Master Avoghai Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Ok guys since the FAQ has brought more questions that it resolved and did forget some points, what about listing here some questions that constantly come and lead to Caliban battle-like opposition between battle brethen? I've made a short list of the point I had in mind but I'm sure there are lots that I've forgotten. The goal is to agree on that rapidly (say one or 2weeks max) so that we could all send it to GW in order to get an answer rapidly as well. A individual initiative may go directly to the trash or get an answer really slowly. A mass mailing could have more effect. You'll notice that I've also added 2 suggestions of modifications concerning the nephilim and the monster killer blade. Why such an addition? Because there's a general consensus about those 2 entries leading to people not using them. The proposed solutions don't make them a must-have but may lead to people using them more frequently. I think both could find an attentive ear to GW because it's easy fixing just like asmodai's bolt pistol or veterans' options modifications. However I don't think we should suggest more modifications because efficiency is often a room to subjectivity and endless debate. Better is good's worst enemy and that's why I got rid of the termi apoc issue or the LS vengeance issue... So without further explanation here's the list : Rules clarifications : Does a techmarine on bike have access to a Ravenwing command squadron? Does the servitors retinue unlock command squads? More generally, is a unit that doesnt take an HQ FOC slot, count for any kind of command squad unlocking? May I equip the same character with 2 different relics ? (The "one" wording is ambiguous). Same question with melee weapons. May I exchange the storm bolter/power sword of the terminator sergent by a pair of LC or a thunder hammer/storm shield for the appropriate cost? What is the use of the Power Field Generator affecting the passengers since they cannot be targeted? Do you mean that it affects vehicle and the passengers but not a friendly unit within 3"? Can Belial's Tactical Precision effectively be used with a librarians gating power (no scatter/missap), and if yes do I get to use vengefull strike each time I use it in conjuction with my terminators? Is there a step by step purchuce of equipment in the Dark Angels codex, or it all happens simultaneusly?Example: Can I have an apothecary with an upgraded weapon he normaly doesnt have access to, because I bought it at his veteran incarnation (which has access) first and then switched to an apothecary? Ravenwing command squad and black knights : may characters (hunt master, apothecary and /or champion) received the squadron grenade(s) launcher(s)? If I equip a model with a storm shield and 2 CCW (like vets or company master), may I choose to discard the 3++ save in order to benefit from the +1A bonus? If so, when should I announce it (when I declare the charge, when I put my model in contact, when I resolve my model's A...?) and am I allowed to change the following player's turn? Nephilim : When you say "delete Missile lock" concerning the missiles special rule, shouldn't be there a special rule replacing it (like armour bane) ? Because s6 missiles on a vehicle killers sounds like if something is missing... Rad Grenades : Let's consider a RW Black knights squadron with one grenade launcher. This squadron shots at a unit composed of 2W T4 models (like GK Paladins]. The grenades launcher hits and so do some plasma talon shots. Am I right to assume that the plasma talons rolls to wound will be resolved against T3 and therefore caused instant death? The Blade of Caliban. The unwieldy rule combined with a weak inv save and a low number of model in the command squad prevents champion to use and result in non fielding this great model. What about replacing unwieldy by specialist weapon? Dark Talon : May I use the Rift Cannon against a flyer if I say I use my AA mode for this turn? Standard of devastation/salvo weapons : if I move during my turn to be in range from a standard of devastation, I will shoot only 2 times at 12" with my bolters during my turn. But if, during its following turn, my opponent charge this squad, what profile should I use for my counter charge shoot? More generally, how work the salvo weapons with this kind of feature? C&C welcome and even encouraged ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 May I equip my character with 2 relics ? (The "one" wording is ambiguous).Change that to "May I equip my character with 2 different relics?" They may take the former as in "can I equip my character with 2 of the same relics?" Maybe ask about the PFG actually working on the vehicle the bearer is embarked upon? Though that is probably up for debate heh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 @elphilo : change made/added Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bryan Blaire Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 :tu: I'd give that list and the PFG my e-mail support. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Polythemus Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Ditto. I can get behind this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cielaq Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Suggestion of change from me: Blade of Caliban - replace "Unwieldy" with "Two handed" or "Specialist Weapon" . If the weapon is supposed to be used by dueling champions, it should be the one that will allow the bearer to strike before he is killed. ;) With one of those rules, the Blade would still have downside, and it would still be good representation of heavy sword. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azoriel Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Reduce the points cost of the DA flyers, in keeping with the points cost reduction of the Storm Talon? (Or beef them up to be worth the points cost?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 @ cielaq : I do like your proposal as it's a minor tweak but I'm really fearful to add too many proposals. I don't think we'll find a positive answer by sending a wish list... @Azoriel don't even expect GW to modify the costs of a 6 months old codex. As for making them be worth their points value, that's what my nephilim proposals are for... For the Talon it's hard to find a solution. Flyers are now taken to fight other flyers. The role of the talon is more an anti light infantry purpose. So even if we buff him up a little (I've once suggested the cannon to become large blast instead of blast), they won't be as good as nephilim and here again I'm in the same reflexion as what I've answered to cielaq :/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cielaq Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Don't worry, Master Avoghai, when I'll be e-mailing your list, I'll add my proposal myself. This way it won't be part of general spam clarification request. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted April 25, 2013 Author Share Posted April 25, 2013 Yeah but I DO like your suggestions :lol: Dilemma time :unsure: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mattias Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Hi Master Avoghai, I like the idea of this thread, especially of requesting a fix for the Nephilim or more specifically the Blacksword missiles (where the real fault lies), however I would have thought that it would be better to suggest a fix for the missiles that does not involve the creation of a new special rule, as this seems less likely to be adopted. I would suggest proposing two clear options: Increase to S8 or Armourbane In justifying this you could point out that no other single use missile in the game has a strength lower than 8 unless it is Blast/Large Blast. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Considering how much points cost the tau flyers i dont expect a point reduction for DA flyers... For the DT i suggest a AP value for the rift cannon... S5 AP5/4 would be decent to me... For the Blade of caliban i agree it should be Specialistic Weapon or Two Handed instead od Unwieldy... the champion has less attacks but strikes at normal I... Dont forget the LSV... The plasma storm battery has TWO firing barrels so it should be TWINLINKED... For the DW sergeant i would add a line like this... The DW sergeant can swap his SB for a combieapon (+6 points) and/or his PS with a PM OR he can swap both SB and PS for LC (free) or TH/SS (+5) Belial should have mastercrafted TH or LC to reflect his status of GMotDW These are my suggestions... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasmaspam Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Master Avoghai, count me in for supporting this petition. Would the B&C Mods object to this submission being made on behalf of "The B&C Dark Angels Community"? This is a major international forum/community - must count for something. At the risk of sounding passive/aggressive, I'd make the point to GW that they would sell more of these models (i.e. I for one am reluctant to spend more cash on them as they are) if they were officially amended to be more viable. my two-bob's worth for suggestion: Nephilim -change Blacksword Missiles to S7/R48"/Armourbane change Avenger Cannon to S6/R36"/Rending and if we're wishlisting - option to swap TL-HB's for TL-Plasma Guns S7/R24"/2 shots (Free) LS Vengeance -change Plasma Battery to Twin Linked 3-shot Deathwing -clarify/amend the recent FAQ to allow Sergeants to take TH/SS or LC's Flakk option on CML's Hope this initiative gets more support from the community. P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elphilo Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 S7 AND armorbane? I think you're reaching for the stars on that one. You'd probably have to pick one or the other to be a little more balanced. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted April 25, 2013 Share Posted April 25, 2013 Avenger Cannon... S7/R36"/AP3/Rending Or something creative, that isn't just a copy/paste Bloodstrike Missile. Blacksword Missiles S6/R48"/AP? ... Swarming, AirBurst Special Rule: Swarming, When Blacksword Missiles Are fired at an enemy flier., On a hit, Reroll to hit at a -1, if that hits reroll to hit a -2, (max 6 to hit). Roll until you miss. For each Hit ad +1 Strength to the Missile. Start at AP3 for each addition Hit, AP is decreased by 1 to a maximum AP1. Special Rule: Airburst, When Fired at a Ground Target, the Missile explodes above the target, creating D3+1 small blast templates. Templates are str6/AP3. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ozybonza Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 I think that with the Nephelim and LS Vengeance, we need to keep any change small and uncomplicated to have a chance of having it implemented.For these reasons, I think that "replace Missile Lock with Armourbane" for Nephelim and "Increase range to 36" for the LSV are both realistic and beneficial enough to make these units non-useless (but still not great). Your "Heat detector" idea is cool, but I really don't think that such an in-depth rule belongs in an FAQ or Errata - they need to be simple, hence why I think "add Armourbane" is the way to go.I personally thing the LSV needs a complete re-work to make it viable, but that won't happen. At least Armourbane would make the Nephelim somewhat useful in what is supposed to be its role (killing flyers).BTW - I emailed GW yesterday about the DW sergeant issue (I hadn't seen this thread yet). We'll see if I get a non-automated response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 LSV... needs twin-linked... at least then the odds of glancing to death are less. But thinking now... do you roll 3 gets hot or just one when firing burst mode? It is one weapon, just with a Heavy 3 profile. The rule says for blast weapons roll gets hot! to see if it fires. Do not recall roll for each shot... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 If you use PSB of the LSV on "rapid dire" mode you roll 3 to hit dices so you can glance yourself to Death in a single shooting phase... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Landrain Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 If you use PSB of the LSV on "rapid dire" mode you roll 3 to hit dices so you can glance yourself to Death in a single shooting phase...Where does it say that in rulebook? Not disbelieving, but never actually seen it stated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Sheol Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 You get a "Gets Hot" damage for each 1 you roll... 3 dices are 3 potenti al glancing damages... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 @ all : please keep in mind that this list must NOT turn into a wishlist. The main point is to bring light on the points that the recent FAQ forgot to resolve or even introduce. And if we may get little corrections on the nephilim then it's fine. I really fear that by asking for too many changes, GW take this initiative for a always-unhappy DA players rant and throw it to the trash. I think we must accept that LSV remain a weak choice of our codex. At least, GW still sell the kit for the shroud option... So even for business purpose, this may not be that interesting... For these reasons, I think that "replace Missile Lock with Armourbane" for Nephelim and "Increase range to 36" for the LSV are both realistic and beneficial enough to make these units non-useless (but still not great). Your "Heat detector" idea is cool, but I really don't think that such an in-depth rule belongs in an FAQ or Errata - they need to be simple, hence why I think "add Armourbane" is the way to go. I know what you mean and I agree. My only goal was to limit the effect of the bonus to flyers only as it s the main problem with our codex and we don't need more anti ground-tanks firepower. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Azrell Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Black sword missile = intercepter A quick rules fix that adds an interesting twist to flyer. Also being that its on the missiles and you can only fire 2 of them at a time, it will not effect your next shooting phase as you can just fire 2 of the other 6 you have. probably still needs a str or range increase to be worth 180pts but at least this would add something in the way of anti air to an anti air flyer that does nothing anti air. As for the deathwing... i was hoping for something more versatile like what space wolves have. but id settle for the sargents getting access to the ranged and/or CC wargear lists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chaplain Lucifer Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 I think the document first should focus on clarifications and in a distant second to any tweaks, incurring on the danger that it turns into a wish list and you have a bigger list of changes than clarifications. IMHO if its a community effort I think it would be best to agree on what is the item that needs changing the most (or that feels more underpowered/underperforming/disappointing) and agree on the change and as for the rest just clarifications. I feel it will capture more of GW's attention if you have a "Hey, I really need to know how this works" attitude than a "I think this would work best like this" attitude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Master Avoghai Posted April 26, 2013 Author Share Posted April 26, 2013 That´s exactly my thoughts. That's why I get rid of the LSV tweaks as we may always find people disagreeing on the changes suggested. I think that I'll also drop the hunter killer suggestion. After all we're all happy with our mace of redemption and I can live with a relic being useless. I'll replace it by the champion's blade suggestion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
plasmaspam Posted April 26, 2013 Share Posted April 26, 2013 Avoghai, Elphilo et al - I see the point, keep things minimal to try an get a result. Would you be happy submitting these then? - Blackswords - add "Armourbane" - DW Sgts - allow TH/SS or LC's - DW CML - allow Flakk @ 10pts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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