Clarifications/minor Changes request

[shabbadoo]

There is no 'assault terminator squad' (much more combat squad) in the DA codex.

It is called a turn of phrase that lets people know which combat squad we are talking about (one would think that was clear enough based on the discussion).

 

  Every loadout can carry a CML (I am sticking to CMLs in this arguement due to the 'assault' designation and the fact that the CML comes in addition to other gear not replacing). The fact that you can quarentees a use for vengeful strike in conjuction with split fire. Its simple really, if you want to pass on the option its not the fault of the rules or a mistaken cost/model ratio. The ability is there, its up to you to use it, if you want that is. So yeah it is awesome IMHO because it increases my chances to rip appart a transport and the next turn mutilate whats inside for example.

 

Given the fact that our heavy weapons can fire at different targets and under certain conditions, twinlinked at that, I believe that having combat squads (especially scoring terminators) would be too much and would increase the cost even further.

So, giving up 10 twin-linked stormbolter shots is no penalty at all apparently, let alone nearly half the squads not being able to do anything special due to not being able to DWA, and yet they pay for the ability.  And it is only one heavy weapon that can split fire, not both of them.   If you want to do something, you lose something that you had to pay for anyways.  When one hand gives and the other hand takes, it usually is considered a wash, not  an instance of "You should pay even more for just being able to do this."  Big picture here, guys.  Big picture.  Anyways, I'll leave off this discussion on this thread now so as not to draw away from the other pertinent stuff.

[Brother Immolator]

I noticed after a million hours that I had a DP. PLZ clean this one up.

[Brother Immolator]

 

 

There is no 'assault terminator squad' (much more combat squad) in the DA codex.

It is called a turn of phrase that lets people know which combat squad we are talking about (one would think that was clear enough based on the discussion).

I think you missed my point. Ill elaborate: I was referring to fact that we have a sinlge entry with the mix maxing ability on our weapons, therefore we have no dedicated or shooty CC squads.

 

 

>  Every loadout can carry a CML (I am sticking to CMLs in this arguement due to the 'assault' designation and the fact that the CML comes in addition to other gear not replacing). The fact that you can quarentees a use for vengeful strike in conjuction with split fire. Its simple really, if you want to pass on the option its not the fault of the rules or a mistaken cost/model ratio. The ability is there, its up to you to use it, if you want that is. So yeah it is awesome IMHO because it increases my chances to rip appart a transport and the next turn mutilate whats inside for example.

 

Given the fact that our heavy weapons can fire at different targets and under certain conditions, twinlinked at that, I believe that having combat squads (especially scoring terminators) would be too much and would increase the cost even further.

So, giving up 10 twin-linked stormbolter shots is no penalty at all apparently, let alone nearly half the squads not being top do anything special due to not being above the DWA, and yet they pay for the ability.  And it is only one heavy weapon that can split fire, not both of them.   If you want to do something, you lose something that you had to pay for anyways.  When one hand gives and the other hand takes, it usually considered a wash, not  an instance of "You should pay even more for just being able to do this."  Big picture here, guys.  Big picture.  Anyways, I'll leave off this discussion on this thread now so as not to draw away from the other pertinent stuff.

 

No its not because you were not having them in the first place in an 'assault squad'. You are not going to do anything, regardless if you have say 10 lightining claw terminators deepstrike. The very fact that you use the heavy weapon(s) and twinlinked at that, durring the deepstriking of a squad that all could do is wave its manicurred nails for a whole round is big bonus. Also Twin linked is been used for both weapons durring the deep strike regardless of split fire. Split fire is a second bonus completely irrelevant/different to the vengeance strike.I have a feeling that you are responding selectively in an attempt to save the arguement for the arguements shake and not overall effectiveness.

Bottom line is that you are judging the deathwing versus the mechanics of a vanilla terminators, which IMHO doesnt stand (more so) in this codex due to their special disposition.

Big picture indeed.

[Chaplain Lucifer]

Ok, everyone had it's OT time now.back to the original purpose of this thread...

[[TA]Typher]

I really think this thread should be split in two. One for clarifications of grey areas and the other for lobbying for whatever you want think you need.

 

Merging the two muddies the water for a lot of people. For me it's hard to get on board when I keep getting waylaid by unrelated arguments.

[WatchCaptainAzrael]

Typher" post="3369538" timestamp="1368377383"]

For me it's hard to get on board when I keep getting waylaid by unrelated arguments.

I know right?? Just the other day, I was minding my own business in this subforum when *BANG!*

 

A trio of gnarly-looking threads with hoods and clubs waylaid me! Oh, the unspeakable acts they performed!

 

This cannot be! The mods must tighten the noose upon what ought be done around here! In fact, I suggest blood samples be taken per post, affixed with a timestamp! On the vial, not the sample, they it would be a bloody blotch on a piece of paper!

[Brother Immolator]

Typher" post="3369538" timestamp="1368377383"]

For me it's hard to get on board when I keep getting waylaid by unrelated arguments.

I know right?? Just the other day, I was minding my own business in this subforum when *BANG!*

A trio of gnarly-looking threads with hoods and clubs waylaid me! Oh, the unspeakable acts they performed!

This cannot be! The mods must tighten the noose upon what ought be done around here! In fact, I suggest blood samples be taken per post, affixed with a timestamp! On the vial, not the sample, they it would be a bloody blotch on a piece of paper!

My heart bleeds for you on the abuse you suffered brother! Those threads must have been bribed by the fallen. Here btw take the blood sample, let not my bleeding go to waste

[[TA]Typher]

Typher" post="3369538" timestamp="1368377383"]

For me it's hard to get on board when I keep getting waylaid by unrelated arguments.

I know right?? Just the other day, I was minding my own business in this subforum when *BANG!*

 

A trio of gnarly-looking threads with hoods and clubs waylaid me! Oh, the unspeakable acts they performed!

 

This cannot be! The mods must tighten the noose upon what ought be done around here! In fact, I suggest blood samples be taken per post, affixed with a timestamp! On the vial, not the sample, they it would be a bloody blotch on a piece of paper!

 

....uh.. Really?

 

My point was constructive. Yours was.. Well it sounds snide to me.

 

Let me break it down to explain. If the topic is grey area, then I, along with other a majority of people can get behind that. On the other hand begging for abilities or skills is not something everyone agrees with.

 

Sure it would always be nice to have extra abilities, but it isn't necessary. However playing a game with a extremely vague rule that leads to arguing or hard feelings in a game is important.

[Biggabertha]

Hi there, really keen on getting some use out of both fliers - especially the Nephilim. While the Unrelenting Hunter rule is pretty unique and awesome, I do agree it's fairly "weak" with just a Twin Linked Lascannon to take out a flier (in two or three turns at that...).

 

Granted, asking for as little things as possible is a GOOD step forward to getting Games-Workshop to at least bend their ear to us, isn't there anything else they could do to make this unit more viable..? Armourbane's an awesome idea on the Blacksword Missiles (might be too overpowered/broken on the entire unit though...) but perhaps Rend would be better suited since you pretty much need to roll a 6 anyway in order to be able to dent most fliers. Then again... maybe not since it might be a little too good against the likes of Land Raiders etc. when it's really meant to be used against other fliers.

 

Maybe having a 0-2 or 0-3 squadron for them? At least then, they can potentially take out a flier per turn together then rather than just wounding it and hoping for a lucky explosion... (they're meant to be superior air fighters, right..? Why are Helldrakes the most powerful ones going..?)

 

 

Also, I'd really like to know exactly WHY the Ravenwing Command Squad is allowed up to five bikes while the Ravenwing Black Knights can have up to ten. Is this deliberate to stop us from having TOO many Ravenwing Grenade Launchers in one unit? (Bikes are sold in sets of three afterall..)

 

I'd also like to know why the Ravenwing Huntsmaster had lost the ability to equip any sort of power weapon and instead restricted to just a power sword and power maul. Similarly, this is really the same kind of problem that Deathwing Sergeants face... I'd really like to know exactly WHY this is. (Most likely in an attempt to stop having a psuedo Deathwing Knights Missile Launcher Squad...)

 

 

Finally, since this is something I'm really not too clear on; other than Flakk Missiles and the Nephilim Jetfighter, what other options are there for taking on fliers?

I know opting for Forgeworld (Contemptor) Mortis Dreadnought rules gives you the ability to shoot them down (making Mortis pattern Dreadnoughts SUPER good!) but won't there be anything like that for standard Games-Workshop rules..? Seems a huge shame to miss out on it just because some opponents do not accept Forgeworld rules nope, I'm not bitter about that at all, what're you talking about..? GET OFF OF MY BACK! (fliers are a real problem to consistently rely on Flakk Missiles (but I suppose that's what a Scout Squad (really annoying option since they don't have Split Fire), Tactical Squad or Devastator Squad (at least they have a Signum and multiple chances at destroying it in one attack (for a HUGE amount of points...))).

[Master Avoghai]

 

Also, I'd really like to know exactly WHY the Ravenwing Command Squad is allowed up to five bikes while the Ravenwing Black Knights can have up to ten. Is this deliberate to stop us from having TOO many Ravenwing Grenade Launchers in one unit? (Bikes are sold in sets of three afterall..)

 

 

For the same reason command squad in power armour are 5 whereas vets can be played until 10 and same thing for the termi command squad.

 

Command squads are supposed to represent extra-specialized and trustful soldiers... hence it's normal they're not numerous among a company.

 

Moreover gameswise, what would be the point for a vets, DW or RW command squad if you may take the same squad + bonus options as HQ choice?

 

 

I'd also like to know why the Ravenwing Huntsmaster had lost the ability to equip any sort of power weapon and instead restricted to just a power sword and power maul. Similarly, this is really the same kind of problem that Deathwing Sergeants face... I'd really like to know exactly WHY this is. (Most likely in an attempt to stop having a psuedo Deathwing Knights Missile Launcher Squad...)

For the Hunt Master, it's not a big loss since everyone equip the squad leaders with sword or maul anyway...

For the DW sgt, it's just a problem of clarification that leaded to another bug : people noticed that the wording prevented termis with TH/SS to be equiped with CML. Hence GW modified the wording to allow that but as a consequence, the new wording now prevents the sgt to swap the weapons. There's a question about that in the list.

 

 

Finally, since this is something I'm really not too clear on; other than Flakk Missiles and the Nephilim Jetfighter, what other options are there for taking on fliers?

I know opting for Forgeworld (Contemptor) Mortis Dreadnought rules gives you the ability to shoot them down (making Mortis pattern Dreadnoughts SUPER good!) but won't there be anything like that for standard Games-Workshop rules..? Seems a huge shame to miss out on it just because some opponents do not accept Forgeworld rules nope, I'm not bitter about that at all, what're you talking about..? GET OFF OF MY BACK! (fliers are a real problem to consistently rely on Flakk Missiles (but I suppose that's what a Scout Squad (really annoying option since they don't have Split Fire), Tactical Squad or Devastator Squad (at least they have a Signum and multiple chances at destroying it in one attack (for a HUGE amount of points...)))

 

Well I think the flyers are mostly a problem because the system is new and the introduction is progressive.

 

If you gets rid of the flyers, 6th ed is really a nice game system. Flaws are limited, game is fluid, you can play with lots of minis, IMO it's the nicest version... And I think GW knows that they reach a point where they needed to introduce something new because if they don't they won't have any reason to release new version of the game + a game that doesn't evolve is a dead game.

So they itroduced challenge, they made more room for psy powers and introduced the flyers. Problem is : when you introduce a new system IN the system, you create a new balance... That's what is happening. The solution to kill a flyer is IMO voluntary low for everyone so that the flyers may survive and people want to try it. Best example is a non flyer : LS Vengeance is too fragile and few people play it. Imagine what would happen if flyers could be killed that easily. 

 

So yes solutions against flyers IN GENERAL are weak + some may be redone when the new codex will be released (Storm Raven, vendetta/valkyrie...) and I think we won't have a good balance during 6th ed concerning flyers. GW has to gather informations, create new rules to re-balance the whole system, it will take an entire edition to do so.

[shortysl]

I would presume that the Huntmaster's weapon options are due to fluff; the Black Knights are a throwback to Calibanite Orders. It's already been established that lances were impractical on Caliban, which may explain why Power Lances are not an option for the Huntmaster, and one could argue that swords and mauls are the more 'traditional' weapons Average Joe might think of when considering the kinds of weapons a mounted knight would be armed with (hence the lack of a Power Axe or Power Fist option).

 

Also, the Ravenwing are all about rapidity and agility; wielding weapons that have the Unwieldy special rule feels kind of wrong in my opinion.

[Xyon]

I think the list of FAQ clarifications is pretty good as it is,  do we have a person at GW to send it do? Can we get it sent all ready?  I do have one little tweak, I just think a slightly better example of 'upgrade order' is a DWCS terminator getting TH/SS, and then becoming championg and swapping TH for the blade of caliban but keeping the 'not weapon' SS. But that's probably because its just the one thing I want to see if we can do, hehe.

[elphilo]

I think the list of FAQ clarifications is pretty good as it is, do we have a person at GW to send it do? Can we get it sent all ready? I do have one little tweak, I just think a slightly better example of 'upgrade order' is a DWCS terminator getting TH/SS, and then becoming championg and swapping TH for the blade of caliban but keeping the 'not weapon' SS. But that's probably because its just the one thing I want to see if we can do, hehe.

Yep, you can send in the list to Gamefaqs@gwplc.com

As this is a group effort the idea was to "spam" the Dev team with this list to see if that would grab their attention.

[Xyon]

Ok, I copied the list and sent to the email, I suggest other people do who have not, the time for action!

[Brother Immolator]

 

Typher" post="3369538" timestamp="1368377383"]

For me it's hard to get on board when I keep getting waylaid by unrelated arguments.

I know right?? Just the other day, I was minding my own business in this subforum when *BANG!*

 

A trio of gnarly-looking threads with hoods and clubs waylaid me! Oh, the unspeakable acts they performed!

 

This cannot be! The mods must tighten the noose upon what ought be done around here! In fact, I suggest blood samples be taken per post, affixed with a timestamp! On the vial, not the sample, they it would be a bloody blotch on a piece of paper!

 

....uh.. Really?

 

My point was constructive. Yours was.. Well it sounds snide to me.

 

Let me break it down to explain. If the topic is grey area, then I, along with other a majority of people can get behind that. On the other hand begging for abilities or skills is not something everyone agrees with.

 

Sure it would always be nice to have extra abilities, but it isn't necessary. However playing a game with a extremely vague rule that leads to arguing or hard feelings in a game is important.

If I may intervene, I can tell you from personal experience he was not snide at all. He just like me has a bit of...how to phrase this? Strange angle at humour? Does that make sense?

[Biggabertha]

Ahh, thanks for the replies - I didn't mean to say that I had problems with the actual number being 5 or 10 heads in the Ravenwing Command Squad or Ravenwing Black Knights Squad respectively, I understand and realise that it's for the continuity of the codex (mostly...) - it's the fact that they're not rounded.

 

For example, Ravenwing Attack Squad has six bikes, one attack bike and a landspeeder as the maximum loadout - granted, that's 10 heads right there but the options are completely filled out with no gaps. The Ravenwing Command Squad can only take ONE Grenade Launcher - if there was six bikers though, it's likely that you could've take two Grenade Launchers. Same with the Ravenwing Black Knights - they gave us up to 10 in a squad - why didn't they stop at 9? What's more infuriating is how the points just don't round up nicely either - anyone who's bought the extra bikers in the Ravenwing Attack Squad are probably mildly annoyed at being 1 point over or 4 points under. You can't even buy anything to fill in those gaps at all.

 

Yeah, basically, I wanted a Lance on my Huntsmaster - you'd think that even though it WAS impractical to use a lance in that situation, it'd require tremendous skill to be able to wield one. Granted, for game purposes, it's so much better going with the Sword or Maul but cavalry almost always favours a long weapon - a lance, spear or halberd to joust with and such, you know..?

But I can totally understand about the Power Fist - I wasn't after one of those, it'd've just made it nicer to have it that way rather than have such a restriction but I'm sure we've all been down that road before, lol

 

 

Figures about the Deathwing Terminator rule... I didn't think it'd be poor wording like that (coming from Magic: The Gathering, where wording is pretty much king there... I thought all games would be as stringent as they are on it - but I've been wrong before... (Yu-Gi-Oh! especially...))

 

 

Yeah, I figured as much for the fliers - it's a pain but I guess we'll have to cope with it for the time being. At least as Dark Angels, we HAVE Fliers... those poor Black Templars and Space Wolves...

[Master Avoghai]

Ahh, thanks for the replies - I didn't mean to say that I had problems with the actual number being 5 or 10 heads in the Ravenwing Command Squad or Ravenwing Black Knights Squad respectively, I understand and realise that it's for the continuity of the codex (mostly...) - it's the fact that they're not rounded.

For example, Ravenwing Attack Squad has six bikes, one attack bike and a landspeeder as the maximum loadout - granted, that's 10 heads right there but the options are completely filled out with no gaps. The Ravenwing Command Squad can only take ONE Grenade Launcher - if there was six bikers though, it's likely that you could've take two Grenade Launchers. Same with the Ravenwing Black Knights - they gave us up to 10 in a squad - why didn't they stop at 9? What's more infuriating is how the points just don't round up nicely either - anyone who's bought the extra bikers in the Ravenwing Attack Squad are probably mildly annoyed at being 1 point over or 4 points under. You can't even buy anything to fill in those gaps at all.

Yeah but half of 5 is 2,5 so... There's absolutly no solution for that...

GW could have said 1 GL for 5 bikers but it may have forced players to use squadrons of 5 to play 2 GL so it wouldn't have occured and wouldn't have been balanced...

And also don't forget the boxset : 3 bikes/ box set so one GL/ box set...

Yeah, basically, I wanted a Lance on my Huntsmaster - you'd think that even though it WAS impractical to use a lance in that situation, it'd require tremendous skill to be able to wield one. Granted, for game purposes, it's so much better going with the Sword or Maul but cavalry almost always favours a long weapon - a lance, spear or halberd to joust with and such, you know..?

But I can totally understand about the Power Fist - I wasn't after one of those, it'd've just made it nicer to have it that way rather than have such a restriction but I'm sure we've all been down that road before, lol

I really don't know what everybody has with the power lance. This options has never existed, is not evocated in a line in the fluff, even FW didn't create the model and regularly I see people claiming for a hunt master with a lance...

Figures about the Deathwing Terminator rule... I didn't think it'd be poor wording like that (coming from Magic: The Gathering, where wording is pretty much king there... I thought all games would be as stringent as they are on it - but I've been wrong before... (Yu-Gi-Oh! especially...))

Don't forget that it's only v6 for 40k... much more for Magic (so they may have corrected all the bugs) + Magic doesn't have the problem of line of sight, model movement, buildings zone of terrains and so many weapons options in more than 15 armies... This always create situations of game that may cause problem. So when you must create a rule you must keep that in mind AND make a rule easy to understand...

We must admit that GW has REALLY improved in the last codexes...

[Biggabertha]

I understand completely - but it still doesn't stop me from wanting it to be so, lol. Two Grenade Launchers in a squad of five might be a little too good since then it more or less eliminates the need for having a Black Knights Squad (or fielding an extra one with a LOT of bang for their buck).

 

Really..? You have no idea why a BLACK KNIGHT can't have a lance..? Fluff or not, that was more or less the FIRST thing that popped into mind for me when I saw the option for a Huntsmaster in the Codex and I had to quickly check on the available options on making a Power Weapon into a Spear, Lance or even Halberd just so I could have an awesome looking (and legit) model!

 

 

Yeah, I forget about that. Even though they're roughly the same age, Magic is both simple and complex while Warhammer 40,000 is anything but simple.

And yeah, you're right - coming from seeing how BUSTED some combinations can be throughout the codexes across the editions (Chaos Lash combo, Cypher's ridiculous saving throw for instance...).

 

Still, here's hoping Games-Workshp listens to these questions...

[Master Avoghai]

 

Really..? You have no idea why a BLACK KNIGHT can't have a lance..? Fluff or not, that was more or less the FIRST thing that popped into mind for me when I saw the option for a Huntsmaster in the Codex and I had to quickly check on the available options on making a Power Weapon into a Spear, Lance or even Halberd just so I could have an awesome looking (and legit) model!

 

No... to me DA are more monkish fighters with a medieval taint but lance are more something I see for White scars for exemple.

 

And don't forget the lance wasn't used that much on the battle field, it was more a "special event" weapon that knights used in tournaments... In fight they used swords, mace, flails, hammers because a lance used to break easily and was more easier to avoid.

[notmattlythgoe]

 

 

Really..? You have no idea why a BLACK KNIGHT can't have a lance..? Fluff or not, that was more or less the FIRST thing that popped into mind for me when I saw the option for a Huntsmaster in the Codex and I had to quickly check on the available options on making a Power Weapon into a Spear, Lance or even Halberd just so I could have an awesome looking (and legit) model!

 

No... to me DA are more monkish fighters with a medieval taint but lance are more something I see for White scars for exemple.

 

And don't forget the lance wasn't used that much on the battle field, it was more a "special event" weapon that knights used in tournaments... In fight they used swords, mace, flails, hammers because a lance used to break easily and was more easier to avoid.

 

Actually, they were widely used on the battlefield, and were not prone to break. The ones that were used in jousts and broke were designed to break.

[Aegnor]

The Emperor's Champion made the very good suggestion in a thread in Amicus Aedes that you should be able to take Whirlwinds in squadrons of up to 3. As it stands, its always an afterthought as a nice way to spend 60-odd points, but suffers competing for a HS slot versus Devs, Preds and LRs.

 

Wouldn't be OP'd but would provide another viable option, and from GW's perspective would encourage sales of Whirlwinds and possibly other HS items.

[Master Avoghai]

Ok guys just to know if some of you have received a reply (other than the automatic one)

 

I didn't and there was no other update than the eldar one.

 

It may be time to re-activate it and maybe some of us who didn't participate to this lobbying may do so now.

 

I have added a question concerning salvo weapon and counter charge as I see the question raising more and more often without a clear answer.

 

Standard of devastation/salvo weapons : if I move during my turn to be in range from a standard of devastation, I will shoot only 2 times at 12" with my bolters during my turn. But if, during its following turn, my opponent charge this squad, what profile should I use for my counter charge shoot? More generally, how work the salvo weapons with this kind of feature?

[facmanpob]

I have a somewhat sarcastic question based on the fact that they updated the digital codex at the weekend, 2 months after the last FAQ was released, and the digital codex is still not completely up to date with the FAQ. My question is, simply: WHY NOT?

 

/rant

[elphilo]

Well the Eldar update is the initial FAQ that fixes misspellings and forgotten descriptors in the initial printing. So hopefully the FAQs will be released next month or so :)
 

Also I did not get any response as well and I doubt any of us will :(