The metaphysics of daemonic ascension

[Dammeron]

WARNING: This thread will assume that you've read books such as Betrayer, A Thousand Sons and Angel Exterminatus. Spoilers aplenty!

 

 

 

 

Now, with that out of the way, we've thus far seen the ascension of three of the Primarchs to full fledged daemonhood; Magnus the Red, Fulgrim and Angron. What's interesting is the manner in which their transformations take place, as it seems that the mechanisms for becoming a Daemon Prince, whilst sharing certain common elements, are extremely varied in terms of detail. 

 

Magnus, for example, is converted at the point of extremis; when all has been lost to him, and he's essentially given up, having been bested by an intelligence beyond his comprehension. He almost has no conscious say in the matter at all. Though, unlike Fulgrim and Angron, we do not see the actual process of his transformation, it is interesting to note that this most self willed of Primarchs is ultimately transformed when all will and volition have been stripped from him, by hands other than his own: there isn't any conscious worship of The Great Conspirator on his part at the point of transformation; he doesn't even know entirely the nature of the entity he is making his pact with. He does it as a matter of extremis; to save what little he can of the empire he has built and the knowledge he has accrued. 

 

This says something about both the nature of Tzeentch, in that his various puppets and vassals are not necessarily those who consciously worship him, but those who retain some semblance of purpose and volition, whether it be political, metaphysical or otherwise ideological in nature. 

 

In stark contrast to this, we have the ascension of Fulgrim. Fulgrim, like Lorgar, undergoes something of a metaphysical revelation as a result of his experiences with the daemon that temporarily inhabits his body, discovering truths about the universe and his general condition that he has otherwise been denied. Through the Chaos power Slaanesh, he finds a means of transcendence through transgression, and sets about consciously orchestrating his own ascendancy via initiating certain events. Throughout this process, Fulgrim is entirely conscious of what he is doing and how he is going about it, and also seems to be entirely conscious of the nature of the entity he serves. Again, this is in contrast to Magnus, who is ignorant right up to the point of his transformation, and has no say in how it manifests. Interestingly, Fulgrim's apotheosis has a great deal in common with Angron's, in that he deliberately brings about a situation whereby a great deal of metaphorical and symbolic potential is brought to focus on him as an individual, drawing in turn the raw energy of the Warp, which allows him to translate from an entity of matter to one of metaphor. It seems that the manifold perversities he encourages amongst his sons; the utter abandon of the Emperor's Children and their followers, is what ultimately brings the Slaaneshi portion of the Warp to bear on Fulgrim himself, allowing him to utilise it to alter himself according to some abstract ideal. To what extent the Chaos Power Slaanesh plays a conscious part in this is unexplored, as it seems from what is described that Fulgrim draws the energy of the Warp tom himself and orchestrates his own transformation without a great deal of conscious input from Slaanesh. 

 

This has certain parallels with Angron's transformation, in that he becomes the focus of a particular concentration of Warp energy, orchestrated and directed by Lorgar, which happens to be Khornate in nature simply because of the acts that originally foment and attract it (i.e. wanton bloodshed, butchery, warfare etc). Angron himself is not only entirely unconscious of the impending transformation; he has no notion of what the Warp or indeed Khorne himself are; he makes no conscious pact, but becomes a Daemon Prince against his own volition, under Lorgar's subtle manipulations and direction of the Warp itself. Lorgar seems to be attuned to the Warp in a similar manner as Magnus, in that he "hears" its various chords and strains as a kind of music that he is able to orchestrate, to a degree. 

 

It will be very interesting to see how Mortarion, Lorgar and, ultimately, Perturabo, end up ascending; the latter in particular, since he regards Fulgrim's apotheosis with such incredible horror. 

[randian]

Lorgar's claim that he masterminded Angron's ascension to benefit Angron seems hollow to me. I think he did it to benefit himself, altruism being antithetical to Chaos. Lorgar got a big powerup out of it. His proclamations that he doesn't trust the Chaos Gods seem nothing but a self-serving sham.

 

Lorgar delivered an eternal slave to Khorne, a state the old Angron would have rejected if given the choice. The new Angron doesn't even realize how he got screwed over by Lorgar. In his newly corrupt state he just wants skulls and sadly cannot see the irony of his position. I wonder, though, how Angron can stay in the Materium to keep killing for Lorgar.

[Carach]

i believe lorgar will be the last of the traitor primarchs to ascend (of those that arent killed) as he sees himself akin to a shepherd. may well be some more manipulating on his part to get the likes of perturabo to ascend. Thus he will receive the prize at a time of his own choosing, for all that he has done for chaos (which is rather a lot). As, with his knowledge after istvaan (his 'transformation'), i'd see no reason why he could not already have achieved daemonhood. Has to be his own volition. 

 

Mortarion i thought has been covered by the old fluff? as lorgar was manipulated by his own, so was Mortarion by the likes of Typhus. Trapping them all in the warp and ultimately breaking the primarch, thus he ultimately begs for release and that results in a 'merciful' daemonhood for the chap.

[Aegnor]

I could see some, like Perterabo, only ascending to daemonhood after they flee into the Eye of Terror.

[Dammeron]

I could see some, like Perterabo, only ascending to daemonhood after they flee into the Eye of Terror.

 

The broad outline of Perturabo's ascension to daemonhood is outlined in the Iron Warriors IA article: he lures the Imperial Fists into a meatgrinder of a siege war within a vast labyrinth of siege works, trenches and fortresses known as the Iorn Cage. He ascends after the Iron Warriors systematically decimate a significant percentage of Dorn's remaining forces, ritualistically desecrating their gene seed. They then flee into the Eye of Terror with the remaining legions.

 

What interests me is what makes Perturabo have such a profound change of heart: upon witnessing Fulgrim's apotheosis, he is appalled almost beyond words, yet through the Iron Cage campaign, he actively courts daemonhood. My guess is that he sees the status as a means of exacting a protracted campaign against the Imperium: much as he might lament the condition, one thing daemons have is time. Lots and lots and lots of time. I imagine that's how his deal with the powers of chaos manifests: "You give me immortality, and thus the time required to exact my revenge, and I'll send you every soul I harvest."

[Dammeron]

i believe lorgar will be the last of the traitor primarchs to ascend (of those that arent killed) as he sees himself akin to a shepherd. may well be some more manipulating on his part to get the likes of perturabo to ascend. Thus he will receive the prize at a time of his own choosing, for all that he has done for chaos (which is rather a lot). As, with his knowledge after istvaan (his 'transformation'), i'd see no reason why he could not already have achieved daemonhood. Has to be his own volition. 

 

Mortarion i thought has been covered by the old fluff? as lorgar was manipulated by his own, so was Mortarion by the likes of Typhus. Trapping them all in the warp and ultimately breaking the primarch, thus he ultimately begs for release and that results in a 'merciful' daemonhood for the chap.

 

One thing we do know from the Word Bearers IA article is that Lorgar's ascension is a thing of incredible celebration: there is some throw away line about the birthing cries of Lorgar following his ascension echoing throughout the Warp and beyond. Considering that he actively joins the pantheon of immortals, effectively becoming a demi-god in his own right, it's hardly surprising he'd be so pleased.

[Dammeron]

i believe lorgar will be the last of the traitor primarchs to ascend (of those that arent killed) as he sees himself akin to a shepherd. may well be some more manipulating on his part to get the likes of perturabo to ascend. Thus he will receive the prize at a time of his own choosing, for all that he has done for chaos (which is rather a lot). As, with his knowledge after istvaan (his 'transformation'), i'd see no reason why he could not already have achieved daemonhood. Has to be his own volition. 

 

Mortarion i thought has been covered by the old fluff? as lorgar was manipulated by his own, so was Mortarion by the likes of Typhus. Trapping them all in the warp and ultimately breaking the primarch, thus he ultimately begs for release and that results in a 'merciful' daemonhood for the chap.

 

We do have the broad outline of Mortarion's ascension, but we don't have anything detailed concerning the period the Death Guard are marooned in the Warp, or the specific circumstances of the Destroyer Plague ravaging their fleet. Given that time is largely meaningless within the Warp, they could languish in the condition for years or decades from ther own perspectives before they finally emerge into real space again.

 

I think it would make a fascinating subject for a novel, or at least a short story, exploring Mortarion's reaction to being so debilitated: imagine, an entity that knows no sickness; nothing like infirmity; who has spent several human lifetimes building up his resilience and resistance to everything from disease to mortal wounds, ony to be laid low, gradually eroded by this most hideous of maladies. The story of Mortarion's psychological reaction would be fascinating in and of itself.

[Vesper]

 

I could see some, like Perterabo, only ascending to daemonhood after they flee into the Eye of Terror.

 

The broad outline of Perturabo's ascension to daemonhood is outlined in the Iron Warriors IA article: he lures the Imperial Fists into a meatgrinder of a siege war within a vast labyrinth of siege works, trenches and fortresses known as the Iorn Cage. He ascends after the Iron Warriors systematically decimate a significant percentage of Dorn's remaining forces, ritualistically desecrating their gene seed. They then flee into the Eye of Terror with the remaining legions.

 

What interests me is what makes Perturabo have such a profound change of heart: upon witnessing Fulgrim's apotheosis, he is appalled almost beyond words, yet through the Iron Cage campaign, he actively courts daemonhood.

Remember what came to Perturabo's mind when he witnessed Fulgrim's ascension ? That the only person he'll ever trust would be Horus. And Horus will die.

Perturabo is the most loyal Primarch on the Chaos side, the death of his closest brother will most likely be a heavy blow to what's left of Perturabo.

[Kol Saresk]

randian, on 26 Apr 2013 - 03:36, said:

Lorgar's claim that he masterminded Angron's ascension to benefit Angron seems hollow to me. I think he did it to benefit himself, altruism being antithetical to Chaos. Lorgar got a big powerup out of it. His proclamations that he doesn't trust the Chaos Gods seem nothing but a self-serving sham.

 

Lorgar delivered an eternal slave to Khorne, a state the old Angron would have rejected if given the choice. The new Angron doesn't even realize how he got screwed over by Lorgar. In his newly corrupt state he just wants skulls and sadly cannot see the irony of his position. I wonder, though, how Angron can stay in the Materium to keep killing for Lorgar.

"The road to damnation is paved with good intentions."

[Xin Ceithan]

I actually liked the idea that Lorgar eases the way for Angron`s tranformation because he cares for him. Especially after reading Betrayer I got the impression that Lorgar`s aims were more on the "merging" of chaos and mankind than along the line of downtrodden worship. At least that`s what I took from his conversation with Magnus in Betrayer, where they both argue that Erebus and Kor Phareon (sp?) on his side and Ahriman on Magnus side have left the paths of their primarchs already. I would also like to point out the scene in Betrayer were Lorgar is described as genuinly surprised to see that Papa Smurf didn`t really hate him before the heresy. That seems more along the line of deeply ( too deeply) caring sibling than a cold manipulator. And Butcher`s Nails carried that theme already, that Lorgar was caring about the impending doom of Angron and searching for a way to help him. ANY way to help him.

If it serves his aims, all the better.

And maybe Lorgar is able to this because he is already on the way on the way of ascension at this point? He healed up from a titan`s attack before that....that seems quite a bit extraordinary even for a primarch.

As for Angron being able to exists after the transformation in the material universe..the whole point of the shadow crusade was to create a warpstorm big enough to keep Ultramar from interfering and Angron`s transformation is at the birthing of that storm (the birth of the storm?). So there should be enough Warp Stuff around to keep him going for a while.

[Aegnor]

Yeah, I liked the threads of humanity and almost decency running through Lorgar in Betrayer. If nothing else, he is sincere in his beliefs.

 

Also love that he no longer takes crap from Erebus, Magnus, and even Horus.

[depthcharge12]

Yeah, I liked the threads of humanity and almost decency running through Lorgar in Betrayer. If nothing else, he is sincere in his beliefs.

Also love that he no longer takes crap from Erebus, Magnus, and even Horus.

Hey, wearing the face of the First chaplain on your armor is quite in fashion around the heresy. Fulgrim would find it titillating (pun intended here ;) looking at you slaanesh!)

 

Anyway...have you played Space Marine? It's interesting watching Nemeroth ascend to Daemonhood...then beating his face in like an angry marine....

[hobointherain]

everyone loves a good face beating!

 

I'm quite interested to see how Lorgar and Perturabo ascend. Visually, its easy, or perhaps easier, to imagine Magnus, Angron, Fulgrim and Mortarion as daemon princes because the four Gods have such a strong aesthetic identity. Eg. Angron is big, red and, well, angry. Mortarion is a bit green a gribbly etc... So I'm interested to see how the "undivided" primarchs are portrayed. 

On another level I'm interested in the inner workings of Lorgar and Perturabo's ascension, purely because they are not aligned to any god in particular. Do the gods all buddy together for a meeting and say, "Yeh this Lorgar guy seems pretty reliable, PROMOTION!" Or is it more a case of Lorgar drawing enough warp energy into himself that he finally reaches level 56 and evolves into his final form?

[Dammeron]

everyone loves a good face beating!

 

I'm quite interested to see how Lorgar and Perturabo ascend. Visually, its easy, or perhaps easier, to imagine Magnus, Angron, Fulgrim and Mortarion as daemon princes because the four Gods have such a strong aesthetic identity. Eg. Angron is big, red and, well, angry. Mortarion is a bit green a gribbly etc... So I'm interested to see how the "undivided" primarchs are portrayed. 

 

On another level I'm interested in the inner workings of Lorgar and Perturabo's ascension, purely because they are not aligned to any god in particular. Do the gods all buddy together for a meeting and say, "Yeh this Lorgar guy seems pretty reliable, PROMOTION!" Or is it more a case of Lorgar drawing enough warp energy into himself that he finally reaches level 56 and evolves into his final form?

 

I think the latter is most likely; given how aptly he manipulates the currents and rhythms of the Warp, my guess is he will wait until he has fulfilled all he feels he has to according to the grand scheme of the "Gods," then finally ascend once he reaches Sicarius by making himself a focal point of Warp energy as he did with Angron. 

[Raven Angel]

There's a problem in that the game has redressed the fluff so there are no unaligned Deamon Princes anymore. They have to take a mark of one of the 4. it makes the undivided primarchs problematic at best.

[Kol Saresk]

Well to be fair, no one is "unaligned", not even Abaddon. Undivided pretty much means "aligned to more than one" which isn't exactly a new concept since Abaddon's Mark has always been a Mark fashioned from all four being combined together, at least since 4th edition. So it probably ends up that the God who has the most to gain from them becoming a daemon prince is the one who backs the ascension. A warrior probably is backed by Khorne.

 

EDIT: A sorcerer is probably aligned by Tzeentch, a twisted Apothecary by Nurgle or Slaanesh and so on, so forth.

[MordentHex]

 

Well to be fair, no one is "unaligned", not even Abaddon. Undivided pretty much means "aligned to more than one" which isn't exactly a new concept since Abaddon's Mark has always been a Mark fashioned from all four being combined together, at least since 4th edition. So it probably ends up that the God who has the most to gain from them becoming a daemon prince is the one who backs the ascension. A warrior probably is backed by Khorne.

EDIT: A sorcerer is probably aligned by Tzeentch, a twisted Apothecary by Nurgle or Slaanesh and so on, so forth.

Sense Second Edition actually :) 

From what i remembered, a mark of undivided meant that they worshipped each god equally and hence benefited from the protection of each god but also the scrutiny of each god which isn't so great OR worshiped no gods in any real sense except kind of like as a benefactor or lucky charm. Read Fire Warrior.  Not the best of books but it can give you an idea of how that works especially if its interrupted. lol  People can be sponsored by Demon Princes too.

[Kol Saresk]

So that would mean that Undivided never meant unaligned, but merely aligned to more than one God/Warp Power/Daemon Prince. So if it's that old then I wonder why so many of the more veteran players have such problems with it when it comes to representing Marks in the Undivided Legions.

[Raven Angel]

Undivided as I always understood it meant worshiping them as a pantheon which prevent them from becoming corrupted in the more destructive manners that had obviously afflicted the 4 cult Legions. There used to be more advantages and disadvantages to being a dedicated force. I was more flavorful. 4thed ruined all that and 6th ed book furthered it. I personally don't like this aspect of the Chaos Marine evolution. It makes them more generic.

[Kol Saresk]

How so?

[Raven Angel]

The best examples of this come from the old 3.5 Chaos dex. In that codex dedicating you warlord had a massive effect on the units you could take from the army list and you could only take the mark that god on your troops and tanks. You also had unique armories for each god. Only and undivided warlord could use all the different units in the dex. It wasn't perfect but it had a lot of variety and gave a lot of flavor to the dedicated forces. I think to that dex did a lot better at letting you do Vets of the Long war or fresher renegades. only the 2nd ed dex did a better job on renegades as you cold actually use units straight from the SM dex (codex Ultramaines) too.

 

The current dex is in my mind focused more on mixing all the gods and units together much in the way the old Deamon dex did. It is not a bad dex but neither is it really a comprehensive dex for Chaos Marine forces either. In truth the 6th ed dex is really just the undivided builds for the Old Legions and pays very little real effort to giving the same attention to mono god build or truly flavorful renegades from the later chapters.

[randian]

I actually liked the idea that Lorgar eases the way for Angron`s tranformation because he cares for him. Especially after reading Betrayer I got the impression that Lorgar`s aims were more on the "merging" of chaos and mankind than along the line of downtrodden worship.

That's just Lorgar being willfully blind. The Word Bearers quickly abandoned Lorgar's ideal, perhaps as soon as he ascended and could no longer control them.  Downtrodden and debased is the only thing mortals under Word Bearer control ever get.

[Azarias]

 

It will be very interesting to see how Mortarion, Lorgar and, ultimately, Perturabo, end up ascending; the latter in particular, since he regards Fulgrim's apotheosis with such incredible horror. 

 

Because I tend to view the Horus Heresy series in aesthetic, rather than simply narrative, terms, I'm going to assume that the apotheoses will reflect the different thematic ideas present in each portrayal. By itself, narrative tends to bore me – plot for plot's sake is simply one-dimensional, no matter how interesting the story might be. I find it much more engaging when the narrative is elaborated by way of aesthetic development. As an example of this, we can compare Battle for the Abyss and, say, The Emperor's Gift: the former is one-dimensional, lackluster narrative, while the latter is a fantastic instance of moral examination garbed in power armor.

 

So, when it comes to the Heresy Series, I focus on the more literary details and themes, which, when best presented, tend to be yoked to individual characters. You put it nicely when you describe Fulgrim's ascendancy as "transcendence through transgression." His rise is marked by a series of violations and depravities: aesthetic, sensual, and, finally, spiritual. Just as his pursuit of artistic pleasure becomes disturbingly hyperbolic, his final act of transgression (his attempted sacrifice of Perturabo) is deeply immoral as it violates the unspoken, insubstantial bonds of brotherhood. Angron's ascent is similar: he is a character who lacks any real agency. He is forced into a leadership role against his will; on the battlefield, the Butcher's Nails remove any semblance of will from his martial abilities, turning him into a feral, bloodthirsty thing; even the one instance of choice on his part – his rebellion on Desh'ea – has been lost to him, as its meaning and history – in essence, his legacy – is defined by others. It's then a fantastic bit of irony that Lorgar is mimicing the Emperor, as both of them redefine poor Angron according to their own standards. At the same time, his Daemonhood is an apotheosis of Angron's life as the Red Angel: he is of the red right hand, and yet finds a serenity in that role (see the scene with Angron in The Emperor's Gift, where he's described as a possessing the serenity of boundless rage).

 

It's my hope that each ascendancy will follow a similar pattern: they'll be the thematic apotheosis of each character's narrative and thematic arc. Perturabo's will be incredibly different from Lorgar's, as the former retreats into a paranoid solipsism, while the other continues to become the dark glory that he was meant to be. 

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I actually liked the idea that Lorgar eases the way for Angron`s tranformation because he cares for him. Especially after reading Betrayer I got the impression that Lorgar`s aims were more on the "merging" of chaos and mankind than along the line of downtrodden worship.

That's just Lorgar being willfully blind. The Word Bearers quickly abandoned Lorgar's ideal, perhaps as soon as he ascended and could no longer control them. Downtrodden and debased is the only thing mortals under Word Bearer control ever get.

actually everything is pointin to them leaving Lorgar's ideals as early as Calth, if not earlier.

[randian]

 

 

At the same time, his Daemonhood is an apotheosis of Angron's life as the Red Angel: he is of the red right hand, and yet finds a serenity in that role (see the scene with Angron in The Emperor's Gift, where he's described as a possessing the serenity of boundless rage).

Which is, essentially, the negation of thought, the serenity of personal annihilation. The tragedy is that Angron wanted that only to escape the pain of the Nails, not as an abstractly desirable state of being.