Fragioso: Am I doing it wrong?

[Cockroach]

So many guys here have been saying a Frag cannon, HF, furioso in a pod is a must these days. So I've been trying it out and must say I haven't had much luck with it.

He drops down turn 1, toasts a couple of marines and gets shot to pieces next turn. Usually resulting in first blood and never making his points back.
Whats the crack then? Am I using him wrong?

[Alyssis]

In the start, i didnt have much luck either.. But after reading the rules a bit more, and learning a bit more about weaknesses and strengths, i now field him with Frag cannon, heavy flamer, and magma grapple..!

It usually resorts in me getting first blood, and the opponent having something else to focus on while i move alon on the board.. With some planning, and tactics, you put him someplace good, so they have to focus on front armor as well, that makes them have to go harder out on him..!

Also, ive played him for a long time without even knowing that he had the rending special rule, as well as that all templates have ignore cover..! Makes him even sweeter..!

[Brother apocalyptic]

He only has rensning with his talons, the regular blood fists country as dccw... I field mine with talons, meltagun and grapple and deliver him in the pod.

 

Gives me first kill in 9 out of 10 games and he takes back his points in say 7/10 games.

 

Amongst his prouder moments are: charging a warboss and 13 ard boys, killing except 1 boy on the first round of battle.

 

Being charged by 5 chaos bikers and a sorcerer and wiping them all in the first round.

 

Got charged by 3 killa kans. Ends up destroying them all in 2 rounds suffering only 1 glancing back.

 

The trick is to drop him where you are sure that he Will give you first blood. Also tis better to take the 5+ cover from the pod and ignore firing 1 of his weapons to give him a better chance of survival... :)

 

Long post but hope its good for something :)

[knife&fork]

He's talking about the fragcannon being a rending template, the claws don't have rending either... wish they would though.

[Alyssis]

Correct!

And also, my fragioso usually never sees close combat, as most of my opponnents cant handle him in CC, so they never charge him.. And in return, he usually never lives long enough to be able to assault anyway... :P

[JamesI]

I've only run a Fragioso once, with a heavy flamer out the back of a Storm Raven.  I was slightly disappointed.

 

1) Drop pods would have been better for the speed of getting him down first turn.

 

2) I wished I had a meltagun rather than the Heavy Flamer.  3 templates was kind of overkill.

[Morticon]

First off, while some people prefer the HF, im actually a much greater fan of the MG.  Also, i believe this type of dread MUST pick up a magna grapple too. 

This means your dread puts out the 2 templates and 2x S8 shots that have AP2/1 - more often than not that will net you more dead marines than the heavy flamer and will instant death paladins, mega nobs and various other things.  It also means you get to nuke tanks!! 

 

 

The fact that youre dying in turn 2 hints at a few concerns.  

The first is that youre dropping close to multiple melta guns - since its really only meltas that can harm the av13 dread.  The second is that youre not providing the enemy with more dangerous threats.  This is why i swear by Mephiston.  In turn one, with mephiston hurtling towards the enemy, and a drag dread there, the enemy has to make some tough choices - dread or death. 

 

By virtue of you having a drop dread, the enemy has to set up defensively - this means he has to castle up in one area - use that against him. When youre deploying objective markers, try and see which side of the board has most cover (on his end) and then put the markers in a place thats not there.  That means he'll need to castle up and play defensively, while you have easier access to the objectives- thats a huge strength of the pod dread.  Also, if he castles up, pick a side on which to attack - going in the middle is really no good as his whole army shoots back.  Pick a flank so only one side shoots back.

 

Also, remember that he must remove from closest first.  Most people see melta guns, and place far away.  No ways!!  Place on TOP of the melta gun- make him the closest model.  Multimelta?! Get in that dudes face.  So when the burn comes, that is the first model to go.

[knife&fork]

By virtue of you having a drop dread, the enemy has to set up defensively - this means he has to castle up in one area - use that against him. When youre deploying objective markers, try and see which side of the board has most cover (on his end) and then put the markers in a place thats not there.  That means he'll need to castle up and play defensively, while you have easier access to the objectives- thats a huge strength of the pod dread.  Also, if he castles up, pick a side on which to attack - going in the middle is really no good as his whole army shoots back.  Pick a flank so only one side shoots back.

 

I actually think it's the complete opposite, the frag cannon makes people space out, otherwise you'll get too many units/models under the templates. 

 

I used to run 3 fragiosos, normally one with heavy flamer and two with melta, all with grapples. While the ones with melta guns are more versatile I missed the heavy flamer flamer one on the occasions that I didn't take it. If you run multiples it can be nice to have at least one with flamer.

[Zynk Kaladin]

I regularly play against IG with melta vets in chimeras.  Their castle is just... DEADLY.  If I plop down first turn on my opponent's flank, I can take out a chimera or perhaps move it out of the way and nuke a russ with my 2nd fragioso.  Then I receive 3 or more melta shots easily. In this situation the only way to keep my fragioso's alive quick is to NOT ram them down my enemy's throat.  Close range meltas deal with fragiosos, battle-cannons nuke my RAS if I'm not careful, 'detta lascannons hurt Meph.

 

I suppose potentially dismounting 2 of the opponent's troop choices first turn is strategically awesome, but is the cost of two fragioso's really worth it?  I'm curious how BA deals with a list like this without sweating buckets the entire game... Thinking aloud, I suppose in this situation putting the objectives in the middle or closer to the BA table edge would be best.  Sacrificing the fragioso(s) to dismount 1 or more of their troops would REALLY hurt a mech-vet list if the enemy's troops aren't mobile.

 

Aint' nothin' like IG firepower.

[retrovertigo]

I've used mine in a drop pod several times nows, with Frag Cannon and all but once with the heavy flamer too. It has pretty much been a unit deleter every time I've used it, getting first blood in all but one game. It never seems to live beyond turn 2, but by then it's earnt it's point by claiming first blood, deleted a unit, and distracted my opponent completely as he diverts resources to kill it. The frag cannon on it's own is awesome, but with a heavy flamer too you're racking up so many hits on the same unit it's just brilliant. Put the pod in the right spot and you ought to be providing the enemy with AV13 and a cover save and at least make him work to destroy it. For me it's an auto include. 

[knife&fork]

Put plenty of pressure on that castle. Castling is suicide against a strong alpha strike, the trick for him would be to spread out juuust right so that you get penalized for not being mobile while his units stay close enough to support eachother.  

 

Having something else on the board capable of cracking transports. Ignore russes and the like at first. If he can't dismount safely the models are destroyed, if he gets blown up it's not like he can shrug it off like mounted marines.

 

As for the fragiosos position them so that you hit more than one target should they be close together. It's well worth trading one lost melta shot or a 5+ cover for doubling the amount of units hit. 

[Jorre]

Lately I have been running 2 Fragioso with Heavy flamer in a pod and 2, 5 man assault squads in a pod with a single melta and give the vet sergeant 2 infernus pistols so he can take advantage of gunslinger.

 

That way you have the flexibility to choose weather you want to nuke some armour or nuke some troops. Hell or even one of each! Also allows you to drop the troop pods on Objectives if your opponent isnt using armour.

 

Although its a costly list in kill point games!

 

Oh and yes I agree Mephiston running straight at you with 2 pods nuking :cuss in your opponents back line is the way to go!

[Cockroach]

Some great advice here. Never thought about the magna grapple before.

Interesting IG were bought up too as this was the last game I played. I felt I took a decent list but barely scraped a draw. One more turn and I wouldve been tabled. My Furioso actually went down to missile squads using 'bring it down' orders not melta guns. It managed to toast around 11 guardsmen... so barely made a dent in his force. I suppose it did give me a chance to push up my footslogging RAS though his basilisks made short work of those.

 
 

[Zynk Kaladin]

Barely getting not tabled by IG is a pretty standard outcome in my experience. I've gotten tabled so many times it's not even funny. Psychologically I've become desensitized to major early game losses. Beating a solid IG list with a BA list without getting lucky requires a lot of experience and in depth knowledge of the game Imo.

 

Sorry for the tangent. IG is my specialty haha.

[knife&fork]

You can't just take IG head on. You have to use finesse and mobility to limit the amount of fire he can use every turn. 

I've found that there tends to be a tipping point mid game where his numbers reach a critical mass and the quality of our units comes into play. Trying to keep individual units alive even if they are decimated tends to be more important compared to facing other armies. 

 

Oh, and give your target priority serious consideration before deployment. Not going after the right things in the right order will cost you the game.

 

That's really the only general advice I can give considering how much IG builds can vary. If you have a specific list that you have trouble with I'd gladly give some input on how I would tackle it.

[Unbreakable]

Lately im finding the Heavy flamer might be a bit overkill with the frag cannon. As the frag cannon already puts out 2 templates it ends up killing everything in range and then  some. Once all targets within 8" (around the length of the template) are dead no more wounds can spill over into the rest of the squad. Im thinking a meltagun will be more useful.

[knife&fork]

Lately im finding the Heavy flamer might be a bit overkill with the frag cannon. As the frag cannon already puts out 2 templates it ends up killing everything in range and then  some. Once all targets within 8" (around the length of the template) are dead no more wounds can spill over into the rest of the squad. Im thinking a meltagun will be more useful.

 

With the grapple you extend that killrange to 12"

 

Do you face a lot of Marines? I never find it to be overkill unless you really luck out on the rends, and in that case mission successful I guess?

[Unbreakable]

This is where im going wrong! Didn't think about the magna grapple extending their range. Thanks

[Demoulius]

Lately im finding the Heavy flamer might be a bit overkill with the frag cannon. As the frag cannon already puts out 2 templates it ends up killing everything in range and then some. Once all targets within 8" (around the length of the template) are dead no more wounds can spill over into the rest of the squad. Im thinking a meltagun will be more useful.

With the grapple you extend that killrange to 12"

Do you face a lot of Marines? I never find it to be overkill unless you really luck out on the rends, and in that case mission successful I guess?

Uhm... AFAIK you see if you are in range and then it doesent matter how many wounds you do but stuff dies? Kinda be kinda strange if you did 20 wounds but only 5 models are in range so only 5 can die

[tomjoad]

Lately im finding the Heavy flamer might be a bit overkill with the frag cannon. As the frag cannon already puts out 2 templates it ends up killing everything in range and then some. Once all targets within 8" (around the length of the template) are dead no more wounds can spill over into the rest of the squad. Im thinking a meltagun will be more useful.

With the grapple you extend that killrange to 12"

Do you face a lot of Marines? I never find it to be overkill unless you really luck out on the rends, and in that case mission successful I guess?

Uhm... AFAIK you see if you are in range and then it doesent matter how many wounds you do but stuff dies? Kinda be kinda strange if you did 20 wounds but only 5 models are in range so only 5 can die

Well, that's how it works. The length of a template is 8", so a model outside of 8" can never be removed as a casualty by a frag/HF dread. HOWEVER, if you include a magna-grapple, those wounds can all be extended out to models within 12", and that extra 4" can make all the difference sometimes.

[knife&fork]

You could even keep the stormbolter and extend that range to 24", very unlikely to be useful though :P

[CrimsonMajick]

Gonna have to try this. I stopped using my furioso after 6th (bad experience with blood talons and 2+ saves). Might have to give it another go.

[Xenith]

Gonna have to try this. I stopped using my furioso after 6th (bad experience with blood talons and 2+ saves). Might have to give it another go.

 

Sounds more like you let it get into combat with something it shouldnt!

 

DCCW's care not for 2+ saves. They dont like stormshields, though.

 

My one problem with dreads is the low A stat. for a marauding giant robot, they should do a bit more damage in combat. It cripples them vs hordes. The Talons alleviate this somewhat, but simply making dreads all A3 would do the job.

[The Milkman Of Baal]

I take as no one does it, is run it with 2 BF's?

[Demoulius]

Blood talons arent DCCW's as far as I know though? thought they counted as lightning claws and thus were AP3?

2 BF's do much through terminators nicely (aside from storm shields...) but your limited in attacks and dont get reroll to wound... Ive tried a fragioso once or twice and both times they flamed a squad or two with heavy casualties only to get destroyed or immobilized making them somewhat useless after that. They defenitly need support to work I feel. Either dropping a sternguard squad or another Fragiosos aside from them should increase their lifespan somewhat :) (hopefully that is...)