Playing against Necrons!

[Alyssis]

Hello, fellow Angels!

I wanted to hear your opinion on a few rules from the necron codex! I've been reading through it a bit, and i wanted to see if your experience and such are the same as what i make of these..

In my group, we're playing against one Necron army.. His way of playing, is usually with at least 2-3 crypteks, and an overlord. The crypteks are all in different units, either with immortals, or warriors. All of them has the abyssal staff, and veil of darkness.. Now, from reading in his codex, it says that;

 

"Whilst you can have any number of Harbingers of a specific type, each of the Harbinger's unique wargear options can only be chosen once in each Royal Court."

For me, this means that he's only allowed one abyssal staff, and one veil of darkness pr overlord..

What do you make of this?

Next, the staff has the shroud of despair rule, and it says that the wounds are made against the target's Leadership, rather than Toughness. It also has no effect against vehicles. He has always wounded everyone on 2s, even without deathmarks, and used the instant death rule against feel no pain..

 

Also, he's wrecked countless vehicles and walkers with this..

Im pretty sure thats wrong as well then..

None of us has ever won a game against him, and im guessing these are part of the reason to it.. I dont think he's been doing it on purpose, but before i confront him, i just wanted to hear if you guys have the same definition of the rules as i do..?

 

[Memento Of Prospero]

Hello, fellow Angels!

 

I wanted to hear your opinion on a few rules from the necron codex! I've been reading through it a bit, and i wanted to see if your experience and such are the same as what i make of these..

 

In my group, we're playing against one Necron army.. His way of playing, is usually with at least 2-3 crypteks, and an overlord. The crypteks are all in different units, either with immortals, or warriors. All of them has the abyssal staff, and veil of darkness.. Now, from reading in his codex, it says that;

 

"Whilst you can have any number of Harbingers of a specific type, each of the Harbinger's unique wargear options can only be chosen once in each Royal Court."

 

For me, this means that he's only allowed one abyssal staff, and one veil of darkness pr overlord..

 

What do you make of this?

 

Next, the staff has the shroud of despair rule, and it says that the wounds are made against the target's Leadership, rather than Toughness. It also has no effect against vehicles. He has always wounded everyone on 2s, even without deathmarks, and used the instant death rule against feel no pain..

 

Also, he's wrecked countless vehicles and walkers with this..

 

Im pretty sure thats wrong as well then..

 

None of us has ever won a game against him, and im guessing these are part of the reason to it.. I dont think he's been doing it on purpose, but before i confront him, i just wanted to hear if you guys have the same definition of the rules as i do..?

 

 

You need to explain yourself more, it's too vague of a description.  You also might want to ask this in a dedicated Necron board as well.

[Alyssis]

Which part is too vague?

Im trying to find out if he is fielding his army in a way thats no legal.. For instance, he's using only one Necron Overlord.. And hes having 2-3 crypteks along with that, in a single royal court, much like our honor guards. *

As for the rules, i already wrote them.. I belive that he can only use one abyssal staff, and one veil of darkness per overlord, and not on all of his crypteks..

And also, how he wounds my marines, and DC troops, as well as walkers and vehicles, compaired to what the Shroud Of Despair says, which i also wrote..!

 

[Memento Of Prospero]

I get what you wrote, but there is no arguement in there. Everything you stated is crystal clear and is not open to debate. He is cheating, quite simply. I am just wondering why you are posting it if you know that it's obvious is all. Perhaps there was something else you were looking for.

[Alyssis]

Its the first time im reading his rules.. And to me it sounds like what im writing.. But he's been playing the other way for the last 4 months, which makes me wonder who I am to argue.. So i wanted to hear your opinions before I confronted him about it.. That i actually am right, and he's wrong.. But as you say, to me, and you, it really is clear in the text, and obviously he has been doing it wrong for all this time..!

[Demoulius]

Wouldnt jump to quickly on the "hes cheating" wagon tbh... If I renember correctly the cryptecs werent allowed the same weapon COMBOS but could certainly all have a staff or orb etc. Basicly he can wield them as a bodyguard unit or use them as "sargeants" akin to the wolf guard. I dont have the codex ready though so im not 100% sure on that part.

With staff do you mean warscythe? Because that boosts his strength and has AP2 (IIRC) but dont think his strength goes higher then 7 though.... Again: I dont got the codex handy so dont quote me on that one

With the "wounds on leadership" part I think you used your leadership in place of your toughness for calcuating rolls to wound...

But unless youve been reading through it intensely and know it in and out I wouldnt call him a cheater. Simply ask him to explain what each unit does/can do with codex in hand. If your unclear ask him to show you the ruling. Misunderstandings are easy to make, how you deal with them can quite easily either solve the issue or excalate it

[Alyssis]

I have no intention of calling him a cheater! That i want to clearify, and i never had, nor will call him one..! He has been playing this even less then i have, and i havent played for more then about 6 months..! So we are all new to this.. All i wanted from this was to find out if my understanding of the rules are correct, compaired to his, before i took this up with him, as he can be a bit grumphy sometimes..! But then again, everyone can be that..

I think i will make a similar post on the necrons forum, as they proberbly has more knowledge of their rules..!

[Morticon]

Shipping off to the rules forum. 

[knife&fork]

Hello, fellow Angels!

 

I wanted to hear your opinion on a few rules from the necron codex! I've been reading through it a bit, and i wanted to see if your experience and such are the same as what i make of these..

 

In my group, we're playing against one Necron army.. His way of playing, is usually with at least 2-3 crypteks, and an overlord. The crypteks are all in different units, either with immortals, or warriors. All of them has the abyssal staff, and veil of darkness.. Now, from reading in his codex, it says that;

 

"Whilst you can have any number of Harbingers of a specific type, each of the Harbinger's unique wargear options can only be chosen once in each Royal Court."

 

For me, this means that he's only allowed one abyssal staff, and one veil of darkness pr overlord..

 

What do you make of this?

 

Next, the staff has the shroud of despair rule, and it says that the wounds are made against the target's Leadership, rather than Toughness. It also has no effect against vehicles. He has always wounded everyone on 2s, even without deathmarks, and used the instant death rule against feel no pain..

 

Also, he's wrecked countless vehicles and walkers with this..

 

Im pretty sure thats wrong as well then..

 

None of us has ever won a game against him, and im guessing these are part of the reason to it.. I dont think he's been doing it on purpose, but before i confront him, i just wanted to hear if you guys have the same definition of the rules as i do..?

 

 

 

I think you are getting some names and terms mixed up here. Or maybe he is?

 

Taking a single HQ (not all of them though) let's you take a royal court  of 1-5 models that you can use much like wolfguard and put them pretty much where you like before the battle. As for the Cryptek upgrades you get one item included in every profile, those are fine in multiples, what you can't do is have multiples of the things you pay additional points for. 

[Alyssis]

Thats the part im a bit unclear about.. Can he have 2-3 crypteks all with the abyssal staff, and veil of darkness? Or is he limited to only one of each?

 

I do understand that he can use his crypteks as independent characters of some sort, but will they give me an ekstra victory point when i kill one, or all of them? Or do they simply belong to their unit, and therefor i only get the victory point when i destroy the whole unit?

[Interrogator-Chaplain Ezra]

Using Codex: Necrons and the latest FAQ gets us the following:

 

1: The Cryteks can all have an Abyssal Staff, but only one can have each of the other upgrades (Veil of Darkness and Nightmare Shroud).

2: You mention Deathmarks. Note that a unit of Deathmarks with an attached character cannot Deep Strike, since the character lacks that ability. The one exception would be to use a Veil of Darkness when arriving from Reserves (see the FAQ).

3: The Abyssal Staff uses the targets Leadership, even for ID purposes. This also means that if he hits a unit of Space Marines with it, you compare Strength 8 to Leadership 8 (9 if the model hit is a Sergeant). No ID there. Furthermore, it has no effect on vehicles, so if he's been using it to pop tanks, he's either cheating or lacking some critical skills at reading.

4: Members of the Royal Court are not Independant Characters. They are part of the unit they are assigned to (be that a unit of Immortals or just as part of a Royal Court if they haven't been assigned to some other unit), and as such aren't worth point on their own.

 

So yes, he's either being a cheating git, or he hasn't read his own rules. 4 months of this, as the OP says, leads me to brand the fellow a cheater.

[Alyssis]

Thank you for that last post there Ezra! Clears up alot for me! I will talk to him then, and hopefully he will be understanding to what i say, and also, i really hope that he just hasnt bothered to read his rules completly, at least compaired to the other alternative..!

[Demoulius]

You would be suprised how many people dont actually read their rules completly but stop when they think they understand what the rule does. Also if english isent your native tongue (and sometimes when it is) youd be suprised how easy it to misunderstand a sentance...

 

So yea, dont be to harsh on your buddy id say. Also ive found that its often pretty clear when someone is trying hard to be a cheater... If you dont got that vibe from him my guess is just a misunderstanding...

[Memento Of Prospero]

Just a clarification on my part : I said he was cheating, not that he was a cheater. The benefit of the doubt should always be given, until it is clear that he was knowly doing it.

[Captain Idaho]

When you read the rules you should confront him immediately. It's not an issue, you just say "here, it looks a little like you've got this wrong mate" and you have an easy conversation.

 

But basically yes, he's totally wrong.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Alyssis, on 28 Apr 2013 - 05:54, said:

Hello, fellow Angels!

 

I wanted to hear your opinion on a few rules from the necron codex! I've been reading through it a bit, and i wanted to see if your experience and such are the same as what i make of these..

 

In my group, we're playing against one Necron army.. His way of playing, is usually with at least 2-3 crypteks, and an overlord. The crypteks are all in different units, either with immortals, or warriors. All of them has the abyssal staff, and veil of darkness.. Now, from reading in his codex, it says that;

 

"Whilst you can have any number of Harbingers of a specific type, each of the Harbinger's unique wargear options can only be chosen once in each Royal Court."

 

For me, this means that he's only allowed one abyssal staff, and one veil of darkness pr overlord..

 

What do you make of this?

 

Next, the staff has the shroud of despair rule, and it says that the wounds are made against the target's Leadership, rather than Toughness. It also has no effect against vehicles. He has always wounded everyone on 2s, even without deathmarks, and used the instant death rule against feel no pain..

 

Also, he's wrecked countless vehicles and walkers with this..

 

Im pretty sure thats wrong as well then..

 

None of us has ever won a game against him, and im guessing these are part of the reason to it.. I dont think he's been doing it on purpose, but before i confront him, i just wanted to hear if you guys have the same definition of the rules as i do..?

Every Harbinger Of Despair automatically has an Abyssal Staff (it is not wargear), but he's only allowed to have one of each type of wargear per Royal Court he has in his army.

Each Royal Court can have 0-5 Crypteks and 0-5 Lords.

Any number of Crypteks may be upgraded to a Harbinger of any type.

Each Harbinger automatically gets its weapon office (e.g. Abyssal Staff, Voltaic Staff, Eldritch Lance, etc).

 

If he has 1 Overlord, he can only have 1 Royal Court, and therefore only 1x Veil Of Darkness.

If he has 2 Overlords, he can claim to have 2 Royal Courts and therefore can take 2x Veils Of Darkness.

If he has 3 Overlords, he can claim to have 3 Royal Courts and therefore can take 3x Veils Of Darkness.

etc

etc

 

The Abyssal Staff works against Ld just EXACTLY as if Ld was Toughness.

The ONLY time it automatically wounds on 2+ is when it's part of a Deathmark Squad shooting against a marked enemy.

 

The Abyssal Staff is a terror weapon and simply has no effect against vehicles of any sort, including Walkers.

 

For ALL purposes the Abyssal Staff treats Leadership as Toughness, therefore the Abyssal Staff can only cause Instant Death against units with Ld 4 or less.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Alyssis, on 28 Apr 2013 - 09:10, said:

Thats

the part im a bit unclear about.. Can he have 2-3 crypteks all with the

abyssal staff, and veil of darkness? Or is he limited to only one of

each?

So yes, he CAN have 2-3 Harbingers Of Despair all with Abyssal Staves, but only 1 may have a Veil Of Darkness if they all come from a single Royal Court.

 

 

 

 

Alyssis, on 28 Apr 2013 - 09:10, said:

I do understand that he can use his crypteks as

independent characters of some sort, but will they give me an ekstra

victory point when i kill one, or all of them? Or do they simply belong

to their unit, and therefor i only get the victory point when i destroy

the whole unit?

Crypteks and Lords attached to other squads become part of that squad.

This means some weird things, like:

a Cryptek becomes a Deathmark and gains the Deathmark rules while part of that squad, and can therefore use Hunters From Hyperspace and Ethereal Interception

a Cryptek in a Warrior squad becomes a Warrior, and even if all the Warriors in his squad die, he still counts as "a unit of Necron Warriors" for the Ghost Ark's Repair Barge special rule, and any Ghost Arks can add new Warriors to his squad even if he's the only survivor.

 

Essentially, Lords and Crypteks are just squad leaders like Veteran Sergeants.

 

 

 

 

Alyssis, on 28 Apr 2013 - 07:12, said:

I think i will make a similar post on the necrons forum, as they proberbly has more knowledge of their rules..!

Captain Idaho and I are both Necron players, and I think I can go ahead and claim that I have an uncommonly good grasp of the Necron rules (and I assume Idaho's is just as good).

We can both tell you that Necrons are incredibly powerful, but they're not THIS powerful.

This guy is either just wrong or cheating.

 

 

 

 

Approach the situation according to Hanlon's Razor -

Quote

"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity."

i.e. don't assume/accuse him of cheating. He may just be wrong and not understand why.

[Calnus]

 

This means some weird things, like:

a Cryptek becomes a Deathmark and gains the Deathmark rules while part of that squad, and can therefore use Hunters From Hyperspace and Ethereal Interception

a Cryptek in a Warrior squad becomes a Warrior, and even if all the Warriors in his squad die, he still counts as "a unit of Necron Warriors" for the Ghost Ark's Repair Barge special rule, and any Ghost Arks can add new Warriors to his squad even if he's the only survivor.

 

 

Umm, is the above true?  I've read the codex, and it is similar to Wolf Guard.  But I'm fairly certain you don't gain the properties of the unit by joining it.  You do gain any rules that say they apply to attached characters (crypteks/lord become non-independent characters, so still count that way), but you can't say that a Cryptek becomes a warrior for purposes of using rules that aplly solely to Warriors.  He is still a Cryptek, but as soon as his unit is gone, he just becomes a Character in a unit of one (cryptek unit), similar to things like Mephiston and Monstrous Creatures.

[Squirrelloid]

 

 

This means some weird things, like:

a Cryptek becomes a Deathmark and gains the Deathmark rules while part of that squad, and can therefore use Hunters From Hyperspace and Ethereal Interception

a Cryptek in a Warrior squad becomes a Warrior, and even if all the Warriors in his squad die, he still counts as "a unit of Necron Warriors" for the Ghost Ark's Repair Barge special rule, and any Ghost Arks can add new Warriors to his squad even if he's the only survivor.

 

 

Umm, is the above true?  I've read the codex, and it is similar to Wolf Guard.  But I'm fairly certain you don't gain the properties of the unit by joining it.  You do gain any rules that say they apply to attached characters (crypteks/lord become non-independent characters, so still count that way), but you can't say that a Cryptek becomes a warrior for purposes of using rules that aplly solely to Warriors.  He is still a Cryptek, but as soon as his unit is gone, he just becomes a Character in a unit of one (cryptek unit), similar to things like Mephiston and Monstrous Creatures.

 

He becomes part of the unit, so I'm certain that the warrior one works.  Ie, even if it's just him left, it's still a unit of warriors.  Just like a veteran seargent from a tactical squad still counts as a tactical squad when his squad is dead.

 

I'm not so sure about gaining special rules in the Deathmark example.  Characters becoming part of units isn't particularly clear, since the main rulebook only covers *joining* units, not becoming part of them in the way Crypteks do.  I would think any rules possessed by the *squad* would become part of the cryptek's rules, but rules possessed by the *models* would not.  At least, that's the only thing that makes logical sense.

[The Emperor's Champion]

The consistency of the logic is....odd, but it is what it is.


Crypteks joining Deathmarks benefit from Hunters From Hyperspace and Ethereal Interceptor, the caveat is that the Cryptek has to have the Deep Strike ability to use the Ethereal Interceptor rule, which means he has to have a Veil Of Darkness.

 

A Ghost Arks' Repair Barge rule targets a unit of Warriors, not Warrior models themselves. The Cryptek is part of the unit of Warriors, therefore he is a legal target.

 

 

I'd agree that gaining "unit" rules but not "model" rules makes perfect sense....unfortunately no such distinction exists, so you get things like Crypteks benefiting from Hunters From Hyperspace and Ethereal Interceptors, but not Deep Strike...

[Calnus]

I don't have my rulebook with me, but doesn't the attached character work the same way a Retinue does?  In that as soon as you kill off the unit, he reverts to being a unit of 1 (character) rather than the unit he was attached to?

 

And as far as joining vs. attaching, the attaching works like joining, but with a non-independent character.  The ability to join/leave is a property of the Independent Character rules.  A sergeant has the unit's rules because he has the same rules on his model, not because he is attached to the unit.  If you read army list entries for special rules, sergeants and the like are listed as exceptions where they are different, otherwise the unit's rules apply to all models bought for that unit.  A Crpytek/Lord/Wolf Guard has his own rules in his own entry, and there is no mechanism other than the Universal Special Rules for him to gain the ones of the unit he joins.

[Marshall Bretton]

well with wolfguard they are the same unit when it comes to kill points, so you need to kill the wolfguard as well to get the kill point for the squad he joins, he doesn't give you and extra one, and likewise if he has been split off from a wolf guard pack, you don't need to kill him to get the kill point for the wolfguard pack he came from. that would suggest to me that he is to all intents and purposes a part of that squad. however as far as i can think the wolfguard have no funky rules like the necrons seem to that would cause problems, so i can't really say what happens with them

but i would guess it works the same way for kill points at least

[Squirrelloid]

I don't have my rulebook with me, but doesn't the attached character work the same way a Retinue does?  In that as soon as you kill off the unit, he reverts to being a unit of 1 (character) rather than the unit he was attached to?

 

No, because those rules which cause him to revert to a unit of 1 are part of the independent character rules.  They don't apply if it isn't an independent character.

 

There are no universal rules which cover this situation, only codex specific rules which govern the behavior of models that can do this in the few armies where it occurs.

[The Emperor's Champion]

Necrons are their own weird thing.