The metaphysics of daemonic ascension

[Kol Saresk]

But who says he is suffering from the Nails? If I listened to Butcher's Nails right, it seems that only when he wasn't giving in to the Nails he was in pain and when he was in a state where the Nails sang the loudest, he actually found something resembling peace. So if he's in a perpetual state of pure rage and bloodlust that the Nails entice an provided they still worked after his ascension, he would actually be at peace because he is no longer fighting them. He is exactly what the Nails drove him to become.

[randian]

 

 

 

I actually liked the idea that Lorgar eases the way for Angron`s tranformation because he cares for him. Especially after reading Betrayer I got the impression that Lorgar`s aims were more on the "merging" of chaos and mankind than along the line of downtrodden worship.

That's just Lorgar being willfully blind. The Word Bearers quickly abandoned Lorgar's ideal, perhaps as soon as he ascended and could no longer control them. Downtrodden and debased is the only thing mortals under Word Bearer control ever get.

actually everything is pointin to them leaving Lorgar's ideals as early as Calth, if not earlier.

Which Lorgar seems not to have disciplined them for. Either Lorgar never really believed in that ideal, or his increasing corruption led him to abandon it.

 

Lorgar admonished somebody (can't recall who) that the Gods wanted symbiosis. If Lorgar really didn't trust the Gods like he says, he should have abandoned them once it was clear that symbiosis was never in the cards (which should have been early on, for a being of Primarch intelligence).

[randian]

But who says he is suffering from the Nails?

They cause pain when you don't submit, and they're slowly killing him, whether he submits or not. Sounds like perpetual pain to me. Of course, now that he's a daemon he doesn't need rest or sleep. If Angron had controlled his own ascension like Fulgrim did I might argue that Angron's appearance is just as he wanted it to be, and that the Nails exist (and possibly even function) on his daemonic "body" as part of his sick and twisted self-image. Since he didn't, I'd chalk up the appearance (and possibility of function) of the Nails as a matter of Khorne's whimsy.

[Kol Saresk]

On the point of Lorgar, according to Betrayer, Calth was that punishment. Lorgar did not expect anyone to survive. Granted, he wasn't surprised that Erebus survived but he was expecting his death.

 

On the note of Angron, fair enough.

[MordentHex]

Lorgar in a nuttshell: The path to hell is paved by good intentions.  He meant well, He was wrong, but he meant well.  He thought he was a good man, loved and hated just like the rest of them, but in the end he is still as much a monster for the things he has done as any of the other primarchs.

[GhostMalone]

 

 

 

 

 

 

I actually liked the idea that Lorgar eases the way for Angron`s tranformation because he cares for him. Especially after reading Betrayer I got the impression that Lorgar`s aims were more on the "merging" of chaos and mankind than along the line of downtrodden worship.

That's just Lorgar being willfully blind. The Word Bearers quickly abandoned Lorgar's ideal, perhaps as soon as he ascended and could no longer control them. Downtrodden and debased is the only thing mortals under Word Bearer control ever get.

actually everything is pointin to them leaving Lorgar's ideals as early as Calth, if not earlier.

Which Lorgar seems not to have disciplined them for. Either Lorgar never really believed in that ideal, or his increasing corruption led him to abandon it.

 

Lorgar admonished somebody (can't recall who) that the Gods wanted symbiosis. If Lorgar really didn't trust the Gods like he says, he should have abandoned them once it was clear that symbiosis was never in the cards (which should have been early on, for a being of Primarch intelligence).

Lorgar follows truth and the truth of the chaos gods were denied to him, when he found the truth of the warp (in Aurelian) he said something along the lines of no matter how horrible the truth it's the only thing he ever wanted. Don't quote me but the start of the book of lorgar states he never wanted the war or any of it and once again he wanted the truth. He's not a monster in reality he was the only sentinent being that wanted the truth. That's why he abandoned his legion upon his ascension and why for ten thousand years he hasn't acted. He achieved his purpose and found truth he doesn't want symbiosis with the warp he just wants the universe to accept there place. That's how I've felt since starting research on the heresy and chaos and everything else.

[Wade Garrett]

Actually there's a bit in Betrayer that seems relevant to this discussion, where Argel Tal is sickened by Angron slowly tearing an Ultramarine captain limb from limb.

 

Khârn points out that this seems just a teensy bit hypocritical, given what the Word Bearers do with their captives, and Argel Tal replies that every torture and desecration the Word Bearers inflict is in service to higher powers and in pursuit of a grand ideal. Angron's violence is just blind, unthinking rage.

 

There's an arguement to be made that Lorgar, Argel Tal, and the Vakrah Jal are morally worse than the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, or Kor Phereon and Erebus, because they know they're doing monstrous things yet justify it in the name of some greater good, whereas the others are just chasing the next fight, the next sensation, or any scrap of power they can grab.

[minigun762]

Actually there's a bit in Betrayer that seems relevant to this discussion, where Argel Tal is sickened by Angron slowly tearing an Ultramarine captain limb from limb.

 

Khârn points out that this seems just a teensy bit hypocritical, given what the Word Bearers do with their captives, and Argel Tal replies that every torture and desecration the Word Bearers inflict is in service to higher powers and in pursuit of a grand ideal. Angron's violence is just blind, unthinking rage.

 

There's an arguement to be made that Lorgar, Argel Tal, and the Vakrah Jal are morally worse than the World Eaters, Emperor's Children, or Kor Phereon and Erebus, because they know they're doing monstrous things yet justify it in the name of some greater good, whereas the others are just chasing the next fight, the next sensation, or any scrap of power they can grab.

But we must remember that Lorgar and the Word Bearers are doing this based on their perception of what is the new reality.

In their minds, it would be immoral to deny what is real (the dark gods of Chaos). As they say, they don't necessarily like the new world but they can't deny that it is true.

[Kol Saresk]

Exactly. Almost everything in 40K keeps coming back to perception. Just what is morally right and wrong when the only standard is what we make?

[RapatoR]

I will put it this way: Imagine that absolute, undeniable proof of supernatural being real is suddenly reavealed before you. You know there are supernatural beings that can be roughly refferred to angels, demons and gods. Thats pretty cool.

 

And there is life after death. Thats also pretty cool.

 

But a huge problem emerges: There is no equivalent of paradise/heaven. Only hell. All those supernatural beings are inherently evil. And only way to make sure that your soul is not tortured for entire eternity is to commint deeds of unspeakable evil.

 

What would you choose? Would you decide to be a good guy, even if you knew that only eternal torture awaits you,? Or would you turn evil to ensure that your existence after death is more tolerable?

 

And lets not even talk about how such realisation would change everyones philosophy, as it would mean that entire universe is built upon evil foundations...

[minigun762]

I 

 

And lets not even talk about how such realisation would change everyones philosophy, as it would mean that entire universe is built upon evil foundations...

 

Or that your father, the father of all fathers, who you would do anything and everything for, is building a world based on a lie.

And it's not just out of ignorance, he is intentionally lying to you and your siblings.

[Kol Saresk]

I will put it this way: Imagine that absolute, undeniable proof of supernatural being real is suddenly reavealed before you. You know there are supernatural beings that can be roughly refferred to angels, demons and gods. Thats pretty cool.

 

And there is life after death. Thats also pretty cool.

 

But a huge problem emerges: There is no equivalent of paradise/heaven. Only hell. All those supernatural beings are inherently evil. And only way to make sure that your soul is not tortured for entire eternity is to commint deeds of unspeakable evil.

 

What would you choose? Would you decide to be a good guy, even if you knew that only eternal torture awaits you,? Or would you turn evil to ensure that your existence after death is more tolerable?

 

And lets not even talk about how such realisation would change everyones philosophy, as it would mean that entire universe is built upon evil foundations...

Considering how many serial killers already attach a religious significance to their kills, or are willing to kill because they believe their belief(religious or otherwise) demands it, I imagine a good portion of Humanity would actually change morals very fast. It might be because I have very little faith in Humanity as I have seen so many "nice people" turn into some rather despicable individuals on such a regular basis that I have this view.

 

But seriously, when you put someone's life on the line, or more importantly the part that is supposed to be eternal, I think the surprise would be not how many are willing to do it, but how far some people are willing to go just to avoid an "evil fate". There will be people who make the Word Bearers, Night Lords and the other Traitors look like someone you would want to meet in a dark alley. And in a way, that's what is so grimdark about the warp. It isn't a twisted reflection. It's a reflection of what everything could be at its absolute worst, which is why it strives to smother even the smallest glimmer of hope underneath an all consuming darkness.

[GhostMalone]

I'll agree to that, mankind is at it's basest level everything we deem with the term evil, we try place social conventions on ourselves to better ourselves but when we deny parts of our natural selves the outcome can be to the extreme, look at the emperors children and the ancient eldar, thank you slanessh

[randian]

Has daemonic ascension ever been described from the point of view of the ascending being?

[Kol Saresk]

Hmm, once I think. Well, once in a 40K setting. It was the Warsmith in Storm of Iron, towards the end of the book. The only other example is from Mark of Chaos by Anthoney Reynolds, which was a WHF novel.

[Aegnor]

Also in Valkia the Bloody, also in WHFB.

[randian]

Hmm, once I think. Well, once in a 40K setting. It was the Warsmith in Storm of Iron, towards the end of the book. The only other example is from Mark of Chaos by Anthoney Reynolds, which was a WHF novel.

I'm not sure the Warsmith qualifies. If I recall correctly, we do not find out things like how his perception of the world (in physical not philosophical sense) changes, how his "body" feels to him, was the process painful or pleasurable, what if any psychological changes occur, how he perceives the warp (now that it's safe for him to directly perceive it), etc.

[Kol Saresk]

According to the POV of the Warsmith(I think it is literally the only POV we have of him, everything else is witnessed), the change caused both ecstasy and agony. I can cite page 301 as a reference, but that is page 301 of the Iron Warriors omnibus. My original copy of Storm of Iron met Florida sun rain by accident. But since he was telling everyone a little of their fates before hand, I think he already has the "warpsight" so how he saw it wouldn't have changed when he ascended, because it had changed already. And tobe honest, I don't think psychological changes would occur. For example, we M'Kar in The Chapter's Due in his daemon form. We see him earlier on in Mark of Calth of when he was Astartes. Neither really seemed to be that different, but it could just be a quirk that the author of Shards of Erebus decided to make him like his daemonic self, similar to what we see in Calth That Was.

 

A lot of authors just don't do it for one reason or another and I think the biggest is how do you accurately describe something like that? What would the daemon prince see? Would it just be the actual landshape that the warp takes, with mountains made of hate and valleys of despair cut through with rivers of death? How do we know that what they is any different from what the mortals see, just that the daemons can actually comprehend the sight and not go mad? It's really hard. If an author took the time to write down every single detail he could think of to describe it, it would become so overloaded that no one would bother reading it unless they were interested in it. At the same time, whoever did it first would "set the standard" and any deviations from it would either be criticized as not being the same or used to criticize the earlier work. And that's ignoring the fact that some of the readers would immediately go "That's not how I see it happening. This is trash."

 

Just look at all the conflicting views concerning the Primarchs. I think Dan Abnett said it in an interview with the Bolthole. He said something about how writing the Astartes was a difficult thing to do because they are so far removed from Humanity that they almost aren't human, being closer to xenos in that we cannot understand them. A Primarch is even more removed and is therefore harder to understand.

 

It may be possible that we will never understand it because it would require us putting ourselves into that position and its just something most humans aren't willing to do. "Put yourself in my shoes." That's what we tell everyone else when they question how we think or why we do what we do. Why would we try to do the inverse when we want everyone else to understand us? It exists on every level of the 40k universe. Whenever a character does something, some people get it, some people don't. And both groups then have varying "factions" or "schools of thought" on why it is so understandable or so incomprehensible. Ascension is the same thing.

 

"Why would anyone want that when they are just making themselves slaves to Chaos?"

"If they're slaves regardless of what they do, why wouldn't they at least get something out of it?"

 

"Why would Perturabo fight only a few of his brothers when even Horus used him just as much?"

"Hey, when you hate everyone and one of those people offer you a chance to kill everyone else, you take it. You kill the last guy afterwards."

 

"I just don't understand how that can be considered honor."

"You don't have to. I don't get how Seppaku is honorable. But I don't have to get it in order for someone else to see it that way. What you and I view as honorable is not what everyone has or is going to view it as. Not because you and I are wrong but because no one view is the only right view."

[Wade Garrett]

When I talked about "morally worse" I was thinking of another of Argel Tal's remarks in Betrayer.

 

"I never pretended to be anything but weak. I don't enjoy war, yet I fight. I don't relish torture, yet I inflict it. I don't revere the gods, yet I serve their holy purpose. Humanity's weakest souls will always cling to the words 'I was just following orders'."

 

Compate that to Angron, who had Dark Age of Technology implants that slow roast his brain every second he isn't messily killing something jammed into his skull as a child. Or a Night Lord recruit from the dog eat dog eat rat eat person world of Nostromo.

 

Tal made a choice to be what he is. The other two never had a prayer.

[Kol Saresk]

True enough.

[Wade Garrett]

Now, as for the Word Bearers turning...that I get. All it requires are three simple principles:

 

1. Truth is better than lies.

2. Knowledge is better than ignorance.

3. Faith must be tested.

 

When Lorgar undertook the Pilgrimage, he wasn't just testing the Old Faith...he was testing the Emperor.

 

"Did you tell me the truth? Are you really bringing enlightenment?"

 

And the Seventeenth found their answers. And from those answers...Fiat jusitania, et perreat mundis.

 

Let justice be done, though the world perish. WE WILL NOT LIVE A LIE.

[bogdan]

I will put it this way: Imagine that absolute, undeniable proof of supernatural being real is suddenly reavealed before you. You know there are supernatural beings that can be roughly refferred to angels, demons and gods. Thats pretty cool.

 

And there is life after death. Thats also pretty cool.

 

But a huge problem emerges: There is no equivalent of paradise/heaven. Only hell. All those supernatural beings are inherently evil. And only way to make sure that your soul is not tortured for entire eternity is to commint deeds of unspeakable evil.

 

What would you choose? Would you decide to be a good guy, even if you knew that only eternal torture awaits you,? Or would you turn evil to ensure that your existence after death is more tolerable?

 

And lets not even talk about how such realisation would change everyones philosophy, as it would mean that entire universe is built upon evil foundations...

 

If there are angels, then there are by definition good supernaturals entities and a semblence of a good afterlife.

Also in 40k there are tech that allows to safe store your soul after death.

[bogdan]

 

I will put it this way: Imagine that absolute, undeniable proof of supernatural being real is suddenly reavealed before you. You know there are supernatural beings that can be roughly refferred to angels, demons and gods. Thats pretty cool.

 

And there is life after death. Thats also pretty cool.

 

But a huge problem emerges: There is no equivalent of paradise/heaven. Only hell. All those supernatural beings are inherently evil. And only way to make sure that your soul is not tortured for entire eternity is to commint deeds of unspeakable evil.

 

What would you choose? Would you decide to be a good guy, even if you knew that only eternal torture awaits you,? Or would you turn evil to ensure that your existence after death is more tolerable?

 

And lets not even talk about how such realisation would change everyones philosophy, as it would mean that entire universe is built upon evil foundations...

Considering how many serial killers already attach a religious significance to their kills, or are willing to kill because they believe their belief(religious or otherwise) demands it, I imagine a good portion of Humanity would actually change morals very fast. It might be because I have very little faith in Humanity as I have seen so many "nice people" turn into some rather despicable individuals on such a regular basis that I have this view.

 

But seriously, when you put someone's life on the line, or more importantly the part that is supposed to be eternal, I think the surprise would be not how many are willing to do it, but how far some people are willing to go just to avoid an "evil fate". There will be people who make the Word Bearers, Night Lords and the other Traitors look like someone you would want to meet in a dark alley. And in a way, that's what is so grimdark about the warp. It isn't a twisted reflection. It's a reflection of what everything could be at its absolute worst, which is why it strives to smother even the smallest glimmer of hope underneath an all consuming darkness.

Then why entities like Eldar Gods, Emperor, Gork and Mork exists in the warp if everything is a twisted and evil reflection of emotions? They don't behave or act like chaos does.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually I said that it is not a twisted and evil reflection. It shows what everything has the potential to be, if it goes wrong.

 

The Emperor is a man who is willing to order the death of any who will not submit to his will. Even if the Star Child fluff was resurrected, he wouldn't be the "good" god he used to be. He would end up becoming something like the Inquisition's attitude in general: Do what must be done regardless of the price. Victory at all costs. Humanity must reign supreme." Of course, if he became a god again, I would have to wonder what was keeping him from stopping the stagnation of the Imperium.

 

Gork and Mork. They are war gods of the Orks. I struggle to find anything about them or their gods that could be called "good".

 

The Eldar Gods. As far as I know, there are only three left.

 

1.) Kaela Mensha Khaine. The "Bloody-Handed" god of war whose hand perpetually drips with blood as a reminder that he killed the hero Eldanesh. Whose very name, "Khaine", means the essence of murder. The Incubi worship him as the Lord of Murder(much like the Dark Elves in WHF) while the Eldar just see him as a rabid beast whose purpose is to protect them while paving the way for their return to mastery of the galaxy. IIRC, Isha convinced Asuryan to create the barrier that separates the warp from reality just so Khaine would stop causing so much destruction on the mortal plane.

 

2.) Isha. She is trapped by Nurgle as part of the "Hope Smothering Program". There she is forced to take in Nurgle's latest creation so the god of fear, decay, stagnation and disease can see how long it takes the rejuvenating goddess to overcome it.

 

3,) Cegorach. A very ambigious being. His followers' sole goal seems to be the survival of the Eldar race, the entire Eldar race. Even the Dark Eldar who are constantly stealing the souls of others and feeding them to Slaanesh just so damnation can be pushed one more day away. Going by this, he is even more extreme than the Emperor because while the Emperor sought to keep the soul of Humanity pure at the cost of human lives, Cegorach seems to have no such reservation except for the most corrupt of the Eldar.

 

On a side note, IIRC the "newborn Eldar god" is still current fluff. Would have to check the new Eldar Codex to be sure. But basically Ynnead is supposed to be the god being formed from all of the Eldar souls in the Infinity Circuit and whose sole purpose is not to defeat Chaos, but to defeat Slaanesh in the hopes it will free the Eldar souls Slaanesh has already consumed so their race will be reborn into something more "balanced". It is believed this soul will be born only when the last Craftworld Eldar has died and been interred within the Infinity Circuit.

 

To be honest, it sounds more like the Craftworld Eldar merely want to replace Slaanesh with something that is less inclined to eat them and why wouldn't it? By the time it is born it will have consumed every Eldar except for the Dark Eldar, Exodites and the Harlequinns and those consumed already by a different entity.

 

It might just be that I am missing it, but as far as I interpret the fluff(meaning this is my opinion based on what I have read and is therefore no more right or wrong than anyone else's), the warp is a reflection. It has the potential to be both good and bad, but either the bad is all everyone sees, or it is all the warp will show for whatever reason, even if that reason is just that we force it to only show a negative reflection by believing it to be "evil" or whatever negative adjective you want to attach to it.

 

In a way, I'm not saying the good doesn't exist in the warp, just that the few times we see it, it is either destroyed, smothered or happens to play a part in something that is not so good. Like the entity in A Thousand Sons. it might be Tzeentch. It might not. But it did help Magnus reach Terra and warn the Emperor of what was going to happen. Which resulted in the Razing of Prospero which had the consequence of convertingnthe Thousand Sons to Chaos.

[Wade Garrett]

Isn't Slaanesh technically an Eldar God?