Some fluffy questions

[LostAlone]

Some friends and I have been discussing playing through some bits of the great crusade and horus heresy through a combination of RPG and 40k so we can run through huge epic battles as well as politics and intrigue and all that good stuff. Anyway the idea is for the players (I'll probably GM it) to take on rolls as members of any of the rebelling legions, to forge a relationship under fire during the crusade, and then to figure out for themselves if they want to get all chaotic or if they escape Istvaan with Garro on the Eisenstein. Naturally through out none of them know what they others intend leading to much juicy role playing, paranoia and good times for all. 

 

Anyway, what I want to understand better is why exactly the individual members of the legions find worshiping chaos and massacring their comrades to be suddenly so attractive.  My theory runs that most of the marines don't really know that they are worshiping chaos at all. They all have their primarchs drives, and a personal loyalty to them, so they'll follow their primarchs as long as they aren't asking them to do anything that goes directly against the legions individual nature. However, understanding what that nature is and how the primarchs justified themselves to their legions is what really interests me. For the legions I think I have a handle on I'm just going to lay out how I see each legions motivations; let me know if I've missed important things, if im just wrong or if there are other interpretations:

 

The Word Bearers strongly believe that faith is a critical part of existence, and once rebuked for having faith in the Emperor as a god, they found gods that were worthy of their prayers. Ok, so that's the easy one. From their culture, and from Fulgrim's influence, they think that the universe is meaningless if there is no god to worship and the Chaos gods were the only ones hiring. They are also almost certainly the only legion where people outside of the upper echelons know that they are worshiping chaos. 

 

The Emperors Children are all about being better and better and better no matter where that leads them. They want to dabble with genetech and so forth. So the opportunity for all of them to indulge in that as much and as openly as they like would probably be very attractive to them. Knowing that they had been breaking the rules already also probably made it easier for them to cross the line when the time came. So their basic drive is in turning is personal freedom that they knew the emperor would never give them. Part of their doctrine is to experience everything to become better on the rationale that you can't beat something without losing/giving in to it. To them, any experience was worth having and that degenerated into sensation for the sake of it. 

 

The World Eaters swirling balls of rage and feel like they were being restrained and disapproved of for what they had been getting up to. As well as being rageful they have a different view of combat to most of their brothers in that they don't need a specific reason to fight other than to kill and win and the more challenging the opponent the better. So the chance to be let totally off the leash, as well as to fight against the toughest possible oppoents would appeal to them. Even before the Heresy they probably wouldn't have overly objected to fighting other marines; they revel in what they are, the blunt instrument of wrath. I don't think they directly worship chaos for a while though because they wouldn't be interested in magic particularly, it was only once the others started openly summoning deamons that they found a master who shared their values and who didn't really require anything of them other than keep doing what they had been doing. Once they were rebeling, they found that Khorne could make them better warriors and they figured why not.

 

The Thousand Sons wanted to continue their study of the warp and finding out weird and arcane things. To them, the chaos gods were a fact of life to be respected, but that they felt they could avoid the risks of by being clever. I don't think they ever really worship chaos, but they get to the point where it makes little odds if they were worshiping them or not. As far as the imperium was concerned any touch of chaos makes you dirty forever, but to them using magic was just another tool in their arsenal. They are all about curiosity and knowledge and chaos being a means to an ends in that regard. I don't think they'd have ever have thought of themselves as rebels. I think they would understand breaking the rules for the sake of a greater goal, and that's what they thought they were doing. 

 

So, thats fout that I think I understand, or at least have an idea of how characters from those legions would be thinking. As for the rest of them... Well I have rather less of a good idea. 

 

From what I know of the HH books, some legions follow Horus out of loyalty to him, but didn't want to actually follow chaos (or maybe wasn't aware of it?). I can understand that some of the primarchs would feel more loyalty to Horus than to the Emperor because of various degrees of jealousy and thinking that he no longer cared much about them what with hiding away on Terra for years. But it doesn't make sense to me that they and their legions would follow Horus blindly, and particularly to start massacring other legions and their brothers. They might swear support to Horus and march on Terra, not to wage a war but simply to demand changes from the Emperor. Especially since Horus can order anyone who might try to stop them out of the way, there's no obvious reason to just start killing people.

 

The Death Guard seem to have been fated to follow Nurgle no matter what (knowingly or not) because of the whole poisons and toxins stuff. The actual worship started to save their legion from destruction, but I don't really understand why they sided with Horus to begin with. 

 

The Iron Warriors perhaps wanted to do the same as the ECs, but with technology instead of genesplicing? They went nuts at some point and felt that they couldn't get forgiveness, but then theres a blank between that and joining in the drop site massacre. 

 

The Night Lords again seem to be destined for Chaos, what with Curze being... well.. mental. Much like the WEs, they were spreading terror and death for the sake of it and were being called back to answer for that, then they figured they may as well sign up with Horus because they were screwed either way?

 

The Lunar Wolves were obviously very loyal to Horus, and Horus himself was corrupted by Erebus putting him into communion with the dark gods while he was poorly. The rest of the legion was partially corrupted by the lodges teaching them to keep secrets and generally be bad people. But again, I kinda don't get why the vast majority of the legion didn't see any problems with their boss becoming really obviously evil, and particularly why no-one stepped up and murdered Erebus (aka the most obviously evil adviser ever). 

 

And then the Alpha Legion, who god only knows exactly which side they were really on.

 

So...

 

Am I right about the legions I think I have a handle on? And what about the other legions?

 

It seems odd to that only one or two guys even have misgivings about the whole 'Hey guys, we're going to betray everything we believe in' plan. I know the astartes were extremely tightly disciplined, and that they would tend to follow their primarchs leads because they had been molded in the primarchs images, but they still had rationality and individual thought. Obviously they traitor legions had some number of people in who probably wouldn't have followed through, but I don't think that they loyalists could have been that huge a number just as a matter of mathematics: Horus had seven legions he could count on (1k Sons are FAR away, and the Alpha Legion don't really count) up against nine loyalists. If they had killed 15% of their numbers on Istvaan III, that would be the equivalent of wiping out an entire legion of their own men. So I can't imagine the number of loyalists in the traitors was that significant, but then... well... the obvious ethical issues of the guys chilling out in orbit and just being fine with their friends being virus bombed. So how does this all work out ?

 

Thanks guys. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Caran Lyg]

This sounds like a really ambitious project, and I say kudos on the added roleplaying element. It should prove to be really rewarding. 

 

On to the question of Chaos worship, certainly in the beginning no one is saying "hey guys, I'm going to be late to training tonight I've got to worship some Chaos gods". Through the opening trilogy we see the Lodge system and its ritualistic overtones and are exposed to the idea of "Kaos" via the Interex but it's far from the idea of Chaos that comes about much later. There are varying levels of awareness of Warp entities with the Thousand Sons being both more aware of their existence while still semi-ignorant of their true nature, with the majority of the Traitors seemingly totally irreligious even up to the gates of Terra (I'm thinking Night Lords, Iron Warriors, and Alpha Legion for sure, varying levels on World Eaters and Death Guard). In the turn to Chaos, it was not a sudden thing but rather over time and by degrees. Certainly when a primarch accepted Chaos the legionaires followed suit (Fulgrim) but that was the culmination of years and years of process. Contact with the Word Bearers doesn't hurt either, especially Erebus, though that may be related to the warrior lodges. 

 

I kind of relates to the Chaos thing, but the same can be said of the whole "turning on the Emperor" thing. You totally nailed it when you mentioned the innate jealousies and prejudices between Legions, but it needs to be understood that these slights took time to fester into being enough to cause real betrayal. There was also the personal relationships between Horus and the other primarchs though I wouldn't get too caught up on that angle. It seems in every book that whatever primarch on hand and Horus are BFFs without compare, and we see extremes in this dynamic between Horus and Fulgrim (win for Chaos) and later between the former and Sanguinius (at which point Sanguinius flips him the bird). 

 

For my thoughts, I would say that the lodge culture and primarch emulation are potential gateways into Chaos Worship in concert with other events, such as a "Samus is here" moment, and the combination of brotherly rivalry, slights real and imagined, and personality clashes are the roads ultimately leading to Astartes fighting Astartes. 

[Durfast Spiritwolf]

There is still a significant lack of detail on the Death Guard, but their's is possibly one of the saddest tales.

Mortarion came to view the Emperor as a tyrant, which is similar in a way to Angron's view of him. He followed Horus through very strong bonds of friendship and trust.

In comparison the the 'flesh is weak' call of the Iron Hands, in the Death Guard, flesh is strengthened through the will and harsh experience. The will to endure and suffer in a great cause was perhaps their view of nobility. As you say, this left them open to Nurgle, but I don't believe it was inevitable.

Typhon's role in bringing the Legion to Nurgle is covered in two versions, the latest of which has him convince his sire to allow him to get them through the Warp to Terra. Angel Ex showed how even the most steadfast Primarch has the potential to be turned,but I am intrigued as to nuances of the role of desease in Mortarions fall.

[Aegnor]

Some good questions there brother!

 

I think the level of awareness of the Chaos side of things would vary from legion to legion and within that, from individual to individual. The Lodges would be key in this. I see a lot of their role being in gradually introducing heretical ideas and judging who can be brought further "in".

 

The cults of personality the primarchs had within their legions were pretty key I think. For the Emperor's Children and Death Guard, the sheer dizziness at being positively regarded by the primarch seems to have been pretty pivotal.

 

For the Iron Warriors, they all felt slighted and unappreciated over a long time frame. They were all therefore ready to listen to treachery. But well into the Heresy, they generally seemed largely unaware of Chaos compared to guys like the EC.

 

Alpha Legion all understood at an almost cellular level that horrifying means can justify ultimate ends and enjoy the challenge of treachery.

 

Night Lords hated the Imperium - they would not need any persuasion.

[A D-B]

Some good questions there brother!

 

I think the level of awareness of the Chaos side of things would vary from legion to legion and within that, from individual to individual. The Lodges would be key in this. I see a lot of their role being in gradually introducing heretical ideas and judging who can be brought further "in".

 

 

This sounds like a really ambitious project, and I say kudos on the added roleplaying element. It should prove to be really rewarding. 

 

On to the question of Chaos worship, certainly in the beginning no one is saying "hey guys, I'm going to be late to training tonight I've got to worship some Chaos gods". 

 

These are probably the most important aspects to bear in mind for the conversation, whether it's the Traitor Legions just starting out or the Chaos Marines of 40K on a Black Crusade. Actual direct worship (prayers, rituals, etc.) of the Chaos Gods is probably not day-to-day common among the Red Team, and it's one of the reasons the Word Bearers stand out. It's a classic mistake to assume the Chaos Marines spend their time worshipping (let alone understanding) the Dark Gods in traditional ways we might consider as religious or cultish observance. 

 

The Chaos Gods exist, no matter what the Chaos Marines do. While some will mutter prayers or dedicate sacrifices to the Ruinous Powers, a great many are just Marines changed by Chaos's touch, going about their own lives, ambitions, and priorities. They likely don't spend their time chanting and praying at all, or even have any particular affection for the Gods.

[Arachnid99]

Yeah I had always imagined that the 40k Word Bearers were more "Imperial" in spending lots of time praying and meditating etc. But I think it also depends on which Gods you're talking about, I mean it's pretty clear that the best way to worship Khorne is in the fighting pits knee deep in blood not on your knees in the Chapel. Similarly with Slaanesh the way to get S&M orgies seem the way to go. 

[Ratboy1664]

An interesting case study on this subject is Lucius of the Emperor's Children. Did he turn traitor to a) Save his own skin on Isstvan III, b) So he could stay with his Primarch who he adored, c) So he could kill Loken and get personal revenge or d) to get powers from the chaos Gods to become an even better swordsman. The answer is probably e) a bit of all of these factors because I don't think that one of the above reasons alone would be enough to renounce your entire life's existence for. It also makes for a much more interesting multidimentional character in an rpg.

[Aegnor]

I don't think d) was a reason for Lucius to turn traitor. I don't think it ever occurred to him that a god was making him better. The rest of the reasons are valid though.

[Caran Lyg]

I think sometimes we might overestimate the character (that may not be the right word, but work with me here) of the legionnaires. Sure, they have certain reduced capacity when it comes to "human" emotion, but I know in some HH book or another someone said of the primarchs that they weren't inhuman but rather humanity magnified, both the good and the bad, the valor and courage as well as the pride. I think this could go for the legionnaires too who are in many ways their primarch small writ.

 

One way of looking at the entirety of the story so far is not as an galactic war in the making, but as the tale of a family. The primarchs are all brothers who want to make their father happy (this may not be universally true, but run with it) and they are pitted against each other in the "family business", sometimes intentionally sometimes not, sometimes to positive effect and sometimes not, and while many of them do make bonds of brotherhood and camaraderie with each other, there are just as many small, petty slights that turn into big deals at the next reunion, just like real families. Point is, this is a story about how a divide forms in a family, the causes and consequences, and it just so happens to be framed in the largest conflict humanity has seen since the Age of Strife. 

[DarKnight]

I think sometimes we might overestimate the character (that may not be the right word, but work with me here) of the legionnaires. Sure, they have certain reduced capacity when it comes to "human" emotion, but I know in some HH book or another someone said of the primarchs that they weren't inhuman but rather humanity magnified, both the good and the bad, the valor and courage as well as the pride. I think this could go for the legionnaires too who are in many ways their primarch small writ.

 

One way of looking at the entirety of the story so far is not as an galactic war in the making, but as the tale of a family. The primarchs are all brothers who want to make their father happy (this may not be universally true, but run with it) and they are pitted against each other in the "family business", sometimes intentionally sometimes not, sometimes to positive effect and sometimes not, and while many of them do make bonds of brotherhood and camaraderie with each other, there are just as many small, petty slights that turn into big deals at the next reunion, just like real families. Point is, this is a story about how a divide forms in a family, the causes and consequences, and it just so happens to be framed in the largest conflict humanity has seen since the Age of Strife. 

The family aspect of the rebellion is probably my favorite personal touch, and also why I think rebellion would have been inevitable regardless of the influence of Chaos.