Return to the rhino rush

[Demoulius]

Hey all :)

Some might still renember me, im back after a hobby hiatus (well tbh I havent been absent from the hobby THAT long, but its kinda funny to say ) and after a few months of beeing tied up with various unpleasant things I wont go into (nothing hobby related) im aching again to do some hobbying and gaming :) for the ones who dont like to read, il ask a question at the end of the post what basicly is what I need help with...

What hit me with the new edition rulesbook is that ALOT of the games are purely objective based. Generally speaking my gaming group ignores the relic game and avoids kill point games like the plague as well so the few games that we DO play are generally all fought around objectives

Now mind I generally try to make as generic lists as possible and have a little bit of everything (most assault marines for troops though ) but in these games I find that to be a major hinderance. First of all other armies got better dedicated assault troops then marines have and having an assault squad (max range 12 inch weapons) sitting on their backsides to hold an objective is counterproductive...to say the least. Now then, how can I fix that? Well, either scouts or tactical squads with 1 or 2 assault units to fill the gaps then. Very different from what ive run for a while but no major change really.

What both squads have a problem with however is mobility... Now I can drop pod things from orbit (have terrible experience with that), let them entire army footslog (have even more terrible experience with that) or give them rhinos. Land raiders are to pricey for the games I play (generally 1500)

As far as I can tell one cant disembark from a transport and assault you have an assault ramp and dident move over 6 inch?) so that
is basicly out of the question anyway. I want to use several squads to drive up to my enemy, disembark and let it rip with bolters and plasma and then assault him/her the turn after.

So then, what is the best way to rhino rush these days?

Assault squad, *insert power weapon here*, 2 plasmaguns, combi-weapon, rhino?

Tactical squad, plasmagun, *insert power weapon here*, combi-weapon, rhino?

OR should I take several smaller ones of these:

Assault squad, razorback with anti-tank weapon, melta/plasma, powersword. Have 1 or 2 drive along with that with a priest in there, keep close so they all benefit from FnP when they disembark

Thoughts?

[Xenith]

Tactical squads waste the bolters range if you want to get in and assault. Assalt squads have weaker firepower when getting out. Id probaby go for a 1:1 mix, 10 asm/2 melta, 9 tac marines, special, combi, priest.

 

Or swap the 9 tacs for 10, razor, heavy weapons, special, combi, priest. The razor, special and combi drive upfield, leaving the heavy behind for home base scoring.

 

The BA's advantage in this is that they have easy access to FNP power armour bodies, and fast vehicles. Flood your opponent's deployment zone with this.

I'd also advocate a drop pod with a tac squad in it for a little T1 pressure.

 

You'd also need something to get troops out of transports (although there are fewer of these around now) and pop high AV tanks.

 

2x2 attack bikes should be able to keep up.

 

So:

 

~220 10 tactical marines, melta, multimelta, combimelta drop pod

~255? 10 tacticals, lascannon, plasma gun, any combi, power something razor  - TLAC/LCPG

~250 10 assault marines, 2melta, power something,  rhino, extra storm bolter

~65 Priest, power weapon

100 2MMattack bikes

100 2MMattack bikes

 

Just over 1000pts - ish, and room to add some more things to taste, preferably something harder hitting in CC than an assault squad.

 

Bear in mid, you're looking at a T3 assault at the earliest - T1, rocket up the table, T2, disembark and shoot, T3, assault. 

 

It may not be the most efficient use of turns...

 

Potentially look at a small squad of DC with bolters in a razor, they add to the firepower, and dish out enough attacks for 2 assault marines.

[skyst]

Unfortunately, the inability to assault out of a Rhino makes the idea kind of fail. Personally, I find the ruling absurd in a game that often ends after 5-6 turns, having to spend so long just to attack out of a transport, but that's a whole other thread.

 

I could see it working with proper support or diversion, a DP DC or Fragioso could draw fire away from the Rhinos or recently disembarked troops.

 

I think if I were making the list, it would feature a mix of Rhinos and Razorbacks with Assault Marines within for the discounted transports. Perhaps more Rhinos than RB to get more troops in. The main point would likely be weight of bolter fire supported by special weapons and RB turrets. However, without significantly deviating from the lists intent, your disembarking troops would get womped.

 

Maybe run it like a full on mech list with AV13 threats but with an extra full Rhino or 2 in place of an extra Pred n' Dred?

[Kem]

rhino rush is not for BA, tacticals and rhinos ATM are overprised.

GK/SW/DA do it better.

 

just compare price tag of DA and BA tacticals and rhinos. (all have access to FNP.., DA also has stabborn and plasmabuff....)

 

Sadly, but BA troops is all about assault marines, and rhino got lolnerfed in 6th. 

So it is JP or RBs.

 

3+ got lolflamed but Helldrake..

RBs is quaranteed firts blood to your opponent.

 

TACs may have some tabletop time, but they do need a droppod list.

[CrimsonMajick]

I would suggest Drop Pod Rush instead, with maybe some assault squads moving up in razors to remove high T or AV threats.

[Paulochromis]

raven rush?

[Demoulius]

Why all the gloomy responses brothers? Other armies always had other things we had. Dark Angels have a newer codex so the point costs will probably be shared with us when (or rather if) we get a new one. Space pups have grey hunters and grey knights have....grey knights.

Also please note that I KNOW I cant charge after disembarking, sadly we cant change anything about that. (using land raiders and SR's aside) General consensus seems to fall for the razorbacks. Im highly against 5 man squads however as the few times that ive used them ive seen them evaporate in single turns of shooting... Also their shooting phases/assaults are generally not all that scary because their numbers are to small to take losses

So:

~220 10 tactical marines, melta, multimelta, combimelta drop pod

~255? 10 tacticals, lascannon, plasma gun, any combi, power something razor - TLAC/LCPG

~250 10 assault marines, 2melta, power something, rhino, extra storm bolter

~65 Priest, power weapon

100 2MMattack bikes

100 2MMattack bikes

That sounds pretty nice :) Tactical drop pod squad is a huge threat but it kinda only leaves me with only 2 rhinos the droppod unit is kind of a oddity though. I planned to support the list with a Baal and Vindi. Would making the pod unit into a tactical squad with ML/PC for objective holding and PG and combi-plasma split up in either a razorback/rhino a good alternative?

Fact that I have rhinos and razorbacks and no droppods has nothing to do with the matter

[Midnightmare]

I had a couple of cheap pods from fleabay, bonus is they were already built - I hate building pods lol

[Xenith]

I planned to support the list with a Baal and Vindi. Would making the pod unit into a tactical squad with ML/PC for objective holding and PG and combi-plasma split up in either a razorback/rhino a good alternative?

Fact that I have rhinos and razorbacks and no droppods has nothing to do with the matter

Watch it with the Vindi, you're putting a lot of marines within 12" of the enemy and not in combat, a bad scatter would see you losse your own units. This type of list would synergise better with fast LC/AC predators, move 12" and fire both lascannons to pop transports and shave wounds off MC's.

Baal's are always a solid investment.

The drop pod was just to get as much 3+ in your opponents face asap. The list would probably be better with 3 rhinos with 10 tacticals in each, 1 squad melta/multimelta. maybe 1 las/plasmacannon (as you suggest) to leave at home in an emergency (you should deploy your objectives midfield...).

After 2 turns of Baal/Laspred softening up, 30 FNP/FC tactical marines in your opponent's face will be a problem for them. Protect the rhinos with the preds.

The large amount of armour would work well with Mephiston, and he provides some tough combat ability. You'll need some way of dealing with terminators, though, either through weight of fire, or plinking away at them with the attack bikes,

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

I've never tried it, but I don't see why tactical marines in rhinos would be so horrible. People complain a lot about the Helldrake, but doesn't having your troops inside rhinos greatly mitigate that threat? Given the apparent prevalence of Helldrakes wouldn't this, in and of itself, be a great benefit?

 

Coming from an Imperial Guard background, veterans inside chimeras charging down the field seems to work fine. Yes, they have more special weapons, but they're also way more fragile once their ride gets destroyed and not nearly so viable for grabbing/holding objectives. And the guys not armed with meltaguns have flashlights. And they aren't a whole lot cheaper (155 for vets w/ 3x melta in a chimera; 185 for 10 tacs with melta, combimelta, in a rhino or 190 for a plasma pistol instead of combi). With all the fast vehicles, and some Baals along for support, seems to me that Blood Angels could make very effective use to this tactic, getting into the enemy's face very quickly.

 

I think the trick would be to keep them cheap and therefore plentiful and mobile (no heavy weapons). Positing the 1000 points discussed above, you could cram 4 10-man tac squads with the loadout I suggested, with almost 400 points left over for supporting elements. Seems to me that 40 marines inside rhinos will be hard to kill, and there are 8 meltas between them so decent firepower which can all be fired without disembarking.

[Xenith]

I've never tried it, but I don't see why tactical marines in rhinos would be so horrible. People complain a lot about the Helldrake, but doesn't having your troops inside rhinos greatly mitigate that threat? Given the apparent prevalence of Helldrakes wouldn't this, in and of itself, be a great benefit?

 

The Helldrake can vector strike for D3 S7(?) hits in the movement phase, then place a S6AP3 flame template anywhere within 12" in the shooting phase.

 

And they aren't a whole lot cheaper (155 for vets w/ 3x melta in a chimera; 185 for 10 tacs with melta, combimelta, in a rhino or 190 for a plasma pistol instead of combi). With all the fast vehicles, and some Baals along for support, seems to me that Blood Angels could make very effective use to this tactic, getting into the enemy's face very quickly.

 

You forgot to include the price of the rhino in your comparison, which for BA is something like 50pts (I dont use them). 10 Tacs, melta, multimelta, combi melta, rhino is more like 235. Which is what you pay for 10 assault marines with 2 meltas and powerfist.

 

Tactical marines got a massive boost over ASM in this edition, purely because they have an effective aggro range of 30" (6" move, 24" shoot), while ASM only have 24" (12 move, 12 shoot) and if they kill too many in the shoot phase, they run the risk of missing out on combat.

 

I love tactical marines.

[Morticon]

Its possible to make it work.  Youd need to hit hard and fast.

 

At 1500 id be looking at this:

 

Libby - shield/rage (or Divination)

Corbulo 

 

8 DC - Axe,Fist 

Rhino 

10 Tac - PG, Cmbi Plas, Las

Rhino

 

10 Tac - MG, Fist, Las

Rhino

10 Tac - MG, Axe,MB, Las

 

Rhino

 

3 Attack bikes- 2mm

3 Attack bikes- 2mm

[Nicodemus Doloroso]

 

I've never tried it, but I don't see why tactical marines in rhinos would be so horrible. People complain a lot about the Helldrake, but doesn't having your troops inside rhinos greatly mitigate that threat? Given the apparent prevalence of Helldrakes wouldn't this, in and of itself, be a great benefit?

 

The Helldrake can vector strike for D3 S7(?) hits in the movement phase, then place a S6AP3 flame template anywhere within 12" in the shooting phase.

 

>And they aren't a whole lot cheaper (155 for vets w/ 3x melta in a chimera; 185 for 10 tacs with melta, combimelta, in a rhino or 190 for a plasma pistol instead of combi). With all the fast vehicles, and some Baals along for support, seems to me that Blood Angels could make very effective use to this tactic, getting into the enemy's face very quickly.

 

You forgot to include the price of the rhino in your comparison, which for BA is something like 50pts (I dont use them). 10 Tacs, melta, multimelta, combi melta, rhino is more like 235. Which is what you pay for 10 assault marines with 2 meltas and powerfist.

 

Tactical marines got a massive boost over ASM in this edition, purely because they have an effective aggro range of 30" (6" move, 24" shoot), while ASM only have 24" (12 move, 12 shoot) and if they kill too many in the shoot phase, they run the risk of missing out on combat.

 

I love tactical marines.

 

 

Oops. Good call. I was thinking that seemed a bit too good to be true. 50 pts for a rhino is just wrong when you consider a chimera is only 55. I forgot that BA rhinos are more since I haven't used one in any of my lists.

[Demoulius]

Cheers for the feedback guys :)

 

How would you guys think a 10 man assault squad with 2 plasmaguns would fare? After they disembark their 2 plasmaguns have more shots the single specialist weapon from the tac squad does (obviously) and the sargeants can be tooled up identicaly as a tactical vet can. On the shooting phase id have less bolter shots (but tbh those generally dont do much for me anyway) and on the assault they would have more attacks then a  tactical squad has. I think the discount they get for swapping their jumppacks in for a transport and the fact that they can have 2 special weapons warrants at least a few trials to see if the unit is viable ^_^

 

Also dident consider bolter DC actually :| they dont require a priest nearby...hmmm have to ponder this abit more.

[appiah4]

I think it'd work best with Assault Squad MSUs in Rhinos packing Plasmagun and Plasma Pistol.

 

Tacticals fail because Rhinos are kind of overpriced.

 

You can always use 3x 5 man sternguard in Rhinos, no upgrades, as shock troops.

 

Other than that, you're stuck.

 

You can always ally in Chimera Vets though..

[Demoulius]

How about this:

 

Librarian - SoS and SS

2 sanguinary priest

8 death company, rhino, bolters, PF and PA

10 tacticals, lascannon, flamer, PA, razorback with TLLC (one priest goes here)

10 tacticals, plasmagun, missle launcher, rhino

5 assault marines, meltagun, powersword, razorback with TLLC (one priest goes here)

Baal predator, heavy bolters

Vindicator, siege shield

MM attack bike

 

A 50/50 spread between rhinos and razorbacks. Hopefully between the boots on the ground and the vehicles il have a good balance between anti-infantry and anti-armour. Can you fire blast templates when you disembark from a vehicle? Would be nice if the missle launcher could fire if he disembarked :D

[The Milkman Of Baal]

Unfortunately you can’t snap shoot blast weapons. You can still fire the krak missile though.

[Xenith]

Plasmagun - disembark, rapid fire, you then cannot shoot them and assault. You get 2 shots.

 

Meltagun - disembark, get one shot. Next turn, shoot them and assault. you get 2 shots.

 

The plasma I only see as viable if you combat squad them and leave the 2xplasma dudes in the rhino, you then have a nice pillbox with 4plasma shots.

 

As with Morticon, Corbulo is very good in this list, put him out front to eat all the plasma directed your way.

[Demoulius]

@Xenith, the idea behind the plasmaguns was rapid firing with 2 of them sure I cant fire them when I want to charge but as most armies that I face would rather charge then be charged anyway the downside is pretty small.... Not that the armies I face are melee combat heavy or anything but thats just the mindset of my opponents. They rather charge me and deny me the charging bonus (even if beeing in combat is a poor place for them to be) then take their chances with shooting...

Also the plasmaguns work over 12 inches ^_^ But I do see your point :)

Sadly dont see a really viable way of freeing up points for corbs <_< and dont have the model ready either if I did.... Is he good for anything other then the 2+ FnP and single reroll though? I always wonder if his point costs is warranted by the buffs he gives out

[Brother Maikel]

Sadly dont see a really viable way of freeing up points for corbs and dont have the model ready either if I did.... Is he good for anything other then the 2+ FnP and single reroll though? I always wonder if his point costs is warranted by the buffs he gives out

If you can fit him and have a spot for a footslogging priest, he's totally worth it. In addition to his near-invulnerability to small-arms fire, he's a wonderful tank for plasma and baleflamer fire, he's the only priest with 2W, and he's a great tarpit for anyone without an AP3 or S8+ weapon (it'd be nice if he could have a power axe, but S5 Rending at I5 isn't too bad :) ) Toss in all the normal priestly benefits and the versatility of the reroll (worst case you can reroll a failed Armour or 2+ FnP roll and it acts as a 3rd wound) and he's definitely worth the points, IMO.

[Demoulius]

Well AP3 with <S8 still allows the 2+ FnP :D so I can see that he would be very resliant against that. S5 with rending on I5 is far from bad as well. Its the point cost that bugs me a little bit I guess. I generally use my priests for the FnP and FC bubble. If I even equip them with power weapons at all theyre going with a combat unit supported by a liby/chaplain.

 

I think il give the list a try sometime soon. Ive got all the models listed on it painted and everything (aside from the bolter DC, but I dont think thats so much of a problem :)) and il guess il find out if it works or not :) no plan survives contact with the enemy and such... Tbh ive got an image of how the rhino rush shoould (and did) work but I have no idea if its even remotly viable... il have to check and see...

[Morticon]

@Xenith,

Sadly dont see a really viable way of freeing up points for corbs and dont have the model ready either if I did.... Is he good for anything other then the 2+ FnP and single reroll though? I always wonder if his point costs is warranted by the buffs he gives out

Corbulo is, in my opinion, the best costed, most valuable and most useful unit available to us.

Next to Mephiston I think hes one of the units that i do not ever want to go into a competitive environment without.

Hes solid in combat, great with buffs, and tanks like a monster. The reroll is just the cherry on the top.

[Xenith]

I can see that he would be very resliant against that. S5 with rending on I5 is far from bad as well. Its the point cost that bugs me a little bit I guess.

Normal priests keep your guys alive by giving them 5+ FNP. Corbulo keeps them alive by throwing his own body into the line of fire. How much more badass do you need?

For keeping models alive, he is much, much better than a regular priest.

I usually get unlucky with LO,S! rolls from lascannons, so his reroll goes there.

I once had a downed Razorwing crash land onto Corbulo's squad, Corbs at the front. 10 hits on the unit. Corbs tanks them all. I like to think he caught the plane.

@Xenith, the idea behind the plasmaguns was rapid firing with 2 of them

Mind slip on the rapid fire. I love plasma, and am courting the idea of a 2xplasmagun combat squad myself. If you know your opponent will get the charge, may be interesting to try out!

[Demoulius]

Its specialy good to get rid off a monstrous creature or half a squad of terminators in 1 shooting volley played a while back in 4th where I was up against a nurgle deamon army. I zoomed up 2 rhinos, disembarked and rapid fired his deamon to death first turn heavy weapons dident get to fire back then and I think it was a 1000 points army but the idea worked fine with just 2 tactical squads. Im curious to see if I can still manage to pull that off with a mostly mech support army and perhaps 1 or 2 jump pack units following their lead ready to smite whatever survives the torrent of fire :)

That was the idea that I had anyway... I guess I gave the mech element a little to much emphasis with the list I posted earlier... Never the less it seems to have some more merit. Il give it a few games this week and come back to you guys to tell you how it works :)

[t4play]

Flesh Tearer Rhino Raid (1492pts)

 

+ HQ +

 

* Reclusiarch

Melta Bombs

* Power Armour

Bolt Pistol

 

 

+ Elites +

 

* Sanguinary Priests

* Sanguinary Priest

* Power Armour

Bolt Pistol, Melta Bombs, Power Weapon

 

 

+ Troops +

 

* Assault Squad

8x Assault Marines, Rhino

* Veteran Sergeant

Bolt Pistol, Power Weapon

 

 

* Death Company

5x Bolt Pistol, 4x Bolter, 5x Chainsword, 9x Death Company Marine, 4x Power Sword, Rhino

 

 

* Tactical Squad

Meltagun, Multi Melta, Rhino, 9x Tactical Marine

* Veteran Sergeant

Bolter, Chainsword

 

 

* Tactical Squad

Meltagun, Multi Melta, Rhino, 9x Tactical Marine

* Veteran Sergeant

Bolter, Chainsword

 

 

+ Fast Attack +

 

* Baal Predator

Flamestorm Cannon

 

 

* Baal Predator

Twin Linked Assault Cannon

 

 

* Baal Predator

Flamestorm Cannon

Not stealing your thread but I'm interested in the Rhino Rush idea too, was going to go drop pod but didnt like the odds of not arriving in time this is a list im currently building reclusiarch rides with DC Priest with Assault marines, I'm hoping the Baals will take the heat off the Rhino's

What do you think?

 

forgot to mention my son (who I play against) has Tau so he does not like the Baals or DC at all