Da scouts and devastation

[FarFromSam]

You may be missing the most important flaw in the list.  It's the banner that makes scouts points back in this list.  What's to say the opponent wont focus down terminator squad? Even with an apoth and a libby poor luck and unlucky positioning will put that banner in the dirt.  

 

And what about scatters?  The six inch bubble for the banner is a tight drop.  especially if your are trying to get 4 (+) squads the buff.  That's a narrow drop.  Perhaps invest in a ravenwing squad?

 

With that said I like it.  Looks to be fun!

[Brother Immolator]

The example I gave had 30 scouts, but I would likely run 40. That's 8 5man units, and ideally, they're all benefitting from the banner. No tau army can remove cover saves from 8 units, and most can't do it to 4. There just isn't enough markerlight love to go around. Scouts that didn't get their cover save striped can go to ground. Do this with a libby on a bike so he can join a unit in his movement phase to pop them back up (because he is fearless). If you have azzy, they're ld10 and not to likely to run. Will all of this, you still have 700-800 points left. Take some bikes, now your opponent has more things that need cover stripped from. The point I'm trying to make is you can't look at just the scouts because the rest of the army is going to dictate how your opponent orders it by threat level.

I understand that you're not trying to be a jerk. I'm trying to get you to see beyond tau>scouts. That's not something you can say without seeing both lists. Even then, the randomness of the dice and the skill of the players can make up for perceived deficiencies in the lists. My point is that you cannot say "a" will beat "b". You cannot look at a unit in a vacuum.

I dont know, when i design a list for non friendly games I always take into account stats and rules. Dice cant be predicted, they can go either way.

What remains is therefore gear and rules. Scouts with boltguns have neither. You are using glorified guardsmen in a marine list.

Anyway, hopefully I would be proved wrong but honestly if this was a bet I would name it a black horse and bet on the tau side (provided they had a decent list).

Sorry for that its just my opinion . I have tried scout lists back when they were BS4. Granted another ruleset, but tau were more gimped back there too.

So, heres to hopping you will prove me wrong despite my logic saying otherwise

You

may be missing the most important flaw in the list. It's the banner

that makes scouts points back in this list. What's to say the opponent

wont focus down terminator squad? Even with an apoth and a libby poor

luck and unlucky positioning will put that banner in the dirt.

And

what about scatters? The six inch bubble for the banner is a tight

drop. especially if your are trying to get 4 (+) squads the buff.

That's a narrow drop. Perhaps invest in a ravenwing squad?

With that said I like it. Looks to be fun!

IMHO, the most important flaw in the list is that it is using bodies for target practice with little hope of retaliation.

Even if we assume all the marker lights miss somehow due to luck, BS3, and ap5 are not enough to hurt tau that are shooting from the 30s inches away. The boltgun by itself is not sufficient here, it lacks BS,AP And range. Plus excluding a missile launcher and a bolter there, there is nothing else. Granted you will depend on the rest of the list to do something, which will be around 800 pts left as said (about 4 squads of whatever at best) to deal with the entire tau army...Lets not forget that the glorius tau fire warrior cost a humble five points, so swarming a battlefield is nothing for the tau.

Dunno to me it continues to sound like a loosing proposition. The strength of the marines is their stats and armor, by demeaning this one plays to the xenos hands.

Eagerly expecting the results though.

EDIT: ANd lets not forget another thing: If you want to take advantage of the banner you have to scouts around the command squad.

Thats calling for epic template bombing, usually out of range too.

[shortysl]

Interesting idea, I had been wanting to playtest the interaction of dark angel scouts (camo cloaks & bolters), darkshroud and standard of devastation myself.

 

The idea of setting up a foward firebase with a 2+ cover save (assuming you can grab some ruins) that is kicking out forty bolter shots a turn is appealing.

Perhaps I'm being monumentally stupid here but how exactly are you planning on getting a 2+ cover save from ruins with Scouts? Ruins provide a 4+ cover save at best and Camo-Cloaks grant +1 to cover saves..........

 

What am I missing?

 

I ask this primarily because I too have considered using Scouts as my Troops choices instead but with Camo-Cloaks they come in at just 2 points cheaper than a Tactical Marine, who gets an additional point of WS and BS. They also both end up with the same save, but the Scouts must rely on cover to get it. It's just not worth it.

[IndigoJack]

You have to go to ground for that 2+ cover. A neat trick though is to have a fearless character join the unit to bring them up next turn.

[FarFromSam]

maybe darkshroud, or bolter defenses?  I do not believe it was explicitly stated, but that's my assumption

[shortysl]

You have to go to ground for that 2+ cover. A neat trick though is to have a fearless character join the unit to bring them up next turn.

Then Tactical marines will do the same thing behind an Aegis Defence Line.

 

I know where my loyalty lies on this one but that's just me.

[IndigoJack]

That's true, but scouts can do it anywhere. I know it sounds like I'm advocating scouts, but I'm really just trying play devil's advocate here.

[shortysl]

That's true, but scouts can do it anywhere. I know it sounds like I'm advocating scouts, but I'm really just trying play devil's advocate here.

I understand that, and I respect you doing so. To be honest I'm going to make this my last post in this thread; I have a habit sometimes of continuing with a topic long after I've said my bit and I end up adding posts that just aren't constructive.

I'm a purist at heart; I just love my Tacticals too much

[Brother Immolator]

You can also use the techmarine to bolster defenses to reach the 2++. The weakness of this build (and the darkshroud) are two:

You can pull it off for only one ruin per techmarine, and if face cover ignoring things (noise marines etc) they go out the window.

[Mattias]

 

Interesting idea, I had been wanting to playtest the interaction of dark angel scouts (camo cloaks & bolters), darkshroud and standard of devastation myself.

 

The idea of setting up a foward firebase with a 2+ cover save (assuming you can grab some ruins) that is kicking out forty bolter shots a turn is appealing.

Perhaps I'm being monumentally stupid here but how exactly are you planning on getting a 2+ cover save from ruins with Scouts? Ruins provide a 4+ cover save at best and Camo-Cloaks grant +1 to cover saves..........

 

What am I missing?

 

I ask this primarily because I too have considered using Scouts as my Troops choices instead but with Camo-Cloaks they come in at just 2 points cheaper than a Tactical Marine, who gets an additional point of WS and BS. They also both end up with the same save, but the Scouts must rely on cover to get it. It's just not worth it.

 

In my post I indicated that the combo included a darkshroud, hence 4+, improved by 1 for camo cloaks, improved by 1 for Stealth = 2+

[shortysl]

 

 

Interesting idea, I had been wanting to playtest the interaction of dark angel scouts (camo cloaks & bolters), darkshroud and standard of devastation myself.

 

The idea of setting up a foward firebase with a 2+ cover save (assuming you can grab some ruins) that is kicking out forty bolter shots a turn is appealing.

Perhaps I'm being monumentally stupid here but how exactly are you planning on getting a 2+ cover save from ruins with Scouts? Ruins provide a 4+ cover save at best and Camo-Cloaks grant +1 to cover saves..........

 

What am I missing?

 

I ask this primarily because I too have considered using Scouts as my Troops choices instead but with Camo-Cloaks they come in at just 2 points cheaper than a Tactical Marine, who gets an additional point of WS and BS. They also both end up with the same save, but the Scouts must rely on cover to get it. It's just not worth it.

 

In my post I indicated that the combo included a darkshroud, hence 4+, improved by 1 for camo cloaks, improved by 1 for Stealth = 2+

Sorry, but I'm still missing it. Ruins grant a 5+ cover save. The Darkshroud grants Stealth, making it a 4+, and the Camo-Cloaks give +1 to Cover Saves, making it a 3+??

 

I'm really not trying to be inflammatory with this, I'm interested.

 

Edit: Never mind, ruins grant a 4+ cover save, so it works out. Cool.

[cypherkk]

One thing that seems to be forgotten isn't the defensiveness of the scouts, but the offensiveness. The amount of bolters they are putting out should eliminate or effectively reduce their Combat effectiveness.

 

Even noise marines, or cover reducing tau.

 

The real threat is vehicles.

[twopounder]

 

 

 

Interesting idea, I had been wanting to playtest the interaction of dark angel scouts (camo cloaks & bolters), darkshroud and standard of devastation myself.

 

The idea of setting up a foward firebase with a 2+ cover save (assuming you can grab some ruins) that is kicking out forty bolter shots a turn is appealing.

Perhaps I'm being monumentally stupid here but how exactly are you planning on getting a 2+ cover save from ruins with Scouts? Ruins provide a 4+ cover save at best and Camo-Cloaks grant +1 to cover saves..........

 

What am I missing?

 

I ask this primarily because I too have considered using Scouts as my Troops choices instead but with Camo-Cloaks they come in at just 2 points cheaper than a Tactical Marine, who gets an additional point of WS and BS. They also both end up with the same save, but the Scouts must rely on cover to get it. It's just not worth it.

 

In my post I indicated that the combo included a darkshroud, hence 4+, improved by 1 for camo cloaks, improved by 1 for Stealth = 2+

Sorry, but I'm still missing it. Ruins grant a 5+ cover save. The Darkshroud grants Stealth, making it a 4+, and the Camo-Cloaks give +1 to Cover Saves, making it a 3+??

 

I'm really not trying to be inflammatory with this, I'm interested.

 

Edit: Never mind, ruins grant a 4+ cover save, so it works out. Cool.

 

The only flaw is the dark shroud. It's not hard to shoot down. Also, the abilities don't protect you from any flame weapons, including heldrakes. I'm not saying scouts are bad, but there are dangers to running them. The ability of cover has been substantially reduced in each edition.

[Mattias]

 

 

 

 

Interesting idea, I had been wanting to playtest the interaction of dark angel scouts (camo cloaks & bolters), darkshroud and standard of devastation myself.

 

The idea of setting up a foward firebase with a 2+ cover save (assuming you can grab some ruins) that is kicking out forty bolter shots a turn is appealing.

Perhaps I'm being monumentally stupid here but how exactly are you planning on getting a 2+ cover save from ruins with Scouts? Ruins provide a 4+ cover save at best and Camo-Cloaks grant +1 to cover saves..........

 

What am I missing?

 

I ask this primarily because I too have considered using Scouts as my Troops choices instead but with Camo-Cloaks they come in at just 2 points cheaper than a Tactical Marine, who gets an additional point of WS and BS. They also both end up with the same save, but the Scouts must rely on cover to get it. It's just not worth it.

 

In my post I indicated that the combo included a darkshroud, hence 4+, improved by 1 for camo cloaks, improved by 1 for Stealth = 2+

Sorry, but I'm still missing it. Ruins grant a 5+ cover save. The Darkshroud grants Stealth, making it a 4+, and the Camo-Cloaks give +1 to Cover Saves, making it a 3+??

 

I'm really not trying to be inflammatory with this, I'm interested.

 

Edit: Never mind, ruins grant a 4+ cover save, so it works out. Cool.

 

The only flaw is the dark shroud. It's not hard to shoot down. Also, the abilities don't protect you from any flame weapons, including heldrakes. I'm not saying scouts are bad, but there are dangers to running them. The ability of cover has been substantially reduced in each edition.

 

I agree completely that it has vulnerabilities and I don't believe it is practical to max out on scouts because of this, but I could see this combo working in support of a ravenwing army which is already including a darkshroud and the standard of devastation, as it gives you an additional cheap troop choice, boosting your numbers, that combos with the rest of the army quite well. In this army a forward firebase with a 2+ that kicks out forty bolter shots could be very useful and enemy weaponry with ignores cover will have more targets to choose between.

[Master Avoghai]

The only flaw is the dark shroud. It's not hard to shoot down. Also, the abilities don't protect you from any flame weapons, including heldrakes. I'm not saying scouts are bad, but there are dangers to running them. The ability of cover has been substantially reduced in each edition.

Actually you CAN say scouts are bad... because that's what they are.

I won't repeat myself so... => click here if you dare! ;)

[cypherkk]

So, I've been paying around with this and it's been doing pretty good. There are some exceptions though.

 

I don't have enough Bolter scouts to try to see if the devastation banner us a proper list.

 

Basically I've been running 1-2 full squads of scouts with bolters. And occasionally a five man. 2 5 man squads of snipers with ml launchers. All with camo cloaks. A devastator squad with ml's.the rest of the army is deathwing.

 

What has and hadn't worked.

 

Without more scouts the devastation banner had been replaced by fortitude. As death wing soaks most if the fire keeping them up has been necessary.

 

A chaplain with the mace of awesome has been key. The scouts have been more valuable as teleport Homers for death wing units not with azrail. I don't have enough dw knights so I haven't been able to try them.

 

I've tried flak ml's but they have let me down and at the cost of more troopers have been dropped.of course the only flyers I've gone against have been storm ravens and hell Turkeys.

 

Azrail usually deepstrikes back field with the intention of back shots on vehicles. Works as a good fire magnent and usually Tties up a unit or takes then out in cc. Then the chappy his then from the front.

 

Anti tank had Been a problem, need more cyclones, and speeders have filled that role though waiting till turn 2 is hard.

 

I'd rather have dreads in drop pods for survivability, but don't have either.

 

Soon I'll have a fortress of redemption so I'm looking forward to using that.

 

On a side now I've been very lucky I've either gone first or stole the initiative. Usually saying I'll never steal the initiative it's not possible....

[Raztalin]

Hey there all, just finished reading this thread, i'm enjoying the back and forth between alot of you! :)

 

In response to the last post Cypherkk; I've just skimmed the codex again, and was wondering how you were geting Scouts to provide the Tele Homers?  I was under the impression that this Dex our Scouts lost that ability (along with a few others).  I dont see any wargear options either for the Sgt to provide that either...

 

Cheers

[cypherkk]

Yes, I see that now. That puts a wrinkle on things.