How tough is a Primarch (Betrayer Spolier)

[Greyall]

Mileage will vary like crazy, and rightly so, but without the over the top feats, I don't think the significance of the Primarchs would have been the same. They provide a scale by which to measure the whole setting, both physically and psychologically. You see a chapter master fall from grace and it's just another wednesday night for the imperium, but when the fallen is a guy capable of toppling Warhounds, son of the galaxy's most powerful being and therefore with no reason to fear even gods, you get a sense of just how dark the setting is and how far humanity has risen only to implode.

 

Likewise, when you think that one of those Primarchs has been killed by "simple" space masrines, you start to see the real threat Chaos poses, each dark crusade taking the lives of imperial heroes until the last one falls before the throne. The death of each of them is one more step towards the imperiums agonizing, decadent end. The vengeance of those fallen is the worst nightmare of every imperial citizen and fan. the return of those vanished is the last shred of hope for an unavoidable future. Primarchs are what they need to be to become immortal legends in a setting where regular legends are some eldritch monster's breakfast.

 

Personally, I wouldn't have them any less overpowered. As an imperial, I have Sterns, Yarricks, Machariuses and Calgars in the millions. I'd laugh in the face of Chaos if that's all they're capable of taking out. and I'm done with being hopefu

[daveNYC]

I feel the need to point out that our moon does have an atmosphere.

http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/LADEE/news/lunar-atmosphere.html#.UdHLEZxQBIo

"Worth mentioning" is obviously subjective.

[Kol Saresk]

Well you said it was unbelievable for a ship to have an atmosphere because the moon didn't have an atmosphere. But the moon does have an atmosphere. Meaning that if a ship is large enough, it could potentially have an atmosphere similar to the moon's: there but worthless to us normal mortals. Doesn't help the believability factor, but it does remove the impossibility factor.

 

The other thing is that Primarchs are to Space Marines as Space Marines are to Mortals. Mortals cannot survive in space. At all. We enter the void and we are dead. Even if there is an atmosphere similar to the moon's. A Space Marine, can survive for a time, especially if he uses the Sus-ann Membrane to put himself into stasis. Risky, as not all who go in come out, but plausible and for the most part, has never been argued with.

 

Then we have the Primarchs. We have Angron having a wall dropped his head at one point. In another, he is buried completely. Digs down and down and down. And then he digs the other way, breaches the surface and then catches a Warhound off balance and then holds it off-balance, sort of like a kickstand.

 

Lorgar takes a plasma blast to the face. A kine-shield similar to the one used by the Thousand Sons at Prospero is the only reason he wasn't killed and only suffered major 3rd degree burns to who knows how much of his body, through his armor.

 

The Lion has his throat slashed.

 

Curze has a sword rammed through his back and punch clean out his chest. At another point in time, he suffers eleven wounds that individually, would have meant instant death for a Space Marine plus his throat being sliced through and who knows how many other life-threatening and/or minor cuts. Not only does he pull through, but he launches straight back into the fight.

 

Mortarion was able to survive in the atmosphere of Barbarus. At least until he reached the part that could not support human physiology regardless of the gene-enhancements made, even in a being forged to be something that is only human in the smallest of proportions.

 

Then we have Guilliman. Launched into the void. A place where Mortals die and Space Marines have a chance of surviving. We have ship that is at least dozens of kilometers long. It has enough mass that it can drag along debris. Is currently ejecting(or has ejected) atmosphere from breached compartments. So there is oxygen in this very, infinitesimal atmosphere. Which is more than most Marines have in their power armor when the oxygen runs out. We already have one Primarch surviving in an atmosphere that would kill a normal human, and since it gave Mortarion trouble, a Space Marine as well. An infinitesimal atmosphere is just as hazardous as a poisonous one. But in the almost non-existent atmosphere Guilliman was exposed to, there was something Guilliman had that Mortarion didn't: a steady supply of oxygen. So in theory, if Guilliman took very shallow breaths, he could survive so long as he stayed in this tiny pocket of oxygen that surrounded the ship. Still unbelievable. I admit it, it is unbelievable. But then again, I find magic unbelievable. I find an alternate reality filled with the things of nightmares unbelievable. Heck, I still find it unbelievable that someone can hit asphalt at 60 mph wearing no leather, get up, stumble to a concrete wall, and other than some road rash on the palm of one hand, come out without a single other scratch and no bruises whatsoever. And I lived through that. And I still find it unbelievable.

 

The point is that it might be unbelievable. But it's possible. Even if it's only 0.00000000000000000000001% possible, it is possible. Unbelievable yes, but still possible.

[GhostMalone]

@kol - I agree humans alone are able to on circumstances do unbelievable things and pull through so a Demi god (which a primarch is pretty much a god) would be able to withstand pretty much anything. I feel if anything the feats we have been shown are about a fraction possible for these gods, I would possibly love to see that a primarch takes on a tide of Deamons single handedly and comes out battered and bruised but literally takes on a tide of them.

[Greyall]

Well, Corax, doesn't take on a tide of Daemons and come out on top. He actually charges said tide and comes out pretty much unscathed.

 

The parallel to super-heroes is hard to trace, since Primarchs are actually more in line with the Wolverines and Spider-Mans than with Supermans or Hulks. A Primarch, for all its power, is a glass cannon. Or, rather, a play-doh one. Sure, they pack a tremendous punch, certainly on par with the heavyweights among super heroes, but they're far from invulnerable, rather possessing almost endless stamina and a fast-as-hell healing factor. It's like entering all the cheat codes in a game except the invulnerability one. Betrayer showed it best, I think. ADB didn't hold back a bit on showing how all that "bolter rounds hit him left and right without even slowing him down" bravado ends up: with third degree burns and your upper-body muscles torn apart. Next battle, though, they've healed - with a bit of help from some special friends.

 

Also, if you think about it, there's nothing strange about Primarchs performing certain feats. What you're getting is a first-row seat to one of 40K's most famous elements: the stuff of legend. You have Comissars beating Warbosses, Inquisitors killing An'ggrath, etc. That kind of over-the-top, disbelief-suspending, underdog-curbstomp feat is a mainstay on the setting, especially in codices. With Primarchs you just get to see such things happen without any mouth to ear distortion.

[003998]

Just a quick thought: Would a starship really have to capture an atmosphere through its mass? After all, some kind of artificial gravity seems to be in effect, right? So combine this with the venting of internal atmosphere due to hull breaches and things get just that little bit less unbelievable.

[Kol Saresk]

I figure it's a bit of both. And if the ship was at an orbit similar to the International Space at our planet, according to NASA's math, it could be at least three ten trillionths of our atmosphere at sea level. Might not be "worth mentioning" but hey, it's more oxygen and nitrogen than Mortarion probably had at the top of his mountain when he was suffocating.

[daveNYC]

Well you said it was unbelievable for a ship to have an atmosphere because the moon didn't have an atmosphere. But the moon does have an atmosphere. Meaning that if a ship is large enough, it could potentially have an atmosphere similar to the moon's: there but worthless to us normal mortals. Doesn't help the believability factor, but it does remove the impossibility factor.

 

The other thing is that Primarchs are to Space Marines as Space Marines are to Mortals. Mortals cannot survive in space. At all. We enter the void and we are dead. Even if there is an atmosphere similar to the moon's. A Space Marine, can survive for a time, especially if he uses the Sus-ann Membrane to put himself into stasis. Risky, as not all who go in come out, but plausible and for the most part, has never been argued with.

 

[big snip]

 

The point is that it might be unbelievable. But it's possible. Even if it's only 0.00000000000000000000001% possible, it is possible. Unbelievable yes, but still possible.

 

Cough, I did say 'no atmosphere worth mentioning', not 'no atmosphere'.

 

For the other stuff we're just back to suspension of disbelief, and what works and doesn't work for each reader.  I would have had little to zero issue buying Guilliman's survivial if they had simply chalked it up to awesome primarch awesomeness.  There was a scifi novel years ago where a critter had a gland that produced hyper-oxygenated fluid that it used for bursts of speed and a plot point involved the critter using that fluid as an emergency oxygen supply to avoid drowning.  No need to get that detailed, but overall, I'd prefer handwavium to laughably wrong physics.  Seriously, once you start talking about enough mass to hold any sort of atmosphere, you're talking crazy huge numbers.  Numbers that even 40k would consider to be crazy big.  I also get the same eye twitch when they talk about the Tyranids eating entire planets.  The gigatons of mass involved... 

 

I'm not a hard scifi stickler, but if the writers already have something like Primarch Physiology on tap, I'd prefer that they use that and not come up with a 'realistic' solution that is actually a joke.  And don't get me started on the orbital mechanics that had that ship fall out of drydock, but left the drydock in orbit.

[Kol Saresk]

Apologies, the first time I read your post Imaccidentally read over that part. So that is my bad.

 

But it was awesome primarch awesomeness. Just not using a gland. It was really really really shallow breathing in an atmosphere as lethal as the mountaintops of Barbarus and as 003998 suggested, the artificial gravity probably played a factor as well. And wasn't there another ship that was dragging along debris and an atmosphere. It was in Innonence Proves Nothing by Sandy Mitchell IIRC. It was published in 2009-ish so there is precedence.

 

And the drydock did fall. In pieces. All of the ammunition, people, that one Comtemptor Terminator, not to mention the drydock's debris. It was hit by a kamikaze ship after all. And the explosion is why the ships fell. :D

 

But to be honest, the only time I bother try to reconcile reality with fiction is when I'm watching tv and I see someone riding a motorcycle and shooting a gun with their right hand, while accelerating. But that's just me.

[daveNYC]

A variation on that was a plot point in a Happy Days episode.  The motercycle throttle, not the artificial gravity.

 

Funny that Wolverine was mentioned.  I've heard two things said about his healing factor.  That it's as strong as it needs to be; and that it's power is inversely proportional to the quality of the writing.

 

As a barely related aside about how random the breaking of disbelief can be, back in the before time, one of my HS friends saw Batman, the first Michael Keaton movie.  His cracked when The Joker shot down the Batjet thing using the 3' long handgun.  Absolutely fine with everything else up until that point, but when The Joker took the shot and the plane crashed he was all, "That couldn't happen."  Go fig.

 

I dunno, my general take on this is that crazy over the top is fine, within limits, but making sure that the story follows the rules of the 'real' universe (with whatever cutouts are put in there for the Warp, future tech, primarchness, etc.) helps tie the whole thing together.  It also helps make the crazy bits more notable, and somewhat more believable since (to me) plain primarch awesomeness is an easier sell than primarch awesomeness plus bad physics.

 

One notable example.  In Consider Phlebas, the setting is post-scarcity with crazy level tech.  So they have anti-grav belts that are literally anti-gravity (ie. they're not just some magic flying belt, their mechanism specifically works by countering gravity) and just as a two or three line bit, the author (Banks) splats a minor character by having him turn on his belt and vault over a railing that's like 200 feet up.  On an orbital that's providing 'gravity' via spin.  It just feels like gravity but it's actually centrifugal force, which means the belt doesn't work.  With just that tiny bit, the author managed to confirm that the setting is in the 'real' universe, and that the tech, tools, and people that he populated it with work according to and within those rules, they're not just magic wish fulfillment deus ex machina things.  That one bit made it much easier to accept a setting where ship weapons were super magic distructo beams that pulled their energy from the underlying structure of the universe and false teeth could contain a rifle sized BFG (deus ex os).

 

Anyone read anything that does a good job describing how to ride the thin line between awesome and stupid?

[Greyall]

I actually like and accept that characters can have an all-powerful healing factor. As long as they feel pain and can be incapacitated. Wolverine can (and he does, a lot), the Primarchs can (and they do, a fair bit).

 

Obviously, authors should tread carefully where technology is concerned, but I can't ask them to go read scientific studies for a setting in which one race's technology works out of belief in it - and being red.

 

I agree, however, that things like space and void rules should be respected. Not that I knew if a ship could or could not create its own outward atmosphere. I would simply have gone with "Guilly's a Primarch, he can take it, the guy is a mix of science and warp energies". Done. It's what Primarchs are for, breaking boundaries.

 

To show how power downgradding doesn't always make things more believable, I think the final fight in Promethean Sun would've made perfect sense if won by a single Primarch instead of "Power Rangers blue and green against the humongous baddie". Why wouldn't a Primarch be able to squash a "dragon's" trachea or break its neck?

For a good example, I again refer to Betrayer. Throughout the novel the Primarchs are hurt like hell without their power levels ever decreasing. In the end, during Lorgar's fight with the WE psykers and Contemptor I actually feared for his life. Same with Angron getting chunks blown off by bolter rounds during the ritual.

[GhostMalone]

I love how betrayer in all honesty has set a precident for so many of us, it showed how easily a primarch can get messed up and how quickly they regenerate. It makes the death of ferrus mannus more believable. I always thought of him being a weak ass pansy son of a $&@?! But seeing what extremes curze angron Magnus lorgar and even our dear old fulgrim went through gives me a better perspective.

 

Makes me wonder what the hell mortarion will have to suffer at the hands of burgle before he gives in.

[Demus Ragnok]

I love how betrayer in all honesty has set a precident for so many of us, it showed how easily a primarch can get messed up and how quickly they regenerate. It makes the death of ferrus mannus more believable. I always thought of him being a weak ass pansy son of a $&@?! But seeing what extremes curze angron Magnus lorgar and even our dear old fulgrim went through gives me a better perspective.

 

Makes me wonder what the hell mortarion will have to suffer at the hands of burgle before he gives in.

Wait what? Ferrus was beheaded in a duel with another primarch. A primarch being juiced by a daemon sword. How would any of that make Ferrus a chump?

[GhostMalone]

The fact he was the only primarch to honestly not have an epic death. I get it was a daemon sword and partly possessed fulgrim but before knowing what there capable of his death seemed a bit pathetic.

[Demus Ragnok]

Pathetic...I can't say I follow your opinion, but to each his own.

 

I just can't see being murdered in single combat by your most beloved brother as pathetic.

[GhostMalone]

I felt that way due to the first 4 books only ever witnessing one primarch which was fulgrim who crushed an avatars skull with his bare hands then go on to kill ferrus.

 

Back all those many years ago you didn't know what we know now. If I had of known that a primarch had this level of power I could have appreciated it more then compared to now.

[Conn Eremon]

By that logic Jaspcat, wouldn't Rogal Dorn be lower on the list than Ferrus Manus? Ferrus got taken out by an equal upgraded beyond him. Dorn got taken out by a single ship's worth of Chaos Marines.

[Kol Saresk]

Depending on the shipload that could be a couple hundred to three thousand(going by the description of the Dominus-class battle-barge in Betrayer). So actually, if anything it again shows just what it takes depending on the numbers. Besides, no one said the Chaos Marines made it out alive. They just said Dorn didn't.

[Demus Ragnok]

Depending on the shipload that could be a couple hundred to three thousand(going by the description of the Dominus-class battle-barge in Betrayer). So actually, if anything it again shows just what it takes depending on the numbers. Besides, no one said the Chaos Marines made it out alive. They just said Dorn didn't.

Yeah I like to think that Dorn succumbed to his wounds as he was making his way toward the exit. After everything else was dead.

[Demus Ragnok]

I felt that way due to the first 4 books only ever witnessing one primarch which was fulgrim who crushed an avatars skull with his bare hands then go on to kill ferrus.

 

Back all those many years ago you didn't know what we know now. If I had of known that a primarch had this level of power I could have appreciated it more then compared to now.

I still just can't get my mind to line up with your thoughts here. I agree with Cormac's comments.

[GhostMalone]

I understand that, and I respect it as well.

I always saw them prior to the latest HH books to just be suped up marines. But before now ferrus wasn't covered enough, heresy begins he dies. He never had a chance to shine like the lion curze angron fulgrim lorgar and even Russ & Magnus.

 

Yes he killed a necron dragon guard whatever but for a primarch benefitted with necrodermis I expected more and maybe prior heresy he did some god like crazy :cuss, but till that's released I wasn't able to see him as the son if a god

[Kol Saresk]

 

 

I felt that way due to the first 4 books only ever witnessing one primarch which was fulgrim who crushed an avatars skull with his bare hands then go on to kill ferrus.

Back all those many years ago you didn't know what we know now. If I had of known that a primarch had this level of power I could have appreciated it more then compared to now.

I still just can't get my mind to line up with your thoughts here. I agree with Cormac's comments.

Well Jaspcat isn't the first person I've seen with this opinion. It was actually one of the more common opinions back when Fulgrim was first released. IIRC, part of what the argument was that at the time, the Primarchs just seemed like oversized Space Marines. So when we saw one do something awesome like beat the crap out of an Avatar of Khaine only for another one to just have his head lopped off by the same Primarch, it just seemed disproportionate. Wasn't an opinion I shared but it did exist and I understood it. Then again, the way I seem to be able to understand everyone's viewpoints with enough information provided it does raise questions of whether or not I'm bipolar.

 

Now later on down the road knowing what we know now, as Jaspcat said we have a better understanding of the effort that actually goes into a killing a Primarch and so it brings it all into proportion.

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Jaspcat

[Conn Eremon]

I can understand the viewpoint, that Ferrus seems belittled by his death given the depictions of the Primarchs.

 

But I can't say I agree with it. They are so unbelievably powerful that at this point it seems that the only thing that can kill them are themselves. Anyone replying to me should take note that I said seems, not that is. But that is how Ferrus is killed, by one of their own. An Avatar would have crumbled in his iron grip (ba-dum-tish), a Titan would have been toppled. But he faced a brother. A being as powerful as he, aided on the side by powers Ferrus didn't know or understand. He pit himself against a force as capable of ending his life as he was of ending its in a sole survivor wins grudge match. A fight like that, only one walks away. And only one did. Doesn't matter what the Primarchs can or can not do, or how powerful they have grown over the series. It has zero influence on that kind of situation. Those are about showing the disparity between Primarchs and non-Primarchs.

 

It just sounds iffy to me to say that because Primarchs are able to go all WWF on Titans, it lessens the death of one of them, when it's at the hands of one just like him. You got a guy, master of the blade and hero of the three villages within a day's walk and therefore the entirety of his world. You got another guy, all decked out in modern gear with spec ops training. Specs guns Blades down from a safe distance. Viewers are amazed at the far more effective killing capabilities of Specs. Ops comes up, has a shoot-out with Specs. Specs kills Ops with a bullet to the brain as Ops got too emotional and made of himself a target. Now, is the relative ease of Specs killing Ops belittled because its like how Specs handled Blades? No, it doesn't. Both Specs and Ops were equally capable of killing each other and one did.

 

That said, I can definitely understand and agree that we need to see more of him. What we have seen so far is little more than glimpses into the flaws and low points of he and his Legion. It would be nice to see something else.

 

And Kol, good point about the ship's class. I'd let myself continue thinking of a battle-barge with a contingent of 300. Though, my vision of the battle was that they killed Dorn but only after losing so many men and vital stations that their ability to wage war had effectively been neutered. Curious to see if it will ever be written about. I'd brought it up because, if any Primarch's death should be re-evaluated in light of their current portrayals, it's Dorn.

[Kol Saresk]

I thought Jaspcat said being able to topple the Titan made Manus' death more believable, not more pathetic? I admit, the insomnia may be talking.

[Conn Eremon]

I thought he was referring to the regeneration from attacks such as the plasma and the being underground digging the wrong way thing, rather than being Titan stomp-proof but perhaps that's my own insomnia.

 

And speaking of which, as well as the bipolar comment earlier, STOP BEING ME. IT'S CREEPING ME OUT.