Astorath the Grim Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Ok now with the ability to take a 5 man command squad the rw cmd squad now is actually a viable thing to take...my question to you folk is this: Is it really worth it to upgrade to a champion? The blade of caliban being unwieldly I'm not sure that it is...any thoughts and or experience to give? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 With banners, I think the RW command squad should be the last one to see combat. a last resort if you wil. They should still be turbo-boosting around dark shrouds for sweet 2+ cover, and now they have more wounds to take. if you do get nto combat, maybe take the 5 point champion and have him gimp to some HQ before hit and running the Frak out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darkangeldentist Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Simple question you need to ask yourself first, what do you want out of the command squad? Black knights are awesome, probably the best addition to the chapter and the command squad versions are (per model) cheaper and with more options! After only a few games I came to the conclusion that the command squad was perfectly viable even when stuck at only three models. It just took more baby sitting to deliver and was horribly dependent on how lucky you were with armour saves. Bare bones they are great, simply because they are cheaper black knights and don't take up a slot. So as a supporting unit, even at only 3 strong they are a great little addition to slot in and support other elements of your army. Either as flankers scouting forwards or outflanking to gut part of the enemy back line. Plamsa being a bit better against armour in 6th if you can get a penetrating hit means there are few things they cannot threaten. Add in the apothecary and they get a small but appreciable bump in resilience and if you really want, almost any of the standards will make for a good investment so long as you position them well. Regarding the champion specifically. I have yet to try him due to the concerns highlighted, unwieldy is a massive blow to his survival chances against most foes and the +1 strength on a power sword is cute but uninspiring when your basic weapon gives the same strength bonus but with rending instead of that solid AP 3. On the other hand the champion is WS 5 so hits on 3's against a lot of foes and with the toughness has better odds in a challenge than other sergeant type models so isn't quite so different against 3+ saves than a power axe would be. Which for 5pts really is a bargain if you think about it. So I'm still on the bench about him. There was a thread a while ago that looked specifically at his value and would be worth looking up if you are interested in a full break down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RayJ Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 The Blade of Caliban comes in handy when Sammael or an IC is babysitting the squad, or when dealing with power armored guys. You get a decent number of attacks with the hammers, but they really only shine vs hordes and terminators. The main reason to use the Champ is for protecting your apothecary from challenges and gaining precision strikes/shots, but the weapon upgrade is definitely worthwhile for a 5-man unit. In a minimal squad, however, since you won't be taking an apothecary (or at least shouldn't be), it is less useful to upgrade to the Champ. When running with Sammael and/or other ICs, the Champ goes up in usefulness as the squad becomes quite versatile. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astorath the Grim Posted April 23, 2013 Author Share Posted April 23, 2013 My main opponent is tau, so the dark shroud is really pretty useless to me, as his markerlights make cover saves absolutely worthless. And the ap3 is nice for the few crisis suits that don't have irridium armor. Though I don't have to worry about power weapons taking me out in duels, the commanders can get a respectable amount of attacks at initiative higher then the blade of caliban allows. To me, one of the biggest selling points of the cmd squad IS the apothacary, adding fnp to this unit is a large boost imho...granted yes you can get it from a standard, but with him already in place you can add some other useful standard instead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Champion is a speed bump to save your Apothecary in a bad Assault phase Challenge. Until you can Hit and Run Away... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apahllo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 When the squad was only 3 models it was a huge risk to take any upgrades such as an apothecary or champion because they were easily categorized as squishy. Now with a 5 model cap it changes that idea completely, its the difference between being a squad you take for a banner to a unit you take because it useful in almost every aspect of war; shooting, assault, and support(grenades/banners). I think the extra models make almost every upgrade useful, including the blade of caliban. But the most important thing for their load out is their role in your army. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Plus with the champion, you could get precision shots :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apahllo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 ^With plasma talon and rad grenades= instant death vs regular t4 models!!, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Disruptor_fe404 Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 ^With plasma talon and rad grenades= instant death vs regular t4 models!!, Tell me more, since I've always played it such that they're resolved at the same time, so the plasma talons don't benefit from the rad grenades' -1 T. If you're going to go with 'order of operations on your turn, thus resolve rad grenades first', I can see where you're coming from, but I'm looking for more than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cielaq Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Well, rad/stasis grenades require a unit to be hit to get the penalty, so they take effect as soon as your dice will come with that hit. This way, when rolling to wound (which is, after all, after hitting), the effect of grenades is already in place, so the Toughness of the target is already reduced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 more grenade questions! let's say you have two in a 6 man black knight squad if one rad shot missed, can you change the 2nd grenade from a stasis to a rad grenade if you want? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cielaq Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 All the shooting from a unit is supposed to happen at the same time, so I would say no. You are effectively rolling to hit with both grenades at the same time, even if (for practical purposes) you roll one die after the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apahllo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 ^With plasma talon and rad grenades= instant death vs regular t4 models!!, Tell me more, since I've always played it such that they're resolved at the same time, so the plasma talons don't benefit from the rad grenades' -1 T. If you're going to go with 'order of operations on your turn, thus resolve rad grenades first', I can see where you're coming from, but I'm looking for more than that. as cielaq pointed out, the -1 toughness is only if the grenade hit so I'm assuming it means the grenade and the talon both wounds against the modified toughness Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Interrogator Stobz Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 Plus with the champion, you could get precision shots THIS^^^ It has been discussed at length in another thread that for 5 points you get a character that could get to choose who he shoots; Totally worth 5 points if they are spare. Anything to do with the Blade of Cabbage is really neither here nor there; but he can be a sacrifice to enable hit and run to be used to it's full extent as mentioned above. RWCS are now the boss, no FA FoC used either It seems that along with the DW Sgt FAQ nerf, GGGGeeee DDDDub wants our squad leaders to have no real chance in CC. Maybe that's our new thing? "What DA FAQ???" stobz Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apahllo Posted April 23, 2013 Share Posted April 23, 2013 ^no more hammernater srgs... This is weird, no more all cc deathwing... I would think srg should have the same access as the rest of the squad, like company vets the only difference should be that he has the character special rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Isiah Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 The DW sarge sword-only is already being picked over extensively in the new FAQ (April) topic - let's leave it there rather than here in a RW CS topic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 All the shooting from a unit is supposed to happen at the same time, so I would say no. You are effectively rolling to hit with both grenades at the same time, even if (for practical purposes) you roll one die after the other. Arrrrrg. So to be safe, I would probably have to shoot one of each. X-X usually when the black knights shoot, one shot completely misses and the other hits directly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apahllo Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 With the command squad you only get 1 grenade launcher :/ So with command squads now being significantly cheaper than black knights is anyone considering taking more than 1 standard? The RW company standard looks like a second banner to have in tandem with the devistation and fortitude. Auto passing hit and run while shooting talons and 4 shot TL bolters seems like a great way to quickly bring down multiple units. Dark talons complete this combo for me, with the stasis bomb, blind cannon and the can get close to the dakka pole for increased devistation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiger9gamer Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Actually, the difference between the base cost of the Black knights and of the RW command squad is 2 points per model. 40pts for the command squad bike and 42 for the regular squad. Not that significant, actually. Plus the command squad is more if you add in the banners. I think the main difference is that the command squad should be the main buffers, while if you want more numbers/more debuff support, you take black knights for more people and nade launchers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Ok now with the ability to take a 5 man command squad the rw cmd squad now is actually a viable thing to take...my question to you folk is this: Is it really worth it to upgrade to a champion? The blade of caliban being unwieldly I'm not sure that it is...any thoughts and or experience to give? Yes, it is worth the 5 points, and the reason why is that it urns the Black Knight into a *character*, meaning he gets Precision Shots with his Plasma Talon. Even if everything else is of debatable worth, the Preicsion Shots ability is totally worth 5 points. You know what happens to an enemy character who gets rad grenaded and then Precision Shot with a Plasma Talon? The usually Toughness 4 enemy character, now Toughness 3 from the stasis effect, becomes subject to Instant Death. That's kinda...um...useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Immolator Posted April 24, 2013 Share Posted April 24, 2013 Ok now with the ability to take a 5 man command squad the rw cmd squad now is actually a viable thing to take...my question to you folk is this: Is it really worth it to upgrade to a champion? The blade of caliban being unwieldly I'm not sure that it is...any thoughts and or experience to give? Yes, it is worth the 5 points, and the reason why is that it urns the Black Knight into a *character*, meaning he gets Precision Shots with his Plasma Talon. Even if everything else is of debatable worth, the Preicsion Shots ability is totally worth 5 points. You know what happens to an enemy character who gets stasis grenaded and then Precision Shot with a Plasma Talon? The usually Toughness 4 enemy character, now Toughness 3 from the stasis effect, becomes subject to Instant Death. That's kinda...um...useful. You can emulate that to an extent with a power maul as well, just saying :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Astorath the Grim Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 Ok now with the ability to take a 5 man command squad the rw cmd squad now is actually a viable thing to take...my question to you folk is this: Is it really worth it to upgrade to a champion? The blade of caliban being unwieldly I'm not sure that it is...any thoughts and or experience to give? Yes, it is worth the 5 points, and the reason why is that it urns the Black Knight into a *character*, meaning he gets Precision Shots with his Plasma Talon. Even if everything else is of debatable worth, the Preicsion Shots ability is totally worth 5 points. You know what happens to an enemy character who gets stasis grenaded and then Precision Shot with a Plasma Talon? The usually Toughness 4 enemy character, now Toughness 3 from the stasis effect, becomes subject to Instant Death. That's kinda...um...useful. Actually I do believe its the rad grenade that lowers toughness by one. But I do see your point :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shabbadoo Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 You can emulate that to an extent with a power maul as well, just saying. You would have a point if any Ravenwing Command Squad model actually could take a power maul. And yes, I mean rad grenades, not stasis grenades. the 5 points is worth it just for Precision shots/hits. I also want to say that this is not a point i thought up, but one somebody else thought up in another thread debating the value of the Champion upgrade. It is good point to be sure, and makes the Champion upgrade much better for Ravenwing Command Squads than it is for Greenwing Command Squads, at least considering cost versus effect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 You know what happens to an enemy character who gets rad grenaded and then Precision Shot with a Plasma Talon? Yeah I know... He transfers this wound on a fellow on 2+... And even if it fails he has a 4++inv save in 90% of the cases Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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