April 2013 FAQs

[Brother Maikel]

New FAQ's just dropped.

 

Nothing specifically for us, though our Drop Pods no longer lose hull points for entering play (you only lose a hull point if you suffer a glancing or penetrating hit, not if you suffer a damage result like Immobilized)

 

Also, while you can no longer use a tank or dread to fire an aegis gun, any model that does fire a gun emplacement is considered to be stationary for shooting.  So you can move up to one and still fire it at full BS, even without relentless.

 

I didn't see much else that particularly effects us, though DA got some pretty significant improvements via errata, so that might be interesting.  What do y'all think?

[Xenith]

The DA power field only working on the unit it is embarked with is good.

 

I've seen shenanigans with 2 land raiders crowded around a  central power field bearing land raider, which was silly.

 

Standard of devastation still works on hurricane bolters, though, which is kind of disgusting. 24 twin linked bolter shots from a crusader at 24" is wrong.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

The DA power field only working on the unit it is embarked with is good.

 

I've seen shenanigans with 2 land raiders crowded around a  central power field bearing land raider, which was silly.

 

Standard of devastation still works on hurricane bolters, though, which is kind of disgusting. 24 twin linked bolter shots from a crusader at 24" is wrong.

No, I think overall it is a sad day for our DA brethren. Many things which were propping them up were yanked from a codex struggling for viability. The Dakka-LRC is one of the few fine things left to them, and still doesn't make them competitive due to how many points they are paying for it.

[Brother Maikel]

Other than the power field/transport trick, what did they lose?  Everything else I saw seemed to either be a clarification or a boost.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Deathwing Assault now counts towards the limit of items you can hold in Reserve. Prior to FAQ you could potentially field an entirely Reserved Deep-Strike Terminator list. Moreover though the fact that Belial & a Unit he joins counts as 2 Units in Reserve just hurts for the rest of Reserving things, etcetc

 

Also, Split Fire got nerfed. You can no longer use CML to pop a transport and then use Stormbolters on the contents.

 

I guess my previous comment should have not been a blanket-statement towards the whole codex. Mostly just Deathwing took a hit, because Ravenwing actually got a bonus because Biker-Commands can grab two more models now, meaning a Banner is easier to protect... still overcosted Unit of course but I guess every little bit helps? 5 Black Knights (DWCS) with Banner of Devastation weighs in at 265pts now.

[tomjoad]

There isn't a whole lot they can errata/FAQ that would help the DAs in their own book, though. If DAs are to get better they would probably need to do one or both of reversing the heldrake 360 degree firing ruling or amending the flier book to allow DAs a better air force.

 

That Dark Angels just received a new codex that is already not viewed as particularly good, despite the fact that everything they did with it is what I would want them to do for the next BA codex, does not bode well for our future, by the way. I can't really think of any reasonable steps they could take to make a marine book much BETTER than the DA one.

[Captain Death Crunch]

Cheap troops, cheap librarians, and some cheap Heavy Support (Whirlwind, Devastators). Other than that, I don't think the DA codex has a whole lot to make them super competitive, especially with weak fliers. Which is a shame, because those Deathwing Knight models look awesome!

[CitadelArmyGuy]

tomjoad, on 23 Apr 2013 - 14:41, said:

I can't really think of any reasonable steps they could take to make a marine book much BETTER than the DA one.

Skyfire+Interceptor Whirlwind (with more than 1 shot-- at least 2 shots Str8 or 4 Shots Str7). That is what comes to mind. That or Skyfire Signums on Devs Sarges, etcetc. Or perhaps a Jetfighter that is actually good at Air Superiority? (what a disgrace to call the Nephilim a 'Jetfighter'). Basically a way to deal with Flyers, or ignore them.

 

The top two Armies from Adepticon just last weekend were vastly different builds, one SM+IG the other was Crons+GK. However, the common link between them was that they both ran exactly 3 multi-role Flyers and the ground Infantry was 'immune' to Heldrakes.

[Memento Of Prospero]

The common factor is that they are all 5th edition codexes. They are in the process of reigning in power creep that got out of hand at the end of 5th. Every codex that comes out for 6th will feel "weaker" until the playing field is leveled.

[CrimsonMajick]

Seems hard to believe that new codexes are weaker compared to 5th edition codexes. I think there is still some power creep going on.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Seems hard to believe that new codexes are weaker compared to 5th edition codexes. I think there is still some power creep going on.

 

There is no evidence of this. Chaos is only used as an ally for cheap troops, DA are nowhere near the top, deamons are just downright flaky. The Tau codex did not fix any of the base problems of the Tau army is scenario play : They still do not have a scoring unit that can hold an objective.

 

You can quote me on this, power creep is going backwards, and rightfully so. Grey Knights was the dumbest thing they ever came up with.

[I am Legion]

Now hold on a minute!

 

The dark angels got a superior codex in the fact that you have 3, that's right 3 full variations of armies that you can field. Once mixed together (the way the fluff describes it) they can pull off combos not seen before by marine armies. Taking away toughness (Ezekiel power) or knocking down WS and giving their terminators some bad ass weapons is not a downgrade. Ok ok the fighter isn't amazing but who cares? You got 3 Dev squads with skyfire MLs to deal with any flyer issue. You have a second turn terminator precision drop with the locator beacons on the ravenwing that brings a bunch of high toughness bikes and dirty toughness 5 terminators with a wide variety of weapons and weapon secondary powers to your opponents face!

 

I have to disagree with the people poo pooing this codex. In fact I see a glorious return to space marines and blood angels when it'll be our turn.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I have to disagree with the people poo pooing this codex. In fact I see a glorious return to space marines and blood angels when it'll be our turn.

IaL, you make some great points. And by no means is DA unplayable or even slouches in any means.

 

However, there is always that bugbear of Tournament Viability. And even then there is the discussion of Local Tourny's versus Grand Tournaments.

 

My fault is that Adepticon just happened and I've been digesting batreps, army lists, player perspectives and meta breakdowns for the last few days so my brain has been in hyper-competitive mode and I let that creep in to my assessment for the thread, heh.

 

The DA have a fine codex, just as BA do. However, neither good enough to make the top 16 placers via Adepticon. Only 10 Codicies Total (Nids/Crons/CSM/Eldar/DE/GK/CD/Orks/SM/IG) were represented in the Top 16, yet 9 Players had Necrons, 4 had CSM and 4 had GK. And in my opinion, there are 2 main major GTs that 'substitute' for the US lack of a National Championship: Nova Open and Adepticon. There are tons and tons and tons of other GTs in the US, but I personally feel those two are the biggest and most important.

 

If you are talking Grand Tournament viability, your list has to be able to defeat or ignore Scythes and Heldrakes. Notice how not even SW has love anymore? This is the meta as we know it.

[I am Legion]

Absolutely agree with your last point. The meta is changing. We are in a new edition, and we're being hammered with new codexes monthly or bi-monthly (finally :D). For the next year or so, alot of the old codexes will be redone. Let's face it, there's only like 15 armies out there (I think...). At which point, the tournament scene will change in a major way. In the last few tournaments I've been to, I see very similar lists, and at my local store, I hear about the same armies being played by bandwagoneers. This edition took away the cookie cutter beat all armies (or will in time) and brought it back to tons of playtesting before we know whats good. This is due to the inclusion of Allies. Because there are so many possible counters to everyone and everything. As far as I'm concered, the balancing is done wonderfully for this editions codexes. Yeah ok, you have the necron air show, which I agree is outright retarded, but that's an old codex. These things will be fixed. And yeah you have the heldrakes, but like a bunch of people said in another topic, stick your people in rhinos. Get your own flyers out there to deal with them, and worse case scenario, add DA as allies to get a tac squad with flak ML, and a dev squad with Flak MLs. And if your scared of them being cooked, then think of other ways to take them down.

 

Fact is, major tournament players are going to have a really hard time making a perfect army. Even I sit here and scratch my head as to which direction to go with my blood angels. And I am a dedicated player, and I sit with my friends and I go to the club and I surf....well, only this forum really, and my friends tell me what their armies forums say, but it's really hard to make a strong army unless you really start understanding, and I emphesize "understanding", exactly what every codex can do so that you can find the best allied compliment to your army.....

 

Just so you know, I'm honestly not arguing with anyone (I know it seems that way). But the Dark angels had a bit taken away from them this time with this errata, but perhaps next time it'll be the heldrakes turn.

[Ushtarador]

My hope is still that the new Tau will push back the helldrake/croissant-spam, and then we will finally see things like Ravenwing truly shine :)

[IK Viper]

The split fire FAQ did not seam needed to me, apparently it was.  I was under the impression that split fire, as with any shooting attack, has to be declared before any shots are rolled, so how do you "target" the contents when they are not on the field, nor are they in LOS when the shots from the squad are rolled.  

 

When I use POTMS on my Stormraven I declare where all my shots are going before I start rolling anything,  all shots happen at the same time regardless of weither of not they all go at the same target.  Sounds like some ppl think you can shoot the MM at a vehicle and then lay into the contents with H. Bolters, BS Missiles, ands Las Cannons

 

If split fire allowed you to fire one thing and then see how you do, THEN follow up with the rest of your shooting, then networked markerlights are pointless because their ability to benefit the unit that fired the markerlight could be duplicated by any Tau unit with a markerlight and a multi tracker.    

 

 

All shots from a squad happen at the same time, not one then the other. 

 

regardless, the FAQ removed all doubt.

 

CAG i agree that the reserve organization change took away one of the best things about deathwing.  I reserve alot of stuff in most lists I play and I would love to be able to null deploy and then DWA on turn 1 or 2 with eveything.  The ability to essentially deploy your army after seeing where your opponent is going even (even if you go first)  is great specially with slow moving units, ie terminators. 

 

Helldrake is unfixed...  do the game designers even play this game?

 

DA Greenwing / Ravenwing will not be competative so long as a 3 Helldrake list is viable in the meta, maybe Tau can help.  For now I think if I was a DA player I would run Deathwing and ally in some legitimate air cover (IG Vandetta squadron comes to mind)  to get 2+ armor troops choices that can stand up to the flames and flying las cannons that are atleast 40 points under costed per flyer to deliver anti-tank, anti-heavy inf., and most of all anti-flyer/flying monsterous creature.  Also probably need to mix in some SS's into each squad so that the new CD flying deamon prince lists don't come in and beat the crap out of them with high strength AP2 at like I 7.  killing half the squad before they get to swing back. 

 

IG could also add alot of backfield scoring to a Deathwing list and by splitting off into small squads you could probably get around the new reserves limit ruling on DWA. 

 

I don't play either army nor do I want to, but DA/IG for the win! lol  

[knife&fork]

Fact is, major tournament players are going to have a really hard time making a perfect army. Even I sit here and scratch my head as to which direction to go with my blood angels. And I am a dedicated player, and I sit with my friends and I go to the club and I surf....well, only this forum really, and my friends tell me what their armies forums say, but it's really hard to make a strong army unless you really start understanding, and I emphesize "understanding", exactly what every codex can do so that you can find the best allied compliment to your army.....

Not only that, you gotta know the local meta. Having the best netlist (not used as a derogatory term) doesn't matter if it isn't the one best suited to take advantage of the scenarios the tournament will use, the terrain, any house rules and of course the opposition.

My hope is still that the new Tau will push back the helldrake/croissant-spam, and then we will finally see things like Ravenwing truly shine

Even without the Heldrakes Ravenwing still suffer from being high priced 1W models with fairly short range.

[IK Viper]

Ravenwing by itself is very expensive and probably isn't a great take all commers list, but I think that sprinkled into a DA list they could be really good, sadly, right now they die to easily to cover ignoring, mid-high strength ap3 (Baal Flamers, Vector Strikes from Helldrakes and also the new CD FMC's, and Tau with mad markerlight skills) 

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Great point IK Viper, even if the Heldrake is fixed, high-quality low-model-count Armies are still going to have major trouble vis-a-vis Tau Markerlights. Not that low-model count Armies haven't always had an uphill battle anyway...

 

I've gotten a couple games in versus the new Tau now, and I've got to say I'm very impressed. Their ability to Ignore Cover in multiple different ways is a pretty big deal. I've still been beating them with BA through player experience imbalance (Tau in my area are newer players) and also because of a lack of Riptides which will soon be arriving to my meta. I feel like a really good Tau player would show me a helluva hard game. My hat is off to the codex writer, Tau codex is excellent without being imbalanced--- wonderful writing. If they can duplicate this feat with Eldar then I'll be pretty happy about the future of 40k.

[Morollan]

The DA have a fine codex, just as BA do. However, neither good enough to make the top 16 placers via Adepticon. Only 10 Codicies Total (Nids/Crons/CSM/Eldar/DE/GK/CD/Orks/SM/IG) were represented in the Top 16, yet 9 Players had Necrons, 4 had CSM and 4 had GK.

 

Interesting to note that, despite what the likes of Stelek might have us believe, IG allies are not the be all and end all of competitive play. Only a single IG detachment in the top 16 of Adepticon!

[Memento Of Prospero]

 

The DA have a fine codex, just as BA do. However, neither good enough to make the top 16 placers via Adepticon. Only 10 Codicies Total (Nids/Crons/CSM/Eldar/DE/GK/CD/Orks/SM/IG) were represented in the Top 16, yet 9 Players had Necrons, 4 had CSM and 4 had GK.

 

Interesting to note that, despite what the likes of Stelek might have us believe, IG allies are not the be all and end all of competitive play. Only a single IG detachment in the top 16 of Adepticon!

 

It's far worse than that. Flyers are the be all, end all.

[Ushtarador]

Well not flyers per se, but Helldrakes and Scythes. I love the DA and Tau flyers, they are cool and fill their role, but they will not carry your game. I really hope they get around to nerfing the crons/turkeys/vendettas sometime..

[tomjoad]

Unfortunately, there aren't enough data points to say that anything is the be-all-end-all, or even truly the "best," even if we aggregate every GT to happen in a year. The amount of randomness inherent in a d6, as well as high amount of other variables (player skill, army make-up, FW, missions, scoring system, paint/sports scores) make the results of a single tournament too close to meaningless for my tastes. Yes, we can say that fliers are good and that MEQs are not, and that seems close to verifiable, and it matches our preconceived notions, but with an n of, what, 8 matches at Adepticon?, what are we really learning?

 

Plus, even if we concede that MEQs are bad and fliers are very good, that means essentially nothing going forward, since Adepticon was played without Tau, who will clearly have in impact on how good fliers are, as well as on how good ADL/cover save reliant armies are. Is the Tau impact so great that fliers are now only average and MEQs are very good again? We can predict and theorize and hope, but without dozens of games there is little in the way of certainty to be had.

[CM_Seth]

The split fire FAQ did not seam needed to me, apparently it was.  I was under the impression that split fire, as with any shooting attack, has to be declared before any shots are rolled, so how do you "target" the contents when they are not on the field, nor are they in LOS when the shots from the squad are rolled. 

 

No, the Split Fire special rule was actually quite explicit about the split firing model's targets being both declared and resolved before the rest of the unit fires, much unlike Power of the Machine Spiriti, retro Target Locks, Long Fangs, or anything else of that nature.

 

That does make Networked Markerlights rather redundant, but I would have considered that more an error on the part of the Tau codex than the core rulebook.

 

I'm quite disappointed by the ruling because it makes the distinction more or less pedantic. If the order of events can't be used for any sort of tactical play and doesn't interact with the rules in any major conceivable way, why not just make it all simultaneous in the first place? I feel this ruling was unecessary as well, if only because I feel the FAQ writer and the original rulebook author might not have had the same intent.

 

---

 

Anyway, I'm not particularly overjoyed by these FAQs. The Daemons' Burning Chariot was completely ignored when it seems like a no-brainer fix. A Fast vehicle that can't even move and shoot? Dark Angels mostly saw smacks in the face, when I don't think they really deserved any of it.

 

As a frequent user of Dark Eldar Reavers, I will say I'm glad to see their Bladevanes get an answer. Discussing whether or not the attacks were coming from the front, behind, or randomly allocated was never fun, especially when my opponents and I inevitably agreed upon random allocation, which is just several minutes of hassle and brings game flow to a screeching halt. The fact wounds are taken from the back of the unit instead of the front, which is a good call following the precedent set by Chaos Screamers (kudos GW for remaining consistent), makes me excited to cause some mischief. So many people place their important things in the back of their units anymore...

[ianj253]

I know this isnt the DA forum, but don't RW stand a good chance of just ignoring heldrakes? If they have first turn they can be engaged in assault and thus protected from drakes by opponents turn 2. From there they can use their mobility and hit and run to avoid the drakes for the most part.