successful lists

[Nehekhare]

hm, has noone so far written an errata for 3.5 (or 4.0 SM) to work under 6th ed? I think it would be not too expansive but widely appreciated.

 

I'd take a minimally invasive approach and just add the new units. 

[Sception]

There's a lot in 3.5 that wouldn't really translate to 6e.  For instance, daemons are a separate book now, rhinos are no longer viable transports for assault units, etc.

[the jeske]

lords worked different . a DP was a lord given demonic stature . there were Lt lvl characters . there would be problems with how icons work and demonic possession [which doesnt even exist anymore]

[A D-B]

 

 

Prot you just insulted everyone who plays tournament and posts on any forum about w40k. You realy think that people that actualy play this game just for the game take their knowladge from what they read on the net ?

 

From my experience : Yes

 

Just look at the amount of identical power armies there are at tournaments, where a lot also look virtually the same except for the coloring of thier armour.

Also take a look at army list fora and mathhammer threads , where allmost all threads come down to the same army or list, which also prevails most at tournaments.

 

Same. About half of the players I know don't play in tournaments (in fact, only 2 do), yet still read codex reviews online, or sometimes check out unit discussion. There's a wealth of difference between reading up on tactics, and hardcore, uncompromising optimisation (often at the cost of background and theme). And then there're shades of grey all over the show, in-between. It's not a cut and dry thing as, sadly, many of these topics suggest.

 

 

 

Out of curiosity, what percentage of 40k players are actually tournament players?

 

There are grades of what a tournament is and isn't, but to GW, the "tournament scene" and tournament players are the minority of a niche of a minority. They're the loudest online, as in every fandom you'll get a vocal subsect that believes it speaks for the majority because all they see are their voices online, but ultimately, they're a drop in the ocean. Strangely, despite some folks being critical of GW and saying the company only caters to its rotation of new players every six months coming through the stores (and only their dollars mattering), many of those same people insist that the tournament scene is so vast, so mind-bogglingly vital, that GW acknowledges them as a major presence, and their "wisdom" drives sales.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure we've all seen a unit that never, ever sells. And I know we've all struggled to ever see several units on the battlefield. 

 

And yet, from every conversation I've had on the subject, from store managers to HQ folks - none of it secret or malicious - sales are essentially unaffected by tournaments and popular online lists, and the "scene" is essentially ignored because only a percentage of GW customers even play, let alone play regularly, and let alone play in competitive tournaments. Which is why, when GW say things like "We're a model-making company" and people scoff, maybe - just maybe - there's more to it than Captain Internet Poster thinking he knows everything. 

 

INB4 the jeske insists I'm wrong, and I should heed anecdotes over convincing discussion. 

[Nehekhare]

tournament players are the minority of a niche of a minority. They're the loudest online, as in every fandom you'll get a vocal subsect that believes it speaks for the majority because all they see are their voices online, but ultimately, they're a drop in the ocean.

 

all the more important to not confuse tournament players' minority interest with the interest all 40k players share with them: good rules. Because this is why it's actually good that the one minority who is most experienced witht his aspect of the game is also the most vocal about it ;)

 

as said before, thinking in such subdivisions serves noone but those who want to ignore.

[Deus de Mortalis]

Since when do balanced rules benefit only tournament players? I've never played in a real tournament. My local store used to run monthly 40k tournaments, but they were friendly tournaments between the locals. Most of my gaming was at scheduled times at the local gaming club or against my brother. But even in such a scenario, the imbalances within and between codexes rear their ugly head. So many times since 2001 when I started playing 40k I have read online about how some units were good, useless, overcosted, etc, and then later on seen it to be true in friendly games. Just because two people aren't throwing fluff out the window and powergaming doesn't mean crappy units are going to fare any better than they otherwise would.

[Deus de Mortalis]

tournament players are the minority of a niche of a minority. They're the loudest online, as in every fandom you'll get a vocal subsect that believes it speaks for the majority because all they see are their voices online, but ultimately, they're a drop in the ocean.

all the more important to not confuse tournament players' minority interest with the interest all 40k players share with them: good rules. Because this is why it's actually good that the one minority who is most experienced witht his aspect of the game is also the most vocal about it

as said before, thinking in such subdivisions serves noone but those who want to ignore.

Exactly, balanced rules serve everyone. All I keep hearing are the same two excuses for rules problems. GW doesn't care about the game, only about miniatures sales. Well don't they go hand in hand? Tournament players want good rules. Well, excuse me, but don't we all want good rules?

[Kol Saresk]

No one is saying that only tournament players would benefit from balanced rules. All that's been said is that the percentage that represents tournament players are the most vocal and not exactly the biggest, sort of like a chihuahua.

 

And actually they don't go hand in hand. How many people buy or illegally download the rules and then just buy minis from other companies to use? Quite a few. How many people just buy the GW miniatures and then never play the game? Quite a few. The sales of miniatures is not dependent on the sale of the game. GW could actually just stop producing the game and keep producing the minis and people would still buy them. That's sort of the point. The game is not the end all be all for GW. The models are and those can and will sell without the game. Don't believe? Go through the WIP. Look how many people make army after army and never play the game. Look at the Golden Daemon miniatures. I doubt those can be used in tournaments and if I put that much effort into making something like that, I sure as devil wouldn't risk it in even a casual game. That baby is going somewhere only the dust can touch it.

[Godhead]

By the same token, the game promotes model sales. The person spending the time to make that one beautiful model who never plays may not be buyimg and building multiple boxes of the same set of models because they dont play, or dont play competitively. I know many gamers who flip armies frequently.

 

It's a matter of perspective. A buddy of mine classified me as a gamer first and a hobbiest second. While that's fine and dandy, and true, I got into the game way back in the day due to my love of minitures. I find myself unhappy when said miniture I put so much care and detail into no longer has a place in my tabletop force because of bad rule design. I no longer want to convert and field a full force of beautiful models, I only need that one to convert and paint, therefore requiring me to buy less models overall.

 

Peoples experience with GWs products is a personal thing, I simply want a better experience with mine, and I don't think asking for better rules degrades or negatively affects someone else's experience with their models. Between me and my son, we have some level of every 40k army barring DE (and ive been tempted sooooo badly because they have awesome models)

[Nehekhare]

Kol_Saresk, on 05 May 2013 - 03:54, said:

No one is saying that only tournament players would benefit from balanced rules. All that's been said is that the percentage that represents tournament players are the most vocal and not exactly the biggest, sort of like a chihuahua.

so much condescension, only to justify the existance of your personal little niche in the hobby. Surely your group will be the one entitled to being vocal after those pesky others are gone? sad

p.s. you're absolutely missing the point - YOU, like each and every one of those fluffbunnies, BL authors, beer&pretzels-gamers, miniature painters and collectors BESIDES those tournament players benefits from good rules.

Kol_Saresk, on 05 May 2013 - 03:54, said:

GW could actually just stop producing the game and keep producing the minis and people would still buy them. That's sort of the point.

such BS! the point of developing rules was to sell miniatures in the first place - because without the game, those are just plastic toys noone has a use for.

all those golden daemon minis would never have been produced, bought or painted without the background of the 40k universe and the fascination of interacting with this fictional world on the basis of a communicative and entertaining game - on a game with rules that is. The community wouldn't exist if not for the game.

alltogether, I must say I'm pretty disappointed with some people's views here of this fictional group of "WAAC tournament players". Instead of being happy and thankful that there are people putting efford into the game and thus providing constructive feedback and communal playtesting above and beyond the narrow view of some guys in Nottingham bound by tight schedules and marketing considerations (not to forget an environment where all people are invited to have fun playing the game), they are used as some kind of scapegoat to poo-poo out people's insecurities. Instead of treating the experience and insight these guys accumulated by actual playing with the respect they deserve, they are ridiculed to justify not caring about the literal basis of the hobby we all enjoy and benefit from. What exactly have they done to you guys? Were you ever forbidden to play the way you like? If the unit you like doesn't work on the table, whose fault is that?

it's a damn shame, really...

[Shuggnuggath]

I'm sure if there was only the model range and fluff some clever person would make up a set of rules. Which might not be a bad idea.

 

Maybe tournament gamers could come up with their own 'living' ruleset.

 

Perhaps something as simple as a list of 'unit by unit' adjusted points costs to reflect their 'true value' in competitive play.

[the jeske]

many of those same people insist that the tournament scene is so vast,

so mind-bogglingly vital, that GW acknowledges them as a major presence,

and their "wisdom" drives sales.

Thing is tournaments is what gave the base for community growth. they were what advertised the game for people , specialy in areas where there were no GW shops . GW would be a mostly UK company if it wasnt for the 90s tournament sceen . Ah and oddly back then they did see us as an important part of the hobby. 

 

 

 

And actually they don't go hand in hand. How many people buy or

illegally download the rules and then just buy minis from other

companies to use? Quite a few.

ah see now your looking at it from a local perspective . That can only work in eras where people can play at homes or shops are ok with people runing non GW stuff in their games . In every area of the world where GW games are the dominant [and very offten only] table top games , no shop owner is going to accept people bringing stuff from non GW. I mean If I would look at the game like you I could say that close to 100% of people play tournaments , because all the players either have tournament armies and play at tournaments or have tournament armies and dont play tournaments yet[because for example they are not painted or the closest tournaments are too far away for them].

 

 

The models are and those can and will sell without the game. Don't

believe? Go through the WIP. Look how many people make army after army

and never play the game. Look at the Golden Daemon miniatures.

no game system that stoped going rules survive longer then a year. Why are the armies with better rules selling better. Why are models with butt ugly models[oblits just to name one] selling good? Would a vendetta/valk kit sell so well , if it was let say +200pts per one ? Would night scyths be bought en mass it they costed 150pts [like they should]?  If GW now decide that they are just going to make models and the rules can be made by the gaming community based on fluff , GW dex/army books from the past whole communities would die out. Ah WFB would be deader then dead. How many would buy 60-80 spear man or skeletons just to paint them and how much would a box of those dudes have to cost to pay for the cost of making those models ?

 

 

 

 

That baby is going somewhere only the dust can touch it.

you know that those are very offten sold just after wining and event . Same with the GD trophies and slayer swords ?

 

 

 

 

 

And yet, from every conversation I've had on the subject, from store

managers to HQ folks - none of it secret or malicious - sales are

essentially unaffected by tournaments and popular online lists, and the

"scene" is essentially ignored because only a percentage of GW customers

even play, let alone play regularly, and let alone play in competitive

tournaments. Which is why, when GW say things like "We're a model-making

company" and people scoff, maybe - just maybe - there's more to it than

Captain Internet Poster thinking he knows everything. 

 

INB4 the jeske insists I'm wrong, and I should heed anecdotes over convincing discussion.

 

Nice ad hominem . Well at least I wasnt called a dog and I wish I could have the rank of captin , I would get a higher pansion then .

But If you are right ,  if it is true that game efficiency has 0 influence on each model sold. then why did obliterators go through more molds then possessed in 4th ?

[Kol Saresk]

Kol_Saresk, on 05 May 2013 - 03:54, said:

No one is saying that only tournament players would benefit from balanced rules. All that's been said is that the percentage that represents tournament players are the most vocal and not exactly the biggest, sort of like a chihuahua.

so much condescension, only to justify the existance of your personal little niche in the hobby. Surely your group will be the one entitled to being vocal after those pesky others are gone? sad

Where exactly is the condecision?

p.s. you're absolutely missing the point - YOU, like each and every one of those fluffbunnies, BL authors, beer&pretzels-gamers, miniature painters and collectors BESIDES those tournament players benefits from good rules.

I only benefit if I actually play the game. Otherwise those rules are as useless to me as braille is on an iPad.

Kol_Saresk, on 05 May 2013 - 03:54, said:

GW could actually just stop producing the game and keep producing the minis and people would still buy them. That's sort of the point.

such BS! the point of developing rules was to sell miniatures in the first place - because without the game, those are just plastic toys noone has a use for.

all those golden daemon minis would never have been produced, bought or painted without the background of the 40k universe and the fascination of interacting with this fictional world on the basis of a communicative and entertaining game - on a game with rules that is. The community wouldn't exist if not for the game.

alltogether, I must say I'm pretty disappointed with some people's views here of this fictional group of "WAAC tournament players". Instead of being happy and thankful that there are people putting efford into the game and thus providing constructive feedback and communal playtesting above and beyond the narrow view of some guys in Nottingham bound by tight schedules and marketing considerations (not to forget an environment where all people are invited to have fun playing the game), they are used as some kind of scapegoat to poo-poo out people's insecurities. Instead of treating the experience and insight these guys accumulated by actual playing with the respect they deserve, they are ridiculed to justify not caring about the literal basis of the hobby we all enjoy and benefit from. What exactly have they done to you guys? Were you ever forbidden to play the way you like? If the unit you like doesn't work on the table, whose fault is that?

it's a damn shame, really...

And yet how many plastic toys sell without a game in mind? How many LEGO toys sell without a game? Or Star Wars Lightsabers? And yet they do. Some of The "little fluffbunnies" that you seem to be so condescending only found out that the game existed, by looking in the back of a BL book. Of course their advertisement isn't "Come play tournaments" or even "come play the game", its (verbatim)"Now YOU can be part of the story." So yeah, tournaments are really needed for the models to sell because that's the only avenue GW has. :P

Also, the last time "WAAC Tournament Players" was mentioned was when Deus asked me to clarify by tournament players I meant WAAC or the others and I said both. So I'm not sure where you see this persecution.

[Deus de Mortalis]

Straight from the horse's mouth:

 

The games are a key part of both our Hobby and our business model. Our
games are played between people present in a room (a Hobby centre, a
club, a school), not with a screen. They are truly social and build a
real sense of community and comradeship. This again makes good business
sense. The more fun and enjoyable we make our games, the more customers
we attract and retain, and the more miniatures our customers want to
buy. This in turn allows us to reinvest in making more and more exciting
miniatures and games, which creates a virtuous circle for all.

 

http://investor.games-workshop.com/our-business-model/

[A D-B]

tournament players are the minority of a niche of a minority. They're the loudest online, as in every fandom you'll get a vocal subsect that believes it speaks for the majority because all they see are their voices online, but ultimately, they're a drop in the ocean.

all the more important to not confuse tournament players' minority interest with the interest all 40k players share with them: good rules. Because this is why it's actually good that the one minority who is most experienced witht his aspect of the game is also the most vocal about it

as said before, thinking in such subdivisions serves noone but those who want to ignore.

Exactly, balanced rules serve everyone. All I keep hearing are the same two excuses for rules problems. GW doesn't care about the game, only about miniatures sales. Well don't they go hand in hand? Tournament players want good rules. Well, excuse me, but don't we all want good rules?

I'm not sure where you "keep hearing" this from, but seeing as I'm the one being quoted, it might be worth noting I never said anything of the kind. I was purely speaking about the mistaken 'clout' of the "tournament scene", which very often perceives itself as vast, and is absolutely teeny-tiny, for the reasons outlined above.

[Kol Saresk]

Whoa, hey now. Don't forget the before and after where all they talk about is being a manufacturing company that only produces miniatures, which is what A D-B said above.

 

The game helps to sell but it is far from the only avenue of advertisement and not everyone who buys a miniature actually plays the game. Just because they help each other out doesn't mean they are vital to each other.

[hornywingythingy]

Good rules sell miniatures, if they didn't Gw wouldn't still be having issues producing enough tau stuff to keep up, a month after the release (indys in the uk are still having issues getting tau kits in, my lgs has been told 1-2 weeks, its not the only one.)

[Xenith]

Good rules sell miniatures, if they didn't Gw wouldn't still be having issues producing enough tau stuff to keep up, a month after the release (indys in the uk are still having issues getting tau kits in, my lgs has been told 1-2 weeks, its not the only one.)

 

Also good miniatures sell miniatures. Tau were the mosty popular army after space marines for a while after they came out, and I think a lot of people had a tau army sat on a shelf, meaning a lot of people to buy the new models!

 

I would imagine Eldar will have the same effect when they are released.

[Nehekhare]

 

I only benefit if I actually play the game. Otherwise those rules are as useless to me as braille is on an iPad.

disturbingly short-sighted. you benefit from the game by this forum alone.

sure, sacrifice it to your argument. see how much is left of the little plastic toy soldiers without the game to make sense of them. where would your lightsabres be without the films?

btw,

 

The "little fluffbunnies" that you seem to be so condescending

if you quote me, quote me right - otherwise it appears that it wasn't you who isolated certain sub-groups to downplay their contribution in the first place ;)

 

that is what I really said:

 

YOU, like each and every one of those fluffbunnies, BL authors,
beer&pretzels-gamers, miniature painters and collectors BESIDES
those tournament players benefit from good rules.

feel dumb now?

[Kol Saresk]

So condescending to the little toy soldiers. And no, not really short sighted. There is the WIP forum and not everyone there plays the game despite painting and modelling those "little toy soldiers". There's always Greyall's drawings. There's the Horus Heresy subforum which existed before Forgeworld made the HH armies thanks to the blasphemous fluffbunnies who wrote the Horus Heresy series and inspired the Bells of Lost souls to write the Heresy era ruleset. Damn fluffbunnies, how dare they draw people to the game. And the lightsabers would still be where the books are since Episode IV was first published as a book before it was released as a movie. :D

 

Or, I could always go back to the BL forums where all everyone does is talk about the fluff and very rarely is the game even mentioned, usually to go "Hey, look what this guy made." in reference to an awesome miniature conversion. The reality is, I can and have found ways to indulge my inner "fluff bunny" and well as looking at things like Golden Daemon and even talk about miniatures without ever even having to hear mention of the "All important game."

But am I the one who is short sighted for realizing that 40k exists outside of the game, or is it you for thinking that the game is the end all be all to the 40k universe?

[Nehekhare]

yeah, indeed. how absurd to think warhammer 40k is the basis of everything warhammer 40k

you're just flaming now, kol. nobody here condescended on the other contributions besides gameplay like you did on tournament players.

[Kol Saresk]

One problem, I haven't condescended anyone. All I ever did at the beginning was say that maybe GW doesn't listen to the tournament community because(to GW) the tournament community wasn't that big. You're the one who started calling people fluff bunnies.

[Nehekhare]

One problem, I haven't condescended anyone. You're the one who started calling people fluff bunnies.

YOU,

like each and every one of those fluffbunnies, BL authors,

beer&pretzels-gamers, miniature painters and collectors BESIDES

those tournament players benefits from good rules.

obviously derogative

absolutely unlike

a chihuahua.

come on.

[Kol Saresk]

Did I call anyone a chihuaha? No. I used an analogy. To quote you, if you're going to quote me, quote me right.

 

No one is saying that only tournament players would benefit from balanced rules. All that's been said is that the percentage that represents tournament players are the most vocal and not exactly the biggest, sort of like a chihuahua.

Anyone who knows anything about chihuahuas knows that they are small, and very vocal. Would you prefer shi*tzu, cocker spaniel, jack russel terrier or maybe bottle rocket? All of these are smaller things that tend to make a lot of noise. I guess I could use "grenade" but that sounds tends to carry a bad connotation as being short lived and doing almost nothing good so I decided not to.

[hornywingythingy]

Nehekare, perhaps stop feeding the troll? He seems to be on a wind up, and has done that in the past, I know I'm ignoring his posts.

 

@xenith, I'm sure that helps, though some of the new tau bits are of dubious aesthetic appeal, the real proof will be if eldar have gorgeous models and stinky rules.