Question

[Sandviper]

At what point value army does Abbadon become a viable HQ choice?

[TheDevourer]

I tried going 1850 pts with him, but I found the list very lacking. Maybe at 2000+ points. But it could just be me.

[Sandviper]

Alright so definately not at a 1500 point level?

[Sception]

what do you mean by 'viable'?  With his pathetic threat radius, he'll never be 'optimal'.  At higher points, it's easier to swallow his cost, but it's also easier to clear him & whatever delivery system you're using for him off the board.

 

In general, yeah, an HQ pushing 300 points doesn't fit too well into a 1500 point army, but there will be games that you win because the opponent just can't deal with him and he's standing on a game deciding objective, or because the one unit he typically gets to catch and kill in a given game was enough to swing the balance.  Also, smaller games tend to use smaller tables, where his threat radius isn't as awful.

 

I've only used him a few times, in APO games or regular games of 3k+ points.  It's not a huge difference, but the FAQ ruling might inspire me to field him a bit more often.  I know a dude who runs a proxy Abaddon in an iron warriors army, deep striking with a largish squad of naked terminators, and yeah, there are games that he wins because they land right and the enemy can't deal with it.  But there are games that he loses because they land wrong or late or the enemy can clear them from the table or just avoid them.  It becomes an all or nothing sort of thing, which is fun for a game or two but then gets old.

[Sandviper]

So hes a hit or miss kind of thing. Gotcha

[Warsmith Aznable]

He's wearing TDA, so like anyone else wearing TDA mobility is his biggest problem. But when he catches something he usually kills it so hard that your opponent will take a minute to stare at him in disbelief. If his deployment is bungled and he ends up caught in the open, expect him to die horribly to everything in the world shooting at him.

 

If Chosen were better, Abaddon would be better. If Chaos Terminators were better, Abaddon would be better. If Mutilators/Obliterators were better, Abaddon would be better. As it stands, he's a fantastic leader for a mediocre retinue.

 

He can be kind of funny to squeeze into a low points game when your opponent isn't expecting him. But really he needs a retinue with 2+ armour saves to go with him, so figuring out where he's viable depends on how many points you're willing to spend to make those kinds of units work. I used to run him with Chosen retinue, but after the power weapon nerf it's not nearly as effective. I've tried Mutilators and Obliterators in 6th, but Chaos Terminators seem to work better for me (YMMV).

 

He makes Chosen a Troops choice. That is not as cool in practice as it probably sounded to GW when they wrote the codex.

 

His Warlord Trait is pretty good.

 

His ability to lead any kind Mark of Chaos troop is nice, if for no other reason than it lets you stay with your preferred god when adding Abaddon to the army instead of displacing your theme to accommodate him.

 

That Drach'nyen and the Talon of Horus are separate weapons now is great, because you don't have to risk the embarrassment of not being able to control your own daemon sword in front of guests if they didn't bring anything better than power armour.

[Sandviper]

I see. Maybe Ill try to work him in. I dont know about taking Chosen, yes even though they are troops, doesnt mean they are worth taking. Id prefer plague marines over chosen anyday even with the 5 plasma guns

[Dam13n]

I've never been a fan, every time I've seen him used, he's died without accomplishing much.

 

But then again I get twitchy about spending more than 165pts on any HQ model.

 

I'm one of the few that rate Chosen, but I wouldn't want to base an army on them. Primarily because CSM don't have drop pods to deliver them where their special weapons will do the most damage.

 

If Chosen were more like Wolf Guard - able to be upgraded to terminators, deploy via drop pod etc. they'd be more viable;

 

- Abaddon plus Chosen Terminators in drop pod or land raider

- Units of special weapon Chosen in drop pods

- Units of Cultists to hold objectives cheaply

- Drakes

- Oblits/Fiends/Havoks

 

This could be a decent army, unfortunately it can't be done...

[Sandviper]

Well Im gonna run a squad of him and 5 nurgle termies so im hoping that keeps him alive long enough to get into combat, with the termi champion to take challenges

[zyl-]

I can't find many times where Typhus doesn't cleanly beat out Abaddon. Fewer points, plague marines are troops, which are better than chosen to me, and zombies. Still a mele monster, still TDA, psyker powers. Seeing as how some people don't even think Typhus is worth the time of day, I can't think of a time when I'd want to field Abaddon.

[Sandviper]

Eternal warrior so anything with strength 10.

[zyl-]

True, but looking at the actual number of strength 10 threats that are out there, it's usually not too difficult to play it safe. I've lost Typhus more to the chaos boon table than I have to instant death so far.

[chillin]

I'm with Dam13n, I'm too much of a cheapskate when it comes to HQ points to spend all those points on him. I never even used him when LR rush was a viable army, so I certainly wouldnt now.

[Sandviper]

I see I see. Well then. I just very much like Eternal Warrior. The idea of my HQ being insta gibbed, like power fists do to almost every other single HQ in our codex, just pisses me off a little bit.

[chillin]

In years of playing I've only had my chaos lord insta-squished a very few times, and that was when we could only get 5+ invul saves. Now with 4+ and the way challenges work your lord should hardly ever get insta-squished unless you put him in a very bad spot.

[Sandviper]

Well how do you avoid strength 10 power fists from other warlords? Ive only played around 10 games and around 5 of them were orks.

[Dam13n]

Give the Lord a jump pack, bike or Juggernaut then destroy his transports.

 

At that point you can pick your fights in combat due to being more manoeuvrable. You should also focus fire on killing the units that present the most threat.

 

Going for MoN, Bike, Sigil, Blight Grenades gives you T6, 4++ with a 5+ cover that improves to 3+ when shot at by nearby enemies (just in case somebody packs null zone).

 

Give him a burning brand and he'll get to zoom around killing things without being threatened unduly.

 

Plus, you can put him in a unit of Nurgle bikes giving him ablative wounds.

 

(He'll also make plague marines troops as well, and they're probably the best infantry unit in the codex, especially once they're scoring)

[Sandviper]

Yeah I guess the way to go is juggernaut of khorne or nurgle biker lord these days. Alright then

[Dam13n]

Don't get me wrong, there are other options. However if what you are worried about are S10 Melee attacks, then speed and toughness will count for a lot.

 

Of course a flying daemon prince can't be engaged at all by those melee attacks unless it's grounded, plus can move 24" a turn when swooping.

- but then you're looking at an expensive HQ that can't join units and will be a bullet magnet for your enemies firepower, so will require careful management in order to be effective.

 

Another option is to try and make sure that they never make it across the board to you, this requires a decent gunline with a method of slowing down the enemy - either with roadblock units, outflankers, infiltrators or fast units. You will end up sacrificing units, but it can be effective. (Elites are good in this role as they only ever give a victory (kill) point in 1 of the 6 missions, just be wary of giving away 1st blood and don't put your warlord in with them.)

 

Personally my army revolves around a gunline plus 2 units of special weapon chosen (1 flamers, 1 meltas) in rhinos, that either infiltrate or outflank thanks to Huron's Master of Deception. My other HQ is a Nurgle Terminator Lord (to give me plague marine troops) with a sigil and burning brand.

 

And I've yet to lose (or even draw) a game in 6th with it. I just adapted it from my old 5th edition army (which was also fairly successful, only losing to 1 beardy Space Wolves player and Tournament level Eldar/Dark Eldar, despite the horror of the Gav-dex. It even used to trounce Draigo-wing, Armoured Guard and Kantor Sternguard spam with ease, all of which were competitive builds in our local meta).

[Sandviper]

Maybe ill try Typhus. I created a list with the nurgle lord and bikers. Btw on a side note with the biker lord, if I take the BBoS do I take a PF then or a LC?   The only thing I dont want to happen with Typhus is to take 150 models of zombies.

[Dam13n]

Seeing as anything with a 3+ save or worse will avoid the BBoS like the plague, a Power Fist or a Power Axe to take on 2+ saves would be sensible.

 

Putting an I:user AP>2 weapon (sword/mace/claw) on the champion lets you target your challenges accordingly.

 

Of course you can alternate who has what. (Champ set for dedicated anti-2+, Lord set for dedicated anti-3+ or worse for example)

[zyl-]

Seeing as anything with a 3+ save or worse will avoid the BBoS like the plague, a Power Fist or a Power Axe to take on 2+ saves would be sensible.

 

Putting an I:user AP>2 weapon (sword/mace/claw) on the champion lets you target your challenges accordingly.

 

Of course you can alternate who has what. (Champ set for dedicated anti-2+, Lord set for dedicated anti-3+ or worse for example)

Yes, I like this solution best. Though while we are making mention of such things, some people prefer to run a biker lord with both a power fist AND a lightning claw in order to better target challenges. I tend to get uncomfortable with the cost.

[Sandviper]

So its better to take a LC and a PF than one and the burning blade?

[minionboy]

True, but looking at the actual number of strength 10 threats that are out there, it's usually not too difficult to play it safe. I've lost Typhus more to the chaos boon table than I have to instant death so far.

 

Any monstrous creature is going to be dishing out S10.  Typically, my Abaddon is seeking out these targets and crushing them pretty handily.  Typhus on the other hand will just get stepped on.  :(

 

At what point value army does Abbadon become a viable HQ choice?

 

I use him in 1750 with a blob of 20 cultists.  Typically I play more defensively and use him as a counter-attack unit, which he does quite well.  Also with the 20 ablative wounds, he's not bad at marching up the board to midfield objectives if necessary.  I might try a deathstar later of Abaddon, Typhus and 3 Mutilators in a Land Raider, but for now, he's been fine.

[Sandviper]

Well If i took typhus I would rain death upon said  creature. Which is the reason Im scared to run a DP. Because my mindset isnt unique.