How viable are DA Assault Squads?

[Mystech1]

Been a few months since I've been able to enjoy 40k, but I'm making another attempt. Still upset I didn't get to complete my path to redemption.

Anyway, I'm gearing up for a tournament in a few months and have been considering taking an Assault Squad. I've been told they're not so good, but as my informer is a Chaos player, I'd like a second opinion. Being a BT at heart, CC runs in my blood and I'm really pushing to include them. Current squad is 10 strong with Plasma Pistol and Flamer. Vet Sgt loadout to be determined (he's the only model not built), but that's a different thread. I've read about 2x flamer squads, but like balance and don't want to remodel them.

So,

1. Is a 10 man DA Assault Squad good enough to include in a 2k point army?

2. Is PP + Flamer an ok loadout, or do I really have to rip the arms off my PP model and give him a flamer?

3. Aside from Quzotaolhoweveryouspellititsdumb, what's a good name for a winged serpent? If it's good this squad needs a name.

Thanks for any tips, insight and advice you have to offer.

[Cod]

Ok, well I have 2 assault squads Im working on putting together, as part of a battle company. Was going for 2 flamers with sgt p sword and in one unit and 2 p pistols with sgt p fist in the other. Your 10 men unit should still do ok with a pp and flamer. That means they have a lil more kick in cc.

What is the goal of your unit? Will they be your only FA unit?

You know there are probably more cost efficient units in the FA slot, but is it a fluff reason you're taking them for a tournament?

In the end, you already have the figures, so dont get worried or put down by others saying they're not so good, do want you think is right, use them anyway, trial and error is best, they may surprise you

Oh, and 'THE OPHIES PTERETOI' were a breed of feathery-winged Serpents which guarded the frankincense groves of Arabia. They were sometimes called Ophies for short!

[Chaplain Lucifer]

In a truly competitive environment, probably the assault squad has no place. They cost too much for their damage output and for their fragility in the battlefield. That said you can make them work only you have to try harder.

I feel the PP and flamer loadout is jack  of all trades, master of none. Not only the PP is expensive, but it's also dangerous and might lead you to do something the whole squad is not designed for.. I would just put an extra flamer, to double their output against infantry.

As for the name ... Jormungandr would be nice.. it's not winged but it's  abig big serpent. 

[shabbadoo]

Jormungandr is kind of Space Wolfy though.  I would arm the unit with dual flamers and give the vet. sgt. a combi-flamer, and either a power fist or a power weapon and meltabombs.  This load out is heavily geared towards anit-infantry use versus 3+ and worse armor types.  Not a bad unit for a bit over 200 points.  Two such units work better than one, as then they can tag team and do some real damage; even more so if accompanied by HQs.

[Ozybonza]

While I think 2 x flamer dudes in a drop pod has some merit, jump pack guys aren't great for DA.

 

That said, remember that you can take 2 x plasma pistol or flamer no matter how many guys in the squad, so taking your 10 models as 2 x 5 man squadsm each with 2 x plasma pistol or 2 x flamer (don't mix them) could have some merit as a mobile threat.  Combi weapons on the sergeants coul help too.

[twopounder]

Our assault squads are better than vanilla (cheaper and have grim resolve). They obviously aren't our power units, but they're good screeners for devastator squads. A squad of 10 with 2x flamer, combi-flamer, and power maul is pretty good crowd control. The downside is that you'll lose the sgts bonus attack and he can't fire before assaulting. But hey, you get 1 free shot at 24" after moving!

[Frater Cornelius]

Thing is, there's little little to be had from AS. While they make potential point sinks, they lack some special bling like BA assaults.

DA are a dakka army and are thus limited in truly viable melee choices outside of termiantor(knights) and maybe bikers. Note that all of units (bar termie knights) bring a lot of dakka to support the central theme.

 

Having said that, unless you are about to fight a grand tournament, I say go for it. It is certainly a change of pace and they are fun to play. They have a cost advantage to vanilla IIRC.

 

Ultimately, it is not that they are bad. It's just that most other units are better.

[RayJ]

DA Assault Squads are best used for backfield disruption for scoring units hiding in cover. You take a 5-man squad in a drop-pod with 2 flamers and 1 combi-flamer. Drop out and kill off some dudes. If you're still alive next turn, assault in and tie up the shooting units. For 105 points, that unit is a bargain for what it does (and is scoring in the Scouring).

 

You don't always need such a unit, but it is a great option to have in your toolbox.

[Tamwulf]

DA Assault Squads are best used for backfield disruption for scoring units hiding in cover. You take a 5-man squad in a drop-pod with 2 flamers and 1 combi-flamer. Drop out and kill off some dudes. If you're still alive next turn, assault in and tie up the shooting units. For 105 points, that unit is a bargain for what it does (and is scoring in the Scouring).

 

You don't always need such a unit, but it is a great option to have in your toolbox.

 

This. I have yet to see any other reason for an Assault Squad in a DA force. Even in the above, a Whirlwind is 1/2 the price, starts on the board, and can be parked in your back field doing the same thing from turn 1. Need speed? Take Ravenwing. More resiliency, faster. Need melee? Deathwing. In true Space Marine fashion, the Assault Squad is a jack of all trades and master of none. 

[Syphid]

They are a tarpit unit, good for disrupting an enemy advance and protecting your more fragile units from unwanted assaults.  They won't be winning you any battles single handedly, but they help ensure other units get their jobs done.

[march10k]

A ten man squad is 80 points cheaper than under the old codex...that's excellent.  The ability to take a flamer for 5 points instead of a PP for 15, also amazing.  I think they're absolutely a viable choice! 

 

Ten assault marines with two flamers: 180 points.

 

Ten tactical marines with plas/plas: 170 points.

 

Given their melee output and mobility...assault marines are no less viable than tactical squads.  Those who say otherwise still have "25PPM base" stuck in their heads.  17PPM for a jump pack and two attacks in melee is easily as fair as 14PPM for no jump pack and a boltgun.

[Brother Immolator]

Those who say otherwise might also have realised that assault marines are not and neither have been a dedicated assault unit, but rather a side option to burn some points and hopefully do something.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

A ten man squad is 80 points cheaper than under the old codex...that's excellent.  The ability to take a flamer for 5 points instead of a PP for 15, also amazing.  I think they're absolutely a viable choice! 

 

Ten assault marines with two flamers: 180 points.

 

Ten tactical marines with plas/plas: 170 points.

 

Given their melee output and mobility...assault marines are no less viable than tactical squads.  Those who say otherwise still have "25PPM base" stuck in their heads.  17PPM for a jump pack and two attacks in melee is easily as fair as 14PPM for no jump pack and a boltgun.

I have to somewhat  disagree. Tactical marines are scoring and even  if they stay still they can influence the game around them specially with a SoD. A jump pack assault squad is fine but it's not's scary enough to act as an assault deterrent against most armies and does practically nothing while waiting in a guardian mode role... in a more offensive role they aren't shining in CC and it's difficult to use them correctly.

I think that with jump packs and 3 flame templates they have merit to be used, the problem is than in a competitive environment you either need their points elsewhere or the slot they occupy. In any case they can be made to work, no doubts about it. 

I think they have their nice in a Land Raider heavy army because they can hide behind and keep pace, allowing them to reach the enemy unblemished.. specially if there's a bikemounted /jump pack, PFG toting character there

[march10k]

Ooh, now there's an idea...a jump chappy with a PFG...give them a 4++ during the approach, and then, assuming that the enemy consists of marines, the 3+ save is better anyway, so the 4++ that both end up with is generally not a factor...bonus that the crozius and PFG are excellent companions, since the PFG doesn't nerf the crozius against power armor.

 

Anyway, in general...Assuming that both sides have a power sword, axe, or fist, and neither side challenges (since the winner of the challenge is impossible to predict, let's set that aside to make results more predictable), an assault squad will sodomize a tactical squad in melee.  Sure, they're not banshees, but they're more than capable.  Potentially 49 S4 attacks on the charge (base, pistol, additional ccw, charge, hammer, but -2 for two flamers, possibly replaced with flamer hits), of which four are AP3, is nothing to sneeze at, especially when the enemy responds with...what, snap fire for three hits, plus 11 attacks, of which 2 are AP3.  That's 6 dead tactical marines versus two dead jumpers (1.5 of which comes from the enemy sergeant!).  Add that melee overmatch to their mobility, and they do, in fact, have a place.  And if the enemy shoots at them, they're only 3 PPM more than the scoring tactical squad, so they make an excellent matador's cape!

 

Anyway, none of that matters, lol.  I only field them in casual lists, for the fun of it.  In competitive settings, it's deathwing for me.  If I ran a dakkapole list, I would probably take a squad of jumpers.

[Brother Landrain]

Anyway, none of that matters, lol.  I only field them in casual lists, for the fun of it.  In competitive settings, it's deathwing for me.  If I ran a dakkapole list, I would probably take a squad of jumpers.

Would have been nice if Assault Squads had Bolter options... Then they would be more DA like, and a useful unit with the Dakkapole...

[Brother Immolator]

 

Anyway, none of that matters, lol.  I only field them in casual lists, for the fun of it.  In competitive settings, it's deathwing for me.  If I ran a dakkapole list, I would probably take a squad of jumpers.

Would have been nice if Assault Squads had Bolter options... Then they would be more DA like, and a useful unit with the Dakkapole...

That would be dangerously OP/make ravenwing squadrons a tad bit obsolete. I was of that mindset as well till I had a fun game and the opponent was one of the cool guys that lets you try out your mad ideas. There were no dakka poles back then.

 

All I can say is: Deepstrike, rapidfire. Gate of infinity, deepstrike rapid fire and charge and avenger into the mix.

[meeper]

I feel like on their merits alone, they arent worth taking as bikes armed with flamers can do the job much more effectively and can be scoring with the proper HQ. 

 

I am about to try a 7 man assault squad w\ 2 flamers and PW Vet Sgt, I plan on getting a pod instead of keeping the jump packs and making the unit a bodyguard for Azrael and a lvl 1 divination librarian.

 

They will be drop podding alongside 2 deep striking squads of deathwing terminators to provide a supporting assault role.

 

With the librarian letting the entire squad reroll failed to hit in both shooting and CC (as well as azrael), the unit in a horde blender.

 

Also, the flamers will be able to target whatever squad I need thanks to the precision DS allowed by the pod.

 

Ill let everyone know how it turns out next week. 

[march10k]

 

Anyway, none of that matters, lol.  I only field them in casual lists, for the fun of it.  In competitive settings, it's deathwing for me.  If I ran a dakkapole list, I would probably take a squad of jumpers.

Would have been nice if Assault Squads had Bolter options... Then they would be more DA like, and a useful unit with the Dakkapole...

Nah. First of all, while the dakkapole makes DA the best MEQ gunline, DA are neither a shooty nor an assaulty army, but rather a balanced one.  It is true that most of our unique stuff over the years has been plasma, which is shooty, not assaulty...and ravenwing are defintiely shooty, not assaulty.  And, other than deathwing knights, we don't really have OTT melee units...but we have pretty much all of the same melee capabilities of C:UM.  But one available banner does not make us tau, guard, or sisters.  We're not a shooty army, we just have access to a few things like the dakkapole that allow us to be shooty.

 

Second...jump packs and bubbles don't mix.  If you're staying within 12" of the banner, what do you need the jump pack for???

[Brother Landrain]

I just love the idea of a unit that can rapidly redeploy to put up some sustained fire on a target.

 

Of course, stormbolters are better for that job... but we can only dream for so much one day...

[Disciple of Caliban Sgt]

When I first started playing waay back in the beginning of 5th edition (ok not so way back) I fell in love with Assault Marines and had to have some. So I used C:SM and a regular chaplain and Assault marines with PP and a PF on the Sarge. Played my friend who helped me get into the hobby and is an excellent tournie player. He played orks and had a 10 Man Nob unit with Doc and Big Mek. I DS out of range and next turn jumped over terrain and shot and charged them. While incredibly lucky I managed too wipe the whole Nob squad and take two wounds off the Mek. My Friend informed me he had never had all of his Nobz wiped out before in 10 years of playing and he was impressed. Quick reaction force is how I see them and they do it perfectly I think. Not too expensive and therefore not the end all beat all in CC but good enough to tie up most units and allow your shooty units to keep shooting. Add a Interragator Chappy and you've got a decent enough shooty I think. Then again I'm a bit of a noob so take that with lots of salt

[Brother Landrain]

The problem with Assault Marines, is that they are Marines... 4 4 4 4 Ini 4 A 1

 

yes, with a BP/CCW they get +1 A, and on the charge they get 3 attacks. (4 if you get HoW)

 

But while their equipment makes them a Close Combat unit, their stats really relegate them to a jack of all trades unit.

They are above average at everything but not especially good at anything either.

 

A True CC unit will have higher WS and/or S, as well as higher Base attacks and usually a higher initiative.

If they do not have that higher initiative, they usually make up for it with extra wounds, FNP, or exceptional 2+/3++ type saves.

 

Last edition, Assault Marines were IMO more valuable as they worked very well in Razor-Spam lists. With multiple Special Weapons in a 5 man squad, as well as the ability to disembark, fire and charge from Razorbacks. They were relatively cost effective units. Not a unit to charge a full strength enemy, but one that was good at finishing off wounded and depleted enemies.

 

In 6th edition, I feel that they have been seriously reduced in effectiveness. With the change to non-Assault vehicles and charges, their Viability in a Mech list is greatly diminished. Also, while Hammer of Wrath is a nice ability, It is not triggered all the time. One of a JP units greatest strengths was being able to Move 12, and Charge, with an effective Charge Range of 18". Combined with disembarking and other fudge factors, you could realistically charge ~21" from a Razorback in 5th edition. Now, if you want HoW, you can only move 6" and then charge 2d6, rerolling. Which is realistically maybe 14" and with a chance at failure even then. Combined with Overwatch fire. The Charge of an Assault Marine Squad has really been diminished.

 

Now one of their best uses IMO is Not as an aggressive forward unit, but instead is as a backfield unit. That is used as a countercharge unit to support your scoring units when they are charged. By adding in a Chaplain with JP, and a Sgt with Melee Weapon.

 

The other interesting usage of our Assault squads is as a Drop-Pod Flamer squad. With 2 flamers and a combi-flamer. The Assault squad can usually be relied upon to drop on turn one within Range of an enemy unit and be able to do a significant amount of damage with 3 templates. Downside of this, is that the Assault squad is most likely wiped out the next turn, as well as you have just given the enemy 2-3 kill points. And Not all enemies are vulnerable to flamer templates. Also, for some more points, a Veteran Squad can do the same tactic, only be much Stronger in CC and have ways of being more resilient.

 

Without the ability of being scoring (BA), or of being upgraded to a better CC unit (such as Death Company) And due to the limiting Mech Issues (no charging from a Rhino, as well as the Rhino being an easy kill) The usability of Assault Squads for DA is rather limited and the job can usually be done better by another one of our units.

 

As an aside, due to their relatively low survivability, and being stubborn anyways, the Veteran Sgt ability is imo not worth it for DA Assault Squads. IF only the Veteran Sgt. had access to special issue wargear...

[IndigoJack]

 

 

Anyway, none of that matters, lol.  I only field them in casual lists, for the fun of it.  In competitive settings, it's deathwing for me.  If I ran a dakkapole list, I would probably take a squad of jumpers.

Would have been nice if Assault Squads had Bolter options... Then they would be more DA like, and a useful unit with the Dakkapole...

That would be dangerously OP/make ravenwing squadrons a tad bit obsolete. I was of that mindset as well till I had a fun game and the opponent was one of the cool guys that lets you try out your mad ideas. There were no dakka poles back then.

 

All I can say is: Deepstrike, rapidfire. Gate of infinity, deepstrike rapid fire and charge and avenger into the mix.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, jump pack infantry aren't relentless, and unless they're standing still they would not really benefit from the SoD. Sorry, ravenwing beat them in that regard. In fact, it's because of ravenwing (RAS, BKs, the dark shroud) that assault marines seem so ho-hum. By themselves they seem like a solid unit, but when you only get 3 FA slots and you start to look at your other options, assault marines really don't seem as great anymore.

[twopounder]

 

 

 

Anyway, none of that matters, lol.  I only field them in casual lists, for the fun of it.  In competitive settings, it's deathwing for me.  If I ran a dakkapole list, I would probably take a squad of jumpers.

Would have been nice if Assault Squads had Bolter options... Then they would be more DA like, and a useful unit with the Dakkapole...

That would be dangerously OP/make ravenwing squadrons a tad bit obsolete. I was of that mindset as well till I had a fun game and the opponent was one of the cool guys that lets you try out your mad ideas. There were no dakka poles back then.

 

All I can say is: Deepstrike, rapidfire. Gate of infinity, deepstrike rapid fire and charge and avenger into the mix.

 

Unless I'm mistaken, jump pack infantry aren't relentless, and unless they're standing still they would not really benefit from the SoD. Sorry, ravenwing beat them in that regard. In fact, it's because of ravenwing (RAS, BKs, the dark shroud) that assault marines seem so ho-hum. By themselves they seem like a solid unit, but when you only get 3 FA slots and you start to look at your other options, assault marines really don't seem as great anymore.

 

It's because you assume all games are 2000 points. Units are meant to scale with the size of a game. At 500 - 1000 points, assault squads aren't too bad. They're a cheap fast attack option. Bikes soak up a lot of points (though not nearly as much since the enormous discount we got in 6th). It's the same with dreadnoughts.

 

Basically, when you have a lot of points the FOC slots are critical. When you have fewer points, then each point is worth more than a FOC slot (you'll never fill it up anyway). GW didn't do this in 3rd edition, and it was a bit catastrophic. Eldar could take 3 wraith lords and a barrel of star cannons/pulse lasers in 750 points. Other armies couldn't field enough to kill the wraith lords with that small amount of points. A single devastator squad with 4 lascannons was 215 points back then, far more than the wraith lord you were expecting to kill with it. Plus you'd have to contend with their banshees that were far, for more powerful than they are now.

 

So now the codex seems to ramp, with units that are less useful as the game increases in points.

[PhillyT]

So if assault squads are out, what CC unit are we left with?  Terminators and Bikes?  

 

I only ask because having at least two units that can effectively fight in melee is a must for me.  I currently use terminators, but I would assume bikes work as well, or perhaps veteran squads.

[twopounder]

So if assault squads are out, what CC unit are we left with?  Terminators and Bikes?  

 

I only ask because having at least two units that can effectively fight in melee is a must for me.  I currently use terminators, but I would assume bikes work as well, or perhaps veteran squads.

 

Depends on what you're fighting. Ravenwing Knights are pretty insane in an assault. You can blow them straight through cover, reduce ws, t, and i by 1, unload with twin-linked plasma, then assault with 4x str +1 rending attacks per bike. They're the space marine equiv of genestealers. But against any very high initiative power weapon units, they can die very, very fast (don't ever try to assault genestealers with them). But you can effectively make a mob of 30 orks ws 3, t3, which means you hit on 3, wound on 2, rend and can hit and run back into cover. Since cover gives you +1, you'll generally get a 2+ or 3+ cover save. Don't forget hammer of wrath.

 

Don't want to assault it? Wack it with a rad grenade and unload with the plasma talons. You just made standard marines suffer instant death from your plasma rounds. Same with tau crisis suits, tyranid warriors, ork nobz, necrons, etc. But beware the heldrake. It can eat a ravenwing army in a couple of turns. 

 

Deathwing Knights are another great hard hitter. Not only do they get hammer of wrath, t5, and a 3++, they get the smite attack and ALL have precision strike. They're excellent for dealing with genestealers, large mobs, or monsterous creatures without worrying about their loadout. Curb stomp the infiltrated genestealers then smite the deepstriking trygon (works like a charm). They're very slow, though, and lack a shooting weapon so they can get worn down by a high volume of fire. They also can't attack flyers at all, not even for a hail mary.