Q about Unforgiven fluff

[Frater Cornelius]

Hey there,

let's keep it short. I am doing a DIY Chapter with IA and eventually a Fandex.

The question that has been bugging me since the beginning was which Primarch, and hence Legion to go from. I have narrowed it down to Corax, Dorn and Jonson. Since we are talking about DA, let me present you my thinking about DA and Jonson.

 

I like the Legion, I like the style, flavour and aesthetics. I actually do appreciate their history quite a bit (even if it is filled with some, well... borderline retarded decisions, the consequences of which could easily be foreseen by someone with Jonson's intellect).

 

What I do not like is their subsequent (albeit understandable) paranoia and the lack of autonomy of the successors. And therein lies my problem, ladies and gentlefolks. I do not want my successor be boot-licks of the current Grand Master of the DA and I do not want them to waste time pursuing a farce instead of doing their task, given to them by the Big E.

In my eyes, the Fallen need to be regarded as any other heretics and only the most dangerous should be given more thought (like any dangerous heretic for that matter).

While I do understand that this all is what the DA are and part of the reason I like them.

 

Wouldn't it, however, be possible for a successor, on whom the DA did not have the influence they would have like to have, give the Grand Master the middle finger and do stuff on his own, assisting whenever they see fit? Or perhaps the DA do not know that their successor knows as much as they do.

While it could all be, I do not think that the DA will let that one fly, not with their paranoia. More likely than not, they will wipe out the Chapter.

 

The only thing that gives me hope are the Angels of Absolution. They think differently but still co-exist.

 

Anyway, got any thoughts/ideas? DA successor has the potential for a more interesting story than the other two potential Legions, but there is the fluff to consider ;)

[Grotsmasha]

There is precedent for chapters of DA geneseed being unaware of the Fallen and as such, are not beholden to the DA SGM. So basically, make your successor unaware of the fallen, and then the DA's have no need to be in control. Originally it was only the Four Chapters of the Second Founding that were aware of the Fallen and persued the Hunt.

 

Cheers,

Jono

[Kabbala]

Quite simply, it's your DIY Chapter fluff.  It can be whatever you wish it too, only needing to be justified to your standards.

[Cod]

Yep, its true!

 

 

I also think the Angels of Vigilance were pulled away to look after some gate, or protect it or something, I'm not sure, maybe they have less strong ties to the DA because of that.

 

If it's a DIY chapter then you could make anything work for yourself really. I thought once about a DA company sent by Johnson during the heresy to follow traitors into the warp, what if they returned and instead of the current DA discovering them first, it was another Chapter?

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Maybe you'd like to go with the Imperial Fist successors.

[Aegnor]

A successor chapter who doesn't coordinate with the rest of the Unforgiven is quite possible, although a level of deference towards the "original" chapter is pretty universal for all lineages of marine. So you'd need a reason for why they don't get along with the Dark Angels beyond "we're badasses who don't take crap from no-one". ;)

 

The hunt for the Fallen issue is less flexible in my mind. If you really don't like it as a concept, I'd suggest the Dark Angels aren't the gene-lineage for you. It's such a massive part of who all the Unforgiven are, it's really our defining quality.

 

If the other parts of the Dark Angel vibe appeals to you, I think it would be easier to do a DIY using Ultramarine or Imperial Fist geneseed and simply appropriate the aesthetic you like. They have knightly successors and monk like successors and are free of the issues you dislike.

 

You *can* do a DIY successor that differs from the Dark Angels on the hunt of the Fallen. I've started one, but it still needs a lot of work. However its really quite difficult and will walk a very fine line between making sense and being illogical/silly. (No small part of the reason mine is unfinished). Even then, the question of their behaviour towards the hunt for the Fallen will still be their defining quality.

[Frater Cornelius]

Thanks for the quick replies.

First of all, the reasons. While I did not give too much though, I was considering something along these lines. First, they revere the Big E and thus follow his mandate and thus blame the DA of forsaking his way to follow an own agenda, no matter how righteous it is. The Fallen must not be given attention above and beyond the other threats of the Imperium. I was also thinking of spicing up the back story and get an actual Fallen Angel involves, who avoids the DA retribution but holds true to the Emperor, seeking penance for his mistakes and also leaves his mark on the Chapter.. a bit. If I find something nice, I might get the Fallen involved in a bigger fashion, thus the successor gains a somewhat different perspective.

But, by no means, will I exclude the fallen. It is less the Fallen that trouble me (I love them) and more the control the Grand Master has and the dogmatic few of the Fallen. If I go down the DA route, the Fallen WILL have a prominent role. Just not in the traditional sense (yes, I would like to get as many nipples in a twist as possible).

As for choosing another progenitor and adjusting my chapter? Haha, yeah, that is what I have done. You must understand this. The origin does not influence the outcome. It is the outcome, my chapter, that the origin will adjust to. My reason for considering multiple options is different. I put a lot of work in conversions into it, as well as time and thought. It is, through and through, my creation and I want it to mirror myself and the things I like (which is why UM are not on the list^^).

I will simply sleep better at night, knowing that my chapter has an interesting back story and origin, that I like That is also the reason why DA is so attractive. The whole DA and FA thing s engaging and at times I have more sympathy for the Fallen (the one who got deceived, not the ones that willingly joined Luther's rebellion) than the DA.

Sure, I can obscure the origin, say it's IF and put some vague Dorn references in there, but it is not fulfilling, if you catch my drift

Although the Lion is my least faveourite Primarch of the 3 (which I mostly blame the HH writers for)...

[Chaplain Lucifer]

In my rather black and white view of things there are only two choices:

It's a DA sucessor that has no knowledge of the Fallen... or it's infected by DA paranoia and hunts the Fallen like any other DA sucessor.

In my view the DA secrets, rituals and paranoia are so rooted into DA's that you can't really shake it off. Mayeb some more enlightned member can fight against the stream, but he will be quickly droned by the more fanatics... that's my 2 cents.

[Captain Semper]

Immersturm, on 24 Apr 2013 - 12:10, said:

What I do not like is their subsequent (albeit understandable) paranoia and the lack of autonomy of the successors. And therein lies my problem, ladies and gentlefolks. I do not want my successor be boot-licks of the current Grand Master of the DA and I do not want them to waste time pursuing a farce instead of doing their task, given to them by the Big E.

Well, here's a thought: Do not look at it as a "standard" parent-successor relation - with the degree of independence between them as per Codex Astartes. Look at it as a "secret Legion". Let me explain. One of the defining traits of the DAs is the grip of the Inner Circle accross the successors. Therefore there is a common link between them - the higher echelons of a successor do not see themselves as independent bosses of their Chapters but as Chapter Masters of the Old Legion - ones that would gladly follow the orders of the command chain rather than feel overshadowed by it. It is a take that is supported by current fluff and it is up to you how much you want to work with it... Under this light, Chapter Masters are no more "boot lickers" than the Legion Chapter Masters that were following the will of the Lion. Oh, and the task given to them by the big E might very well be the one you call "a farce". As the big E has some, ermm... communication issues, the Inner Circle is the body that decides what the Emperor expects from them, much like the High Lords decide in the name of the Emperor what should be done with the Imperium... The final point is that if you do not play the Fallen theme then there is no room for DW or indeed RW as special formations, and you'll end up with what looks very much like any Codex chapter. Which begs the question, why would you bother labeling your Chapter as a DA succesor at all?

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In my eyes, the Fallen need to be regarded as any other heretics and only the most dangerous should be given more thought (like any dangerous heretic for that matter).

While I do understand that this all is what the DA are and part of the reason I like them.

The Hunt of the Fallen is not a side show, it's the main show. That's what the DAs basically do. The Fallen are not "other Heretics". If that was the case the DAs would come clean, and the hunt would be a straight forward extermination process. It is not however. The main reason for capturing the Fallen is to make them repent - not kill them outright. The redemption of the Unforgiven is based upon the repentence of the Fallen, the admission of guilt... The guilt of the DAs will be lifted only through the repetnece of the Fallen - if the latter live or die is unimportant compared to their repetence.

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Wouldn't it, however, be possible for a successor, on whom the DA did not have the influence they would have like to have, give the Grand Master the middle finger and do stuff on his own, assisting whenever they see fit? Or perhaps the DA do not know that their successor knows as much as they do.

All the Successor Chapter Masters are members of the Inner Circle. They are not bullied into doing what the SGM wants. It is their quest too... And members of the Inner Circle are scrutinised by the Librarium etc. etc. o if you want to go down the road of the renegate DA Chapter Master you are really breaking with established lore - and it begs the question: why? If you want DAs that have nothing to do with DAs you may as well take an UM successor. From a certain light they are DAs without the guilt... *takes cover to avoid UM all-out attack*

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The only thing that gives me hope are the Angels of Absolution. They think differently but still co-exist.

Anyway, got any thoughts/ideas? DA successor has the potential for a more interesting story than the other two potential Legions, but there is the fluff to consider

The Angels of Absolution comply with the rest of the Unfirgiven parctices in hunting down the Fallen. They do not ignore the fact nor do they place lower importance to the Hunt. True, they do not share the guilt - but their practices are similar to the rest of the Unforgiven.

So to recap, an Unforgiven that does not share the guilt, does not care if a heretic wears the DA symbols and have no allegience to the SGM, begs the question: why is it Unforgiven?

[Frater Cornelius]

Okay, while I do hate you now Semper (nothing personal), you probably have brought up the one point I tried to avoid with all might.
I suppose it is true, after all, it is what the Chapter is all about, which is a shame, really. It has so much potential for interesting ideas and stories but it is all limited by their rampant paranoia.
D'oh well, gotta rethink the origin while retaining the DA feel within my Chapter as much as possible. Helluva lot of work though, not that I mind.

In the end, they are going to be similar to DA in their approach (you know, some sort of personal and secret pseudo-inquisition doing research, gathering intel and predicting where and what and how to strike to achieve an effective victory and limiting the damage this threat can do, preferably crushing it while it is under development and not in full effect; rather than figuring all out along the way and responding to the threat, instead of preventing it in the first place... maybe even a bit more radical, if I can get away with it), though it is not limited to the Fallen but to whatever is posing the greatest threat to where their forces are operating at any given time or whatever grabs they attention. And once they find whatever they are looking for, they deploy via Teleport/Drop-Pod/Aircraft and smash/recover/do whatever they need to do while singing songs of battle and having a knightly feast afterwards to commemorate their fallen brothers and celebrate the success before apprehending possible prisoners, xenos or otherwise.. yeah this is where the similarities end. There's helluva lot more to that, obviously, but that is the general gist of their approach to engagements anyway.

 

Probably going to be Dorn, seeing as I do not want to paint my veterans all pale skinned and black haired. Damn it GW, I am starting to take this personal^^
Still, mainly going to use the DA Codex anyway, because I like it. And because I can.

[Aegnor]

I see no issue with using the DA.codex to count as for another chapter.

 

Always with DIY chapters, there are no limits on the "what" so long as the "why" and "how" are sufficiently interesting. You could have IF successors on a hunt to locate and destroy all Iron Warriors, using Ravenwing style hunt as their eyes and ears. Would explain the Preferred Enemy (Chaos Marines). The other shinys could just be from being Dorn's kickass sons.

[Captain Semper]

Immersturm, on 24 Apr 2013 - 13:10, said:

Okay, while I do hate you now Semper (nothing personal), you probably have brought up the one point I tried to avoid with all might.

Yeah, I get that on occasion...

I suppose it is true, after all, it is what the Chapter is all about, which is a shame, really. It has so much potential for interesting ideas and stories but it is all limited by their rampant paranoia.

Well, if you're looking for themes here are some interesting and unique points:

- Secret Legion Theme. People think that the big differences with the Codex is the DW and the RW, i.e. some organizational differences (and DW is hardly even that). But the biggest departure from the Codex is without doubt the "Secret LEgion" theme. All the Unforgiven are on some level connected to the common cause and are goverend by a unified body. This is blatant disregard for the Codex spirit (it aimed to tone down the strenght of SMs but the DAs have navigated around it) that borders to Heresy. So another secret to guard.

- Circles within Circles. The paranoia you describe at its best! A number of levels of knoewledge with secret tasks and on occasion even conflicting priorities... You may even invent you own Circle that has the aim to catch a specific Fallen (you get to write fluff for him too) or is tasked with clean-up operations to cover the DA activities.

- Hi-tech. Remember the first legion is technology rich and this creates the opportunity to play up a DA Techmarine perspective who is oblivious to the Fallen and all that jazz.

- Noble knights that are not so noble. Some like the "tragic" perspective (not me mind you) for the DAs. Like they want to be nice and save humanity but the Fallen sometimes deny them the chance. So they are primarily a bunch of loyal marines with a knightly imagery and code of conduct (which was very much the case before the heresy anyway) and only on rare occasions to they bother with the Fallen. That way you silently push the "bad" Fallen theme away and make them Green UMs with robes... So cool imagery? check! Fallen downplayed? Check! Cool new Codex (rules and minis)? Check!

So there are some interesting themes that you can choose to play - DAs are far from one-dimensional, but to be fair, the Fallen are at the core of the DA mythos.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Aegnor: Does this talk of the hows and whys of Unforgiven Chapters breaking with the grain not fill your soul with zeal to work on your own much neglected successor? It's that time of the year too.

[Aegnor]

To work on that, to keep working on my started alternate Heresy history, to paint some minis, keep doing my day job AND not become a complete recluse who my family doesn't recognize! ;)

 

I'm sadly a great starter of hobby projects and a distracted finisher.

 

Plus I will admit my successors lost a little bit of impetus when the Codex came out. Before the codex came out I planned to do my DA force as my successors. After reading the codex I decided I wanted to be the Dark Angels themselves. So it's a bit more of an academic exercise than it was originally intended.

 

Sigh... I need a clone! ;)

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

To work on that, to keep working on my started alternate Heresy history, to paint some minis, keep doing my day job AND not become a complete recluse who my family doesn't recognize!

Your Legion demands nothing less than your all. You know what you must do, brother...

Anyway, as a fellow starter of projects, abandoner of ideas... Oh wait, I can't help ya.

[Deathwing70]

imo, in the end when you decide you use a certain codex for your DIY chapter, all you´re using is the actual rules for the models.

For DA Codex all you´re getting army/wise is fearless, stubborn and preferred enemy (CSM). There are basically no rules that specifically mention stuff about the hunt or the fallen - game-wise. You might have to come up with some reasons (if you want ofc) how your chapter came across some of the old relics though if you decide to field them.

I believe there are plenty of reasons a chapter could be created using DA gene-seed also without the DA knowing about it (Chapters usually have no say in whether a new chapter is created or not). I believe the successor chapter would only be part of the Unforgiven if the DA (and other Unforgiven Chapters) decide to let them in on it. Ofcourse with a sizable fleet of battlebarges present / all the cannons of the Rock pointing at their home-planet in case they decide they want nothing to do with it, just to make sure they somehow 'dissapeared into a freak warp-storm'.

As for the rules, they are part of the gene-seed I believe. Though preferred enemy can easily be explained with some background information.

Just because the guys on Terra say they avoid using the DA gene-seed doesn't mean they don't, it is after all the purest they have to choose from. For all you know they could have an Inquisitor assigned to control the Chapter and keep an eye on it which could be a good hook for the part where you said:

In the end, they are going to be similar to DA in their approach (you know, some sort of personal and secret pseudo-inquisition doing research, gathering intel and predicting where and what and how to strike to achieve an effective victory and limiting the damage this threat can do, preferably crushing it while it is under development and not in full effect; rather than figuring all out along the way and responding to the threat, instead of preventing it in the first place... maybe even a bit more radical, if I can get away with it)

It sounds exactly like how an Inquisitor would think imo combined with the tactical brilliance of the Lion passed down in the gene-seed... Inquisitor interference could also explain the preferred enemy (csm) since that's usually the target the Inquisition hunts anyway.

[Frater Cornelius]

Hmm.. Dorn's kick-ass sons. This phrase inspires my brain to new feats of masculinity. Also, Semper, your Green UM point sort of got me forward, but in the opposite direction of the DA.

Okay listen to this:

BT (or any other IF related chapter) goes through their usual Pray Kill Burn routine when for some reason they get into a unknown sector with a human inhabited planet. These people have a hunting culture since Storms and what-not mutated the local wild and sea life into big-ass monsters, and they hunt each other. The noble elite, some knight run around in big armour and wear furr of felled beasts. Those people like to feast and have their own breweries and such and grand occasions like a big hunt, war, feasts or burials include song or legends, battles and myths.

So these humans welcome the marines (I'll call 'em BT for now) as grand warriors and the pinacle of the hunt. The BT like them for their combat prowess and low corruption dispite all that is going on but don't stay because they have this urge to punish traitors and run off, but not before telling the IF. So the IF come and see that it would be kick-ass to have this sector but do not have the man power to completely secure it. So they tell the HLoT, who by now have enough requests and make a new founding (call it the 6th for now).

So the IF get recruits and fortify the living crap out of the castles which belong to the knights as well as the forrest outposts which belong to tribal hunter folks while the AdMech does their thing and we have a new chapter.

After a while some Chaos guy get attracted due to some convenient plot device and the system gets isolated by storms (call them IW for now). This sparks a rebellion which kills all the older Fists who trained the native marines but gets overthrown by the loyalists of the native marines present. So the dying Chapter Master (former IF veteran, lets call him Karl) who trained the successor sais he is proud and the leader of the loyal native marines becomes new CM.

After this rebellion they all got righteously angry and made their underground inquisition to hunt Chaos (maybe the IW who did the rebellion?) and enemies of mankind in general. So after storms pass they get acknowledged as Chapter (maybe the Chapter gave a false report to avoid suspicion?) and now do the modus operandi I described above with questioning and torturing xenos and heretics with pain gloves to destroy impending threats while still retaining their hunting and feasting culture. They revere Big E as the big champ of humanity and get righteous angry at all anti humanity movements.

The Storms also linger a bit and every set period of time the monster population reaches a critical mass and the Chapter Master call out the Wild Hunt where a Master Of The Wild Hunt (need Emperors Champion model) leads the hunt to kill of beasts until they calm down and do it all again next year.

The tech advancement (because it is DA codex) could be explained by their underground inquisition-esque organisation who does enough research to justify plasma spam. After the storms there could be an eternal (natural) storm going around the planet which the local Druid-esque psycher summon in combat (yes, I occasionally play SW codex). The other psychers are Lorekeepers (DA Libs).

 

So, the stuff I love about DA without the SGM breathing down my neck. I believe Dorn is the better Primarch here than Corax, since RG might be knightly and favour the intel-gathering my guys will be doing as well as some hunting elements, Corax is kind and humanitarian but, in the end tragic, dark and not righteously angry enough and they lack the noble and golden look of Dorn (like a torch in the darkness of Warhammer) and I do not think RG get along with my feasting and singing. Now I only need to learn to live with Dorns lame demise against some random marines. While I love how to took on the Chaos armada with a few boats he build in a cave with a box of scraps held together with spit, his death could be more glorious. Oh well, like he was in life, more down to earth than gravity.

 

Anyway, that is my idea. And sorry for a) derailing threat and b) getting IF talk in the DA forum. I shall repent.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

The immediate issue I have with your plan, such as it is, is that (AS FAR AS I KNOW) the BT's don't really bother with the red tape when it comes to claiming death worlds with promising aspirants. It might be more straightforward to have the IFs involved from the start and have them be rewarded for bringing the planet back into the fold by the creation of a Chapter with Dorn's geneseed. But as you said, you might have better luck with fluffy discussions elsewhere.

 

You're welcome to come by the strategium every now and then, btw.

[Frater Cornelius]

Well it does not have to be BT. Might as well be an IF contigent for all I care. The general idea counts.

I like the inquisitor idea. I have thought about it before. Put in a radical inquisitor so they have access to evil stuff like demon hosts to question demons.. EDGY!

But there one big problem. The Inquisitor will be in charge, not my CM. And a CM being inquisitor is nonsense. I could have the inquisitor die during the local heresy but that would do more to damn my chapter than making it free.