Markerlights versus the Plasma Syphon

[Gentlemanloser]

 

 but formally the BS of a model is not modified, it simply takes the shot as if was different that it really is.

 

As DS mentions above, how can you make that distinction?  Is it even a distinction at all?

 

Again, if it's not being used as it's 'normal' value, but a 'different' one, then it *must* have been modified, right?

 

 

Technically speaking... any mention of Tau equipment or rules in the BRB FAQ should be ignored, as the current BRB FAQ are older than the current Tau codex.

 

So the Tau Codex can ignore *all* the FAQ answers/Errata/Amendments to the BRB?  And the entire DftS suppliment?

 

Date of release doesn't invalidate contents.

 

(I know exactly what you're saying though.  GW should have just updated the BRB and reworked that FAQ answer.  The statement "no special rule and ever modify the BS1 of a Snap Shot" should be changed)

[Hlakir]

Obviously not all.... just those that contradict the rules in their codex. 

[Gentlemanloser]

So basically everything, unless the FAQ entry goes the way you want it to, of course.  And then back to my question of why bother having a BRB FAQ at all?

 

Edit: Or rather, why bother having a BRB FAQ that address Codex rules.  As everyone just ignores them, as Codex rules > BRB + BRB FAQ.

 

If that makes more sense.

[Hlakir]

What we should perhaps remember is that the BRB FAQ don't contain any questions about specific things from the codecies, but use units, equipment and special rules to provide examples of what they are talking about when answering questions about rules in the BRB.

 

Sometimes when a new codex get released an exemple might suddenly not work anymore as that exemple just received new rules that says the opposit of what the answer to the question says. 

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Sometimes when a new codex get released an exemple might suddenly not work anymore as that exemple just received new rules that says the opposit of what the answer to the question says.

 

If the BRB FAQ isn't updated as well, then that's not true.

 

Consider the position if no examples were given for the Snap Shot BRB question.  And it quite simply said "No special rules of any kind can chan the BS of a Snap Shot from BS1" (which is basically what it says now).

 

Markerlights are changed int he new Dex and state they can increase the BS of Snap Shots.

 

The BRB FAQ stills says globally that *nothing can*.

 

Which takes precedence?

 

The Global BRB answer?  Or the Codex?

 

If it's Codex > BRB FAQ answer, then Signums increase the BS of a Snap Shot.  As does VoE, or antoher other Codex rule.  And the BRB FAQ is worth less than the paper it's written on.

 

That's the problem.

[Morollan]

 

Sometimes when a new codex get released an exemple might suddenly not work anymore as that exemple just received new rules that says the opposit of what the answer to the question says.

 

If the BRB FAQ isn't updated as well, then that's not true.

 

Consider the position if no examples were given for the Snap Shot BRB question.  And it quite simply said "No special rules of any kind can chan the BS of a Snap Shot from BS1" (which is basically what it says now).

 

Markerlights are changed int he new Dex and state they can increase the BS of Snap Shots.

 

The BRB FAQ stills says globally that *nothing can*.

 

Which takes precedence?

 

The Global BRB answer?  Or the Codex?

 

If it's Codex > BRB FAQ answer, then Signums increase the BS of a Snap Shot.  As does VoE, or antoher other Codex rule.  And the BRB FAQ is worth less than the paper it's written on.

 

That's the problem.

 

None of the other items you mention specifically say that they effect Overwatch or Snap Shots. Markerlights do. So basically the situation is that no rule modifies the BS of a Snap Shot unless it specifically says it does.

[Gentlemanloser]

And that flies in the face of global conditions mate. ;)

 

What do VoE/Signums effect then?  If they're not global, and don't effect *everything*, then there must be a list of stuff they *don't* effect.

 

Where is this listed?

 

(And if the Answer is Snap Shots, becuase of the BRB FAQ, we're back to square one and Markerlights can't effect Snap Shots...)

[Morollan]

The only issue here is that there is a contradiction in the BRB FAQ due to it still referring to Markerlights in the FAQ answer despite the new Tau Codex specifically allowing increased BS on overwatch and snap shots. As the FAQ was written before the new Tau Codex and has not been changed since we all know that this is simply an oversight and will almost certainly be amended in a future FAQ. In any event though, the BRB FAQ only changes the contents of the BRB. In the event of a conflict between codex and rulebook the codex wins so Markerlights still increase BS of snap shots and overwatch because the codex says so.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

In any event though, the BRB FAQ only changes the contents of the BRB.
In the event of a conflict between codex and rulebook the codex wins so
Markerlights still increase BS of snap shots and overwatch because the
codex says so.

 

Then you must agree this also holds for VoE and the Signum.

 

Both are conflicts between codex and rulebook, and the codex wins.

[Morollan]

No, because the markerlight specifically overrules the restriction on snap shots and overwatch BS. As mentioned earlier, none of the other items or rules do so. If, for example, the Signum said that it allows the model to gain +1BS on overwatch and snap shots then I'd agree, but it doesn't and hence it falls under the BRB FAQ.

[dswanick]

No, because the markerlight specifically overrules the restriction on snap shots and overwatch BS. As mentioned earlier, none of the other items or rules do so. If, for example, the Signum said that it allows the model to gain +1BS on overwatch and snap shots then I'd agree, but it doesn't and hence it falls under the BRB FAQ.

And where on page 7 does the BRB mention "specific vs general"? Is it before or after Codex > Rulebook? ;)

[Morollan]

No, because the markerlight specifically overrules the restriction on snap shots and overwatch BS. As mentioned earlier, none of the other items or rules do so. If, for example, the Signum said that it allows the model to gain +1BS on overwatch and snap shots then I'd agree, but it doesn't and hence it falls under the BRB FAQ.

And where on page 7 does the BRB mention "specific vs general"? Is it before or after Codex > Rulebook?

Does it really need to even say it? Does it tell you what side of the dice to read or that a model goes with the base at the bottom? If a rulebook tells us that rule x does not operate in a particular instance then in order for a codex to override that then it needs to specifically say so. Markerlights do exactly that but Signums, VoE etc do not. What exactly is the difficulty?

[cielaq]

Well, new FAQ is up:

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that

modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine

Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)

A: No."

They removed Markerlights from the list.

[dswanick]

 

 

 

No, because the markerlight specifically overrules the restriction on snap shots and overwatch BS. As mentioned earlier, none of the other items or rules do so. If, for example, the Signum said that it allows the model to gain +1BS on overwatch and snap shots then I'd agree, but it doesn't and hence it falls under the BRB FAQ.

 

And where on page 7 does the BRB mention "specific vs general"? Is it before or after Codex > Rulebook? ;)

 

Does it really need to even say it? Does it tell you what side of the dice to read or that a model goes with the base at the bottom? If a rulebook tells us that rule x does not operate in a particular instance then in order for a codex to override that then it needs to specifically say so. Markerlights do exactly that but Signums, VoE etc do not. What exactly is the difficulty?

"Does it really need to even say?" - Yes.

 

The difficulty is the BRB rule on page 7, were it tells us that in the case of conflict between BRB and Codex, Codex takes precedence. If the BRB told you to read the left face, you couldn't then come in and claim that is "convention" to read the top face, so that's the way it has to be done despite the GW RAW telling you to read the left face.

 

The conflict comes when the BRB sets a models BS to 1 for Snap Shots and the player uses his Codex rule to set a models BS to 5. The error on GWs part is in the FAQ saying it goes in favor of the BRB rule. So I don't know what exactly the difficulty is, but clearly some still have difficulty with this.

 

The problem with your argument is a lack of foundation. You argue that "general < specific" even though no such order exists in the RAW. But which is "general" and which is "specific".

- Is the Signum more "general" because it offers a global BS of 5 to one models shooting, while the Snap Shot rule is more "specific" to a particular sub-set of shooting (I believe you would says yes to this, but you have no RAW to back up any of it)

- Is the Signum more "specific" to a particular model interaction and the Snap Shot rule more "general" because it affects all models making Snap Shots (that's the problem with specific/general, how to evaluate such and come to agreement)

- does specific/general mean that a rule has to call out all rules it is "specifically" overriding (in which case, fully 75% of the special rules in any codex are broken/inoperative (anyone care to come up with three examples were a rule does not specifically call out rules it must override to work correctly?))

 

However, it's all moot. GW gave us BRB basic < BRB advanced < Codex. Snap Shot is a BRB basic rule, while Signum is a Codex rule. When firing Snap Shots, a models BS "counts as" 1. What does that mean? GW fails to define the turn. So many see this as a BS 'set value' for the purposes of Snap Shots. But just because it is limited to a specific subset of shooting changes nothing - as there is no RAW for general<specific but there is BRB<Codex.

 

If GW wanted Snap Shots to hit on 6s regardless of a models BS, they should have written that way (a flat to-hit target without using the BS mechanic) or at least included the statement "regardless of the models current BS value" (to denote a flat BS value being used, independent of the models actual characteristic). The first version would then require that marker lights modify the dice roll (a la Techmarine/Servator repair rolls), while the second would work most like how you want it to work (although any BS modifying (+, -, X, /) rules would then work) but at least Signum/VoE would not.

 

But as has become very clear over these last few months, GW took an awesome concept and mashed it into the most diseased, misconstructed set of rules yet.

[dswanick]

Well, new FAQ is up:

"Q: Can the BS1 of a Snap Shot ever be modified by special rules that

modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack (such as Space Marine

Signums or Sergeant Telion’s Voice of Experience)? (p13)

A: No."

They removed Markerlights from the list.

But they left in the universal "ever be modified by special rules that modify the BS of a model’s Shooting attack", thus the problem remains (unless you wat to argue that the list of examples is exhaustive).

[Gentlemanloser]

But at least it's a step in the right direction.

 

But yet *again* GW fail.

 

The entire answer has to be rewritten, to make Markerlights work.  Not just excluding them from an non exhausive list of examples.

 

Edit:

 

Back to my original question.

 

As Markerlights are an 'Addition', and the UPS is a 'Set', then Markerlights can't help increase the BS1 of units that are effected by a UPS.

 

I might have to start using them just to troll Tau. :P