How tough is a Primarch (Betrayer Spolier)

[Conn Eremon]

Ah. Was unaware that these Shards of Erebus were anything other than a unique, and in my opinion poorly chosen, nickname for Anathames.

 

However, I was talking only about Anathames and athames, not the Shards.

 

Oh. Unless you meant the Angel Exterminatus bit. Was that a Shard and not an Anathame?

[Wade Garrett]

Ah. Was unaware that these Shards of Erebus were anything other than a unique, and in my opinion poorly chosen, nickname for Anathames.

 

However, I was talking only about Anathames and athames, not the Shards.

 

Oh. Unless you meant the Angel Exterminatus bit. Was that a Shard and not an Anathame?

 

If we can trust Fabius (and why shouldn't we? He *is* a doctor)...the blade he has in AE is the same as the one that wounded Horus unto death. The novel also  mentions that the a Word Bearers Chaplain shaved its blade down to the length of a Legion Gladius, which I assume was the source of the Shards of Erebus.

[Kol Saresk]

As far as I am aware, that was the anathame in Angel Exterminatus. I was just saying that maybe DarkKnight was referring to the athames and in that case, there were athames that could be capable of doing what he described, but they are rather limited in number so I doubt they were involved. Unless there were spare shavings around and someone else just imitated Erebus.

[shortysl]

Ok, so the Primarchs are getting a lot of attention in the Heresy books as they should and depending on the author the Primarchs come across with various levels of toughness. For the most part they come across as incredibly tough but not to the point of stupidity. However, we then come to the book betrayer, where we see the first signs of sillyness.

 

Sanguinius fighting a Bloodthirster was fine, Guilliman surviving in the vacuum of space was explained away by not actually having him in a complete vacuum,  put Lorgar pulling gunships out of the sky with his hands, topling titans by throwing rocks at them, surviving two plasma blasts from a titan, and angron stopping a 410 tonne titan stomping on him, just seems a step too far for me.

 

We know primarchs are incredibly tough but there has to be a limit... where is that limit ?

I remember a White Dwarf article a few months ago now that talked about the literature and one particular quote springs to mind (I'm paraphrasing): "How strong is a Space Marine? As strong as you need him to be. If you need him to be strong enough to punch the head off a cultist, that's how strong he is". The writer of the article (I forget who unfortunately) was making the point that the capabilities of the characters are essentially fluid to allow for effective storytelling. I imagine the same is true of the Primarchs.

 

If the author needs a Primarch to be powerful enough to tear a gunship from the sky, then that's how powerful he is.

 

The Primarchs are demi-gods. Were any of the tasks Hercules had to perform any less ridiculous?

 

Not sure I've got my point across effectively; it's very late where I am and I think it's starting to affect my ability to think straight.....

[Kol Saresk]

I think you managed it just fine.

[DarKnight]

 

Ok, so the Primarchs are getting a lot of attention in the Heresy books as they should and depending on the author the Primarchs come across with various levels of toughness. For the most part they come across as incredibly tough but not to the point of stupidity. However, we then come to the book betrayer, where we see the first signs of sillyness.

 

Sanguinius fighting a Bloodthirster was fine, Guilliman surviving in the vacuum of space was explained away by not actually having him in a complete vacuum,  put Lorgar pulling gunships out of the sky with his hands, topling titans by throwing rocks at them, surviving two plasma blasts from a titan, and angron stopping a 410 tonne titan stomping on him, just seems a step too far for me.

 

We know primarchs are incredibly tough but there has to be a limit... where is that limit ?

I remember a White Dwarf article a few months ago now that talked about the literature and one particular quote springs to mind (I'm paraphrasing): "How strong is a Space Marine? As strong as you need him to be. If you need him to be strong enough to punch the head off a cultist, that's how strong he is". The writer of the article (I forget who unfortunately) was making the point that the capabilities of the characters are essentially fluid to allow for effective storytelling. I imagine the same is true of the Primarchs.

 

If the author needs a Primarch to be powerful enough to tear a gunship from the sky, then that's how powerful he is.

 

The Primarchs are demi-gods. Were any of the tasks Hercules had to perform any less ridiculous?

 

Not sure I've got my point across effectively; it's very late where I am and I think it's starting to affect my ability to think straight.....

As long as the action is within the realm of possibility, I'm with it. Trying to judge the psychic capability of a Primarch is a slippery slope, but Lorgar crushing the cockpit of a Warhound is easily possible, him lifting a Titan would be a little bit more of a sticky situation IMO 

[shortysl]

 

 

Ok, so the Primarchs are getting a lot of attention in the Heresy books as they should and depending on the author the Primarchs come across with various levels of toughness. For the most part they come across as incredibly tough but not to the point of stupidity. However, we then come to the book betrayer, where we see the first signs of sillyness.

 

Sanguinius fighting a Bloodthirster was fine, Guilliman surviving in the vacuum of space was explained away by not actually having him in a complete vacuum,  put Lorgar pulling gunships out of the sky with his hands, topling titans by throwing rocks at them, surviving two plasma blasts from a titan, and angron stopping a 410 tonne titan stomping on him, just seems a step too far for me.

 

We know primarchs are incredibly tough but there has to be a limit... where is that limit ?

I remember a White Dwarf article a few months ago now that talked about the literature and one particular quote springs to mind (I'm paraphrasing): "How strong is a Space Marine? As strong as you need him to be. If you need him to be strong enough to punch the head off a cultist, that's how strong he is". The writer of the article (I forget who unfortunately) was making the point that the capabilities of the characters are essentially fluid to allow for effective storytelling. I imagine the same is true of the Primarchs.

 

If the author needs a Primarch to be powerful enough to tear a gunship from the sky, then that's how powerful he is.

 

The Primarchs are demi-gods. Were any of the tasks Hercules had to perform any less ridiculous?

 

Not sure I've got my point across effectively; it's very late where I am and I think it's starting to affect my ability to think straight.....

As long as the action is within the realm of possibility, I'm with it. Trying to judge the psychic capability of a Primarch is a slippery slope, but Lorgar crushing the cockpit of a Warhound is easily possible, him lifting a Titan would be a little bit more of a sticky situation IMO 

Within the realm of possibility? Is that a phrase we're really going to go with when discussing this?

 

How exactly do you determine what is within the realm of possibility when discussing a hobby set 38000 years in the future? Forgive me, but this is as bad as those threads out there that are trying to discuss the 'realities' of Bolter operation, or the psychology of a Space Marine. It's fiction, and by it's very nature, fiction has no boundaries on what is possible and what's not.

[Conn Eremon]

That's not true. All fiction is planted in reality. It branches outward and becomes something different but it is by and large rooted in reality. Otherwise they'd never be created, because you can't create something with zero relation to any aspect of our reality and we wouldn't be enjoying it, because we'd have no frame of reference. The only thing these threads do is explore how deep the tendrils of our reality go. By fiction's very nature, it does have boundaries. Where they are, how extensive and restrictive they are, is what threads like these are discovering.

[shortysl]

That's not true. All fiction is planted in reality. It branches outward and becomes something different but it is by and large rooted in reality. Otherwise they'd never be created, because you can't create something with zero relation to any aspect of our reality and we wouldn't be enjoying it, because we'd have no frame of reference. The only thing these threads do is explore how deep the tendrils of our reality go. By fiction's very nature, it does have boundaries. Where they are, how extensive and restrictive they are, is what threads like these are discovering.

What a load of tosh. The ideas for a fictional universe may be inspired by something set within reality but you can't place boundaries upon it. That's why it's fiction. When creating the universe in question, the creators may restrict what they're going to allow to happen but that's self restriction. There is no other boundary, which is how we get such fantastical settings as the Imperium of man.

 

The OP is setting boundaries for him/herself by claiming that they don't believe it's possible for a Primarch to hold up a Titan. Based on what? Primarchs (who do not exist) can do whatever the hell they want because they're a fiction, and there's not a darn thing anyone can say against it, because the application of reality to this scenario is a nonsense in itself.

[Conn Eremon]

The Imperium is a restriction to reality, for it as an application and variation upon the institutions and governments we have already lived with.

 

Mankind is a restriction to reality, for it is our primary point of reference in that it is us supplanted into this universe.

 

Space Marines are a restriction to our reality, for they take aspects prevalent in modern and historical warrior or soldier cultures and apply them to a base human modified by our present day and/or mythological ideals of a perfected warrior-soldier.

 

The Primarchs are the same, but with a larger separation from the base Man and a stronger mythological ideal.

 

The Emperor is a step even further, veering out of mythological ideals and more into religious aspects. The three modifications in humanity are heirarchal steps along the same path.

 

Chaos is a restriction to our reality, for it is the manifestation and vilification of our own most powerful emotional processes, as evidenced further by the powerful presence of corrupted Man, regardless of their separation from our base form.

 

The Eldar, Necrons, Orks and Tau are restricted to our reality, for they are aspects of ourselves heightened to such prominence as to drown out other aspects.

 

The Tyranids, Orks, again, and I really think I'm forgetting someone here, are restricted to our reality for they an over-exaggeration of the current and past threats we have faces, whether the threat is outside or within.

 

I can keep going.

Psykers are restricted to reality because they're taking what we are already capable of doing and removing steps so as create a supernatural disconnect, such as where the man thinking he wants his cup within reach, getting up, picking it up and setting it down within his reach is going through those steps, the Psyker merely removes the physical activity involved.

 

The untouchables are restricted by reality, for they are based off of our own individuals able to do or survive things all logic dictates they can not, such as those who can conduct electricity without being terribly harmed by it, whose musculature doesn't undergo the same damage during use as everyone else's do or who plummet from extraordinary heights and survive, and applies them to this universe in which the fact that the Warp affects all is just that, fact.

 

Do you see where I'm going with this? To say that fiction is unaffected by the boundaries and restrictions of reality is a gross misrepresentation of fiction. It is not the absence of reality, it's the modification and re-application of reality until it becomes a carnival mirror reflection of reality. It is, after all, borne from our imagination.

[Kol Saresk]

Think of it as quantum physics!

No but seriously, the number one rule of fiction is to take something that is a concept in reality and expand. Sci-fi involving parallel realities are actually a "realization" of the multiverse theory. In a way, the warp is an extension of that very theory as the warp is another reality/dimension/universe in which "matter" is made of pure emotion and the entire warp exists alongside and intermingled with our own reality and both are able to influence the other. In fact, so I've seen two stories that actually so far that go and suggest that we actually have our own reflections, or shadows, in the warp. Well, actually its three but two of them work in tangent and only when put together do they suggest it.

We already have High Explosive rounds. A bolt round is nothing more than a rocket-propelled high explosive round. Not exactly that far from reality. We've been working on power armor, mechs and railguns since forever. Space battles, those have been around since the fifties I think. Maybe even earlier.

Psychic powers/psyker/ESP has been around at least as an idea for quite a while along with sorcery, although in the older days sorcery was a byword for "illusion" although somewhere along the line it became a description for warping reality through words, rituals and actions.

All of these are concepts that have been around for quite sometime and in some places, we have already begun to walk down that road, or are at least trying to prove the road exists. Jules Verne wrote about submarines, helicopters and rockets well before they became reality.

Science fiction may be fake and relies heavily on current scientific theory to tell the story, but those theories are conclusions reached by drawing connections in reality and are simply waiting to be proven.

[shortysl]

The Imperium is a restriction to reality, for it as an application and variation upon the institutions and governments we have already lived with.

 

Mankind is a restriction to reality, for it is our primary point of reference in that it is us supplanted into this universe.

 

Space Marines are a restriction to our reality, for they take aspects prevalent in modern and historical warrior or soldier cultures and apply them to a base human modified by our present day and/or mythological ideals of a perfected warrior-soldier.

 

The Primarchs are the same, but with a larger separation from the base Man and a stronger mythological ideal.

 

The Emperor is a step even further, veering out of mythological ideals and more into religious aspects. The three modifications in humanity are heirarchal steps along the same path.

 

Chaos is a restriction to our reality, for it is the manifestation and vilification of our own most powerful emotional processes, as evidenced further by the powerful presence of corrupted Man, regardless of their separation from our base form.

 

The Eldar, Necrons, Orks and Tau are restricted to our reality, for they are aspects of ourselves heightened to such prominence as to drown out other aspects.

 

The Tyranids, Orks, again, and I really think I'm forgetting someone here, are restricted to our reality for they an over-exaggeration of the current and past threats we have faces, whether the threat is outside or within.

 

I can keep going.

Psykers are restricted to reality because they're taking what we are already capable of doing and removing steps so as create a supernatural disconnect, such as where the man thinking he wants his cup within reach, getting up, picking it up and setting it down within his reach is going through those steps, the Psyker merely removes the physical activity involved.

 

The untouchables are restricted by reality, for they are based off of our own individuals able to do or survive things all logic dictates they can not, such as those who can conduct electricity without being terribly harmed by it, whose musculature doesn't undergo the same damage during use as everyone else's do or who plummet from extraordinary heights and survive, and applies them to this universe in which the fact that the Warp affects all is just that, fact.

 

Do you see where I'm going with this? To say that fiction is unaffected by the boundaries and restrictions of reality is a gross misrepresentation of fiction. It is not the absence of reality, it's the modification and re-application of reality until it becomes a carnival mirror reflection of reality. It is, after all, borne from our imagination.

Nice to see you've missed my point entirely.

 

I didn't say for one moment that fiction is not inspired by our current reality; in fact I said the exact opposite. The point I am making however is that when one is creating a fictional setting, one has no boundaries. I'll take J.K Rowling as an example: She created the Harry Potter universe while on a train journey, with no restrictions on what was possible whatsoever, because it's a work of complete fiction. To say that a Primarch, and I'll return to my original argument here, is incapable of performing a particular action is the basest kind of arrogance. Regardless of what inspired the idea of the Primarchs within the setting of Warhammer 40000, those inspirations have no bearing whatsoever on what the Primarchs are capable of doing within that setting. The inspiration is simply a framework for determining what 'Primarchs' actually are.

 

Imagine what would've happened if the creators of Superman had been told that he wouldn't be capable of doing the things he does because of boundaries set by reality. If we all adhered to the alleged 'boundaries of reality', we wouldn't have Science Fiction at all.

 

But what do I know.

 

Edit: Re-read my post and it probably seemed a little too aggressive.

[Kol Saresk]

Well in a way we sort of do. We are limited by what we can't imagine. Magic is nothing more than the manipulation of reality on the quantum level. But when it is explained like that, it loses it attraction and suddenly becomes mundane rather than mystical. So far the only time I've hear it explained like that and not kill the story was the movie "The Sorcerer's Apprentice" with Nicholas Cage when it was used to explain why the kid was so good at math and science and yet was supposed to be a sorcerer.

 

But in a way, that's the reality of it. The only boundary is our imagination because it is only a matter of time before we find out if it is real, or not real.

 

So you are right, science is not what bounds fiction, we are bound by science.

[Conn Eremon]

Way to miss my point. Being restricted to reality doesn't mean being a copy of reality. The creators of Superman did restrict Superman but that does not mean they are forced to Superman in our reality. Just because there are boundaries set by our reality doesn't mean it is the same boundaries we have to live with. Having the same boundaries is indicative of nonfiction. But fiction isn't the absence, just the alteration. Absence is impossible for us. We literally can not conceive of a reality without using our own as a template and we would be unable to comprehend it anyways. Its like a mold. You can use a mold to make whatever you want but whatever you make with that mold will all be made with that mold. You won't be able to mold something that has no connection to the mold using that mold. No matter what, any reality we devise will be molded by our own. Have I mentioned mold? Both the creators of Superman and JK Rowling used modern day earth as their mold, though the end result wasn't an exact copy. Their departures from the modern world were nothing more than applications of other aspects of our reality, such as our myths and legends what with the magic and super-human stuff. Both are examples of heavy use of real world restrictions, however. The superheroes and villains of Marvel and DC are departures of modern day reality, however they exist in a copy of of modern day reality. Rowling sought to depart further while taking it with her. It was at its core, after all, about students going to school and learning to overcome the obstacles of growing up. All of which are aspects of our reality that Rowling used to shape her piece of fiction. 40k is no different. In fact, it has more boundarirs, for it is little more than a melting pot for an incredible amount of ideas and themes, often contradictory,that all have their basis from some aspect of our reality. Werewolf Vikings, Vampire Angels. Zombies. Gods. Romans in space. Crusaders in space. Mongolians in space. Vietnam War action movie heroes. In space. 40k is mo different. There is nothing we have ever devised of our own minds that is any different. Whether you want to call it inspiration, restrictions, boundaries, whatever. Different words for the same thing. The utilization of our reality as a mold for the created reality. The latter two may have negative connotations bound to the that isn't present in the former, but they aren't. Its just the reality of it. As Kol said, our imaginations are bound by it and so too are all things borne from it. This doesn't belittle the works at all.

 

Though personally Kol, I liked the Dresden Files' use of pseudo-science magic more than the Cage flick. But that might just be because it's the Dresden Files. I mean, come on. Dresden Files. It followed the laws of physics and little else. Which, by the by, is a restriction. The fact that it picks and chooses its scientific basis is an application of all our knowledge of science as a framework. It can't be noted for following something or not following something without those somethings affecting it.

 

According to Chrome, ism't is a word, but isn't . . . Well, isn't. Seriously, Chrome?

[Kol Saresk]

*facepalm, I can't believe I forgot the Dresden Files! Been so long since I've read. Well, my weekend just got planned out I think.

[Kais Klip]

 

 

 

 

The Imperium is a restriction to reality, for it as an application and variation upon the institutions and governments we have already lived with.

Mankind is a restriction to reality, for it is our primary point of reference in that it is us supplanted into this universe.

Space Marines are a restriction to our reality, for they take aspects prevalent in modern and historical warrior or soldier cultures and apply them to a base human modified by our present day and/or mythological ideals of a perfected warrior-soldier.

The Primarchs are the same, but with a larger separation from the base Man and a stronger mythological ideal.

The Emperor is a step even further, veering out of mythological ideals and more into religious aspects. The three modifications in humanity are heirarchal steps along the same path.

Chaos is a restriction to our reality, for it is the manifestation and vilification of our own most powerful emotional processes, as evidenced further by the powerful presence of corrupted Man, regardless of their separation from our base form.

The Eldar, Necrons, Orks and Tau are restricted to our reality, for they are aspects of ourselves heightened to such prominence as to drown out other aspects.

The Tyranids, Orks, again, and I really think I'm forgetting someone here, are restricted to our reality for they an over-exaggeration of the current and past threats we have faces, whether the threat is outside or within.

I can keep going.

Psykers are restricted to reality because they're taking what we are already capable of doing and removing steps so as create a supernatural disconnect, such as where the man thinking he wants his cup within reach, getting up, picking it up and setting it down within his reach is going through those steps, the Psyker merely removes the physical activity involved.

The untouchables are restricted by reality, for they are based off of our own individuals able to do or survive things all logic dictates they can not, such as those who can conduct electricity without being terribly harmed by it, whose musculature doesn't undergo the same damage during use as everyone else's do or who plummet from extraordinary heights and survive, and applies them to this universe in which the fact that the Warp affects all is just that, fact.

Do you see where I'm going with this? To say that fiction is unaffected by the boundaries and restrictions of reality is a gross misrepresentation of fiction. It is not the absence of reality, it's the modification and re-application of reality until it becomes a carnival mirror reflection of reality. It is, after all, borne from our imagination.

Nice to see you've missed my point entirely.

 

I didn't say for one moment that fiction is not inspired by our current reality; in fact I said the exact opposite. The point I am making however is that when one is creating a fictional setting, one has no boundaries. I'll take J.K Rowling as an example: She created the Harry Potter universe while on a train journey, with no restrictions on what was possible whatsoever, because it's a work of complete fiction. To say that a Primarch, and I'll return to my original argument here, is incapable of performing a particular action is the basest kind of arrogance. Regardless of what inspired the idea of the Primarchs within the setting of Warhammer 40000, those inspirations have no bearing whatsoever on what the Primarchs are capable of doing within that setting. The inspiration is simply a framework for determining what 'Primarchs' actually are.

 

Imagine what would've happened if the creators of Superman had been told that he wouldn't be capable of doing the things he does because of boundaries set by reality. If we all adhered to the alleged 'boundaries of reality', we wouldn't have Science Fiction at all.

 

But what do I know.

 

Edit: Re-read my post and it probably seemed a little too aggressive.

While I am more than happy to allow Cormac to continue his excellent championing of my views, I do feel compelled to set a particular point out on the "authenticity" of the setting that many like you question.

 

It is my belief that there are two, both equally valid, extremes on the scale of fiction: the "Superman" end of... stretched authenticity and the science-fiction extreme, which 40k does its best to adhere to. You see because 40k makes the effort to stick to a certain level of established authenticity, building on each benchmark that it sets. Any parts that border or stretch this authenticity are dealt with the key narrative points of the setting, such as it being set 40,000 years in the future (and thus providing ample hand-wavium for any technological issues) and the inclusion of the Warp (dealing away with many of the otherwise "plot-called-out-of-the-blue" "supernatural" factors).

 

That is why I vehemously despise settings such as Superman; they do not make the effort that 40k does in persuading their reader of the authenticity of their settings. I will cover the quality of said effort later in this post.

 

Primarchs are an entirely different issue; they and many of their actions which stretch the aforementioned authenticity factor, such as our Titan scenario, are dealt away by their aspect of mystery. We know an Astartes is, at the end of the day, human flesh and blood. We make leeways, we draw from comparisons based on our experience with our own flesh and blood, and we let them jump tens of meters, or lift human men by the handful. We do not let them hurdle kilometres much like authors of the "Superman" extreme, or let line Astartes lift titans because the author has written in a hole and the plot calls for it; many of those scenarios do not take plot shortcuts as you suggest, but are re-written to avoid any unjustifiable outlandish extremes.

 

Primarchs are almost completely mystical; we do not know wherever, for example, their muscle is even remotely formed in the aspect of its human counterpart, or even if that superior intellect comes from an organ anywhere near the place our brains are. We have only to go on our predefined laws that are only now starting to be put forth by succeeding iterations of the narrative; a primarch can, from Betrayer onwards, barely halt a Warhoun's stride. I can bet my continued involvement in the hobby that we will not see an Astartes initiate perform such a feat, and that any character deemed physically stronger than a Primarch will not fail such a similar feat. Lorgar can, given his defences, survive plasma gun shots so we will not see him die to a battle-brother's hand flamer lest vital factors change. Warhammer 40,000, on its rougher edges, achieves authenticity through consistency.

 

40k makes an effort to lay down real-life comparable laws and stick by them. It is why Astartes do not fly ala Superman; it is why they have jump packs, for example. And yes, you may accuse many of these narrative laws and explanations to be vague and found wanting to a scrutinising scientific eye, but the level of detail it does provide is sufficient enough for the majority of the time. We know an Astartes' strength comes from his Biscopea implant. We are told all that muscle is the result of growth hormones. You may call for more in-depth detail, but such level is all that is needed for person like I, someone who yearns for narrative-laid authenticity, to enjoy day to day because it is at that level that most of us enjoy our day to day lives at. I can assure you that the tide of the sea is real, but I cannot explain to you how the tide works in any more detail than is commonly put forth by 40k. I can tell you that it is influenced by the gravitational pull of the Moon as Earth's celestial satellite, but I cannot go further and explain to you the formulae of gravitational influence and how it acts on each individual liquid molecule, which you would be asking for if you found 40k's explanation of say, plasma guns, wanting in accuracy and detail. No matter our respective specialisations, the vast majority of our day to day lives are enjoyed at the detail of comprehension, and thus authenticity, as put forth by the Warhammer 40,000 narrative.

[shortysl]

Way to miss my point. Being restricted to reality doesn't mean being a copy of reality. The creators of Superman did restrict Superman but that does not mean they are forced to Superman in our reality. Just because there are boundaries set by our reality doesn't mean it is the same boundaries we have to live with. Having the same boundaries is indicative of nonfiction. But fiction isn't the absence, just the alteration. Absence is impossible for us. We literally can not conceive of a reality without using our own as a template and we would be unable to comprehend it anyways. Its like a mold. You can use a mold to make whatever you want but whatever you make with that mold will all be made with that mold. You won't be able to mold something that has no connection to the mold using that mold. No matter what, any reality we devise will be molded by our own. Have I mentioned mold? Both the creators of Superman and JK Rowling used modern day earth as their mold, though the end result wasn't an exact copy. Their departures from the modern world were nothing more than applications of other aspects of our reality, such as our myths and legends what with the magic and super-human stuff. Both are examples of heavy use of real world restrictions, however. The superheroes and villains of Marvel and DC are departures of modern day reality, however they exist in a copy of of modern day reality. Rowling sought to depart further while taking it with her. It was at its core, after all, about students going to school and learning to overcome the obstacles of growing up. All of which are aspects of our reality that Rowling used to shape her piece of fiction. 40k is no different. In fact, it has more boundarirs, for it is little more than a melting pot for an incredible amount of ideas and themes, often contradictory,that all have their basis from some aspect of our reality. Werewolf Vikings, Vampire Angels. Zombies. Gods. Romans in space. Crusaders in space. Mongolians in space. Vietnam War action movie heroes. In space. 40k is mo different. There is nothing we have ever devised of our own minds that is any different. Whether you want to call it inspiration, restrictions, boundaries, whatever. Different words for the same thing. The utilization of our reality as a mold for the created reality. The latter two may have negative connotations bound to the that isn't present in the former, but they aren't. Its just the reality of it. As Kol said, our imaginations are bound by it and so too are all things borne from it. This doesn't belittle the works at all.

 

Though personally Kol, I liked the Dresden Files' use of pseudo-science magic more than the Cage flick. But that might just be because it's the Dresden Files. I mean, come on. Dresden Files. It followed the laws of physics and little else. Which, by the by, is a restriction. The fact that it picks and chooses its scientific basis is an application of all our knowledge of science as a framework. It can't be noted for following something or not following something without those somethings affecting it.

 

According to Chrome, ism't is a word, but isn't . . . Well, isn't. Seriously, Chrome?

Tell you what, let's agree to disagree on this one eh? You're flogging a point that has nothing whatsoever to do with mine, and your patronising tone is getting to the point where I'm not going to bother editing my posts for aggression and I'll be damned if I'm going to get a warning off the mods over you.

 

You missed my point, and I seem to be missing yours. We both have very valid opinions that are at odds with the other. I don't begrudge you your opinion but this is getting us nowhere. 

[Conn Eremon]

Hey, sorry if it came off as patronizing, it certainly wasn't intentional. I was honestly having fun with the mini-debate but we can let bygones by bygones.

[Chaplain Seneca]

I read betrayer and loved it. How you can get Angron to go beyond raging. When his skulls get trampled. I was like WOW. My all time fave books are. The night lords trilogy . Hellsreach and betrayer. Would love a dedicated black Templar novel. Written by A.D.B. sorry for the kiss ass ness of this. But I've recommended betrayer to anyone who haven't read it.

[daveNYC]

Seriously?  Nobody has brought up the willing suspension of disbelief?  Because that's what all this is about really.  It's not about whether or not a primarch is actually capable of doing X or Y.  The WD bit about their strength being equal to how strong they need to be to fit the story is totally accurate.  What's missing is that what their capable of needs to be limited to a level that isn't going to break the readers' suspension of disbelief.  The point where gasps of awe turn into derisive laughter. 
 
Angron being able to hold up the Warhound broke that suspension, but not too horribly.  Basically where it fell down was that holding up a Warhound is pretty far off in crazyland, but I'd still be down for it except that we've been told that Vulkan and Ferrus are the two strongest primarchs.  So as soon as Angron was able to handle the Warhound, I immediately started thinking about what Vulkan would have to do to demonstrate his (theoretically) superior strength... and that's where things fell apart.  It didn't help that for a lot of the over the top stuff you've got mad psyker powers on tap to try and explain it, which is something that Angron pretty much doesn't have available to him. 
 
That said, a lot of 40k books end up breaking my suspension of disbelief in some way.  Either through having the antagonists doing something painfully and nonsensically stupid, some OTT combat feat, or just plain having 30 pages of bolter porn where the character get's shot eleventy-bajillion times but shrugs it off while around him the red shirt marines are dropping like flies.  That last one is the worst, just because it has so little ambition in the writing, plus the main character's armor is so shredded that he's basically running around in his underwear by the end of things (but still not dropping from all the bolt rounds).
 
Overall, Betrayer was a good book.  ADB pretty much does the best characters in the 40k setting, big bonus points for managing to create believable motive for almost everyone too.  The weak spots were:

 

1) I'm still not digging Lorgar's motive.  Not so much the fact that he is rebelling because he found the truth, but that he's burning and killing everything as a result.  His whole thing that Humanity can only survive with the help of chaos (because chaos is going to take over everything, or something) really falls flat when the amount of Humanity he's killing is rather high.  Not to mention that he's explicitly said that the Gods need humanity, which should be bringing up questions of how chaos is going to take over everything if humanity isn't helping, plus the deeper question of how godlike is something that needs the help of humanity to do anything.

 

2) The king ships.  Having the Abyss run around in a single book as the big-bad wasn't horrible.  It wasn't a great book, but the general concept of having to destroy a superweapon before it blows up its target is a solid enough basis for a story.  Now creating two more of those superweapons, and then giving them the capability to hold off a major fleet just by themselves (OK, there were the two other cap ships and some escorts) is just bad.  It cheapens just how awesomely awesome the Abyss was because the Abyss is no longer unique, and it sets up the ships as painfully easy to use deus ex machina type devices.  Or worse, brings up questions about why they weren't brought in to kill a particular problem.  Imagine if The Empire Strikes Back had started off with a shot of two fully functional Death Stars tooling around.  It would cheapen the end of the first movie, and make the audience wonder just why they weren't out there solving (killing) all the Empire's problems.

 

[Brother Heinrich]

I read betrayer and loved it. How you can get Angron to go beyond raging. When his skulls get trampled. I was like WOW. My all time fave books are. The night lords trilogy . Hellsreach and betrayer. Would love a dedicated black Templar novel. Written by A.D.B. sorry for the kiss ass ness of this. But I've recommended betrayer to anyone who haven't read it.

Umm, there is a dedicated Black Templars novel written by Aaron Dembski-Bowden, it's called Helsreach, maybe you've heard of it.

 

Seriously?  Nobody has brought up the willing suspension of disbelief?  Because that's what all this is about really.  It's not about whether or not a primarch is actually capable of doing X or Y.  The WD bit about their strength being equal to how strong they need to be to fit the story is totally accurate.  What's missing is that what their capable of needs to be limited to a level that isn't going to break the readers' suspension of disbelief.  The point where gasps of awe turn into derisive laughter. 

 

Angron being able to hold up the Warhound broke that suspension, but not too horribly.  Basically where it fell down was that holding up a Warhound is pretty far off in crazyland, but I'd still be down for it except that we've been told that Vulkan and Ferrus are the two strongest primarchs.  So as soon as Angron was able to handle the Warhound, I immediately started thinking about what Vulkan would have to do to demonstrate his (theoretically) superior strength... and that's where things fell apart.  It didn't help that for a lot of the over the top stuff you've got mad psyker powers on tap to try and explain it, which is something that Angron pretty much doesn't have available to him. 

 

That said, a lot of 40k books end up breaking my suspension of disbelief in some way.  Either through having the antagonists doing something painfully and nonsensically stupid, some OTT combat feat, or just plain having 30 pages of bolter porn where the character get's shot eleventy-bajillion times but shrugs it off while around him the red shirt marines are dropping like flies.  That last one is the worst, just because it has so little ambition in the writing, plus the main character's armor is so shredded that he's basically running around in his underwear by the end of things (but still not dropping from all the bolt rounds).

 

Overall, Betrayer was a good book.  ADB pretty much does the best characters in the 40k setting, big bonus points for managing to create believable motive for almost everyone too.  The weak spots were:

 

1) I'm still not digging Lorgar's motive.  Not so much the fact that he is rebelling because he found the truth, but that he's burning and killing everything as a result.  His whole thing that Humanity can only survive with the help of chaos (because chaos is going to take over everything, or something) really falls flat when the amount of Humanity he's killing is rather high.  Not to mention that he's explicitly said that the Gods need humanity, which should be bringing up questions of how chaos is going to take over everything if humanity isn't helping, plus the deeper question of how godlike is something that needs the help of humanity to do anything.

 

2) The king ships.  Having the Abyss run around in a single book as the big-bad wasn't horrible.  It wasn't a great book, but the general concept of having to destroy a superweapon before it blows up its target is a solid enough basis for a story.  Now creating two more of those superweapons, and then giving them the capability to hold off a major fleet just by themselves (OK, there were the two other cap ships and some escorts) is just bad.  It cheapens just how awesomely awesome the Abyss was because the Abyss is no longer unique, and it sets up the ships as painfully easy to use deus ex machina type devices.  Or worse, brings up questions about why they weren't brought in to kill a particular problem.  Imagine if The Empire Strikes Back had started off with a shot of two fully functional Death Stars tooling around.  It would cheapen the end of the first movie, and make the audience wonder just why they weren't out there solving (killing) all the Empire's problems.

 

 

I'm inclined to agree, as much of a World Eaters fan as I am, and as enjoyable as Betrayer was to read, there were several moment I found myself laughing out loud at how crazy things had become within the story. I loved Betrayer not for the action but more for the amazing in-depth look into the soul of a Legion that many simply write off and refuse to give a second thought to the inner workings and social mechanisms at work within the World Eaters legion. The duality of hating your father for what he is but still wanting to be something he will look upon with pride and admiration, awesome writing indeed. 

[W0lfie]

In Angel Exterminatus Perturabo sends a certain marine flying with just a little push from his finger and rips terminator armor off another without any effort.  And he isn't blessed by the dark gods the way others are.  Magnus takes down a titan by himself.  So yes, Angron stopping/surviving a titan putting its foot on him is silly.  But so is saying that in the vacuum of space, the outsides of ships somehow have a limited atmosphere.

That depends on the mass of the ship.  If it were big enough it could have it's own atmosphere.  And either way, when exposed to space what kills you is running out of air, decompression doesn't actually happen, freezing doesn't actually happen (despite the lack of heat, there are so few particles to absorb the heat you are emitting it's not that big a deal) and radiation is only a factor depending on the location.  If Guilliman could have some air (like, say, from the limited atmosphere a ship of sufficient mass could retain) he could breathe, and though having that bit of atmosphere would re-introduce freezing as a factor, I think his Primarch physiology could handle that.

 

The things I think are silly are most of what Perturabo does, the factor that Angron survives being stepped on by a titan and the fact that Angron survives a mountain dropping on him.  Also, Corax in the aftermath of isstvan was tossing rocks (not boulders, ROCKS) hard enough to penetrate marine power armour.  Unless those rocks were actually diamonds or osmiridium nuggets or something, chances are they'd just shatter when they hit the armour.  The only other things really are Sanguinius having way too much ease with Ka'Bandha, Lorgar's Warhound shattering shenanigans and Fulgrim being able to physically overpower the Avatar of Khaine.

[Vesper]

 and Fulgrim being able to physically overpower the Avatar of Khaine.

If Calgar did it, it's pretty much within reach of most people in the Galaxy.

[daveNYC]

Punching out an Avatar is a standard rite of passage for most space marine chapters.

 

Ugh, the limited atmosphere around the ship in KnF was just stupid.  Our own moon doesn't have an atmosphere worth mentioning.  They'd have been better off just handwaving it away with some mention of goofy primarch physiology, maybe some wierd gland that was able to crack fat cells in a way to release oxygen.  Just have it use a ton of energy, which would also help explain why he wasn't a total uber death machine during the final showdown.

[Kol Saresk]

I feel the need to point out that our moon does have an atmosphere.

 

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LADEE/news/lunar-atmosphere.html#.UdHLEZxQBIo