives advantages of the AB over LS

You're absolutely right. I guess I wasn't very clear in saying "I've hated them for awhile" that I have a bias towards the Land Speeders

[Brother dean]

 

There's a difference, though...the MMAB is a "freebie" on the FOC, while the Typhoon, in addition to being less awesome for the points than a MMAB, takes up a precious FA slot.

Unless I'm missing someting, you can now take any Land Speeder with the RAS, as long as it's 6-bike strong.

Yes, Yes you can...  I am contemplating a MM Typhoon with the squad...

 

We (players) generally fall into the fallacy of playing the last book and not really reading the new book...  So it is not unreasonable that the "any Landspeeder" got missed since in the last book it was only AC/HB speeders...