Blood Angels at Adepticon 2013 (Shame to the Chapter?)

[CitadelArmyGuy]

My first question: Who is Andrew Gonyo and what was his list?

 

I navigated my way to the following webpage, showing the results from Adepticon 2013.

http://www.adepticon.org/?page_id=5838

 

On the page, you can click on each header to sort by that field. Using this, I sorted by "Battle" because I assume (could be wrong) that that represents that Player's game performance devoid of Sportsmanship, painting or anything else, just pure Game Score.

 

Sorting by "Battle" the name Andrew Gonyo comes up with IG/BA as the highest performing BA player at Adepticon, out of 11 total Players who took BA at all. However, from the scores it appears Gonyo did extremely well even in the Overall Rankings.

 

A cursory Google search turns up that Gonyo was on Nick Nanavati's Team (Nanavati won Overall Champion) which also won the Team Tournament. Google goes cold however when I try to find what Gonyo's IG/BA list was...

 

Anyone have any idea and/or leads?

 

Also, it is rather sad to see that only 11 players brought the BA codex at all in a Tournament of 233 slots...

[Memento Of Prospero]

 In a game where the flavour of the month is the only thing that matters at a competitive level, it's not a surprising representation. 

 

Was the IG the Main Detachtment?

An IG force complemented with a Divination librarian and some shock troop assault marines makes sense.

[SamaNagol]

Nothing to do with Flavour of the Month. BA are just a sub-optimal Power Armour codex.

 

Would be interesting to know what BA allies he took. Presumably Meph and some DC as counter assault. Raven maybe? I doubt it was loads.

[Memento Of Prospero]

It has everything to do with it. Flyers are the name of the game, and storm ravens are not affordably spammable. If blood angels had access to storm talons, you would see more of them in competitive play.

 

Mephi is not that important to them because he can't join a blob of guardsmen and buff the hell out of them. 

[CitadelArmyGuy]

Final call to see if anyone knows how to find out what Andrew Gonyo's IG-BA list was....

In other interesting news, I ran some math on the results and thought I would share. It's fairly depressing for BA though...

Realized there is a better way to calculate Codex performance.

Each match was two rulebook missions played simultaneously, worth 10 Honor each, and each secondary objective (StW, LB, FB) was 2 Honor each. So over the course of 4 matches, Maximum Honor would be 104.

• Necron Players Average Honor: 56.8 (Highest was 96) --- 32 Players
• Tyranid Players Average Honor: 54.2 (Highest was 102) --- 18 Players
• One Player played BT, his Honor was 52 --- 1 Player
• CSM Players Average Honor: 49.3 (Highest was 96) --- 49 Players
• GK Players Average Honor: 48.9 (Highest was 78) --- 31 Players
• CD Players Average Honor: 48.1 (Highest was 80) --- 29 Players
• Eldar Players Average Honor: 48.0 (Highest was 82) --- 17 Players
• DE Players Average Honor: 46.8 (Highest was 82) --- 9 Players
• Ork Players Average Honor: 45.1 (Highest was 78) --- 17 Players
• SW Players Average Honor: 44.2 (Highest was 78) --- 20 Players
• Tau (pre-New codex) Honor: 43.7 (Highest was 60) --- 8 Players
• IG Players Average Honor: 43.5 (Highest was 82) --- 43 Players
• SM Players Average Honor: 37.3 (Highest was 78) --- 18 Players
• DA Players Average Honor: 36.4 (Highest was 68) --- 15 Players
• BA Players Average Honor: 28.2 (Highest was 82) --- 11 Players
• SoB Players Average Honor: 24.3 (Highest was 48) --- 7 Players

These are listed for ALL players who took that Codex at all, whether it was their Primary or Allied detachment.

[I am Legion]

Brutal!!!!! Geez......

[Leksington]

BA: At least we're not the Sisters of Battle

But hey, fall of 2015 is right around the corner.

[Memento Of Prospero]

Considering where the Dark Angels landed and their brand new codex, a new codex might not be want we want.

[tomjoad]

Considering where the Dark Angels landed and their brand new codex, a new codex might not be want we want.

The DAs poor showing is more due to the Heldrake rather than any deficiencies in their own book. The power level they're at is exactly where I want the next BA codex to land.

[CitadelArmyGuy]

The above list was for the Average Honor of all Players who took that codex, whether it was their Primary or Allied detachment. It looks much more grim if you view it this way:

• Necrons-Primary: 27 Players, Avg Honor: 59.1
• Tyranids-Primary: 18 Players, Avg Honor: 54.2
• CD-Primary: 16 Players, Avg Honor: 49.6
• Eldar-Primary: 10 Players, Avg Honor: 47.8
• GK-Primary: 26 Players, Avg Honor: 46.3
• Ork-Primary: 14 Players, Avg Honor: 46.3
• SW-Primary: 15 Players, Avg Honor: 44.9
• Tau-Primary: 6 Players, Avg Honor: 44.3
• CSM-Primary: 34 Players, Avg Honor: 44.2
• IG-Primary: 18 Players, Avg Honor: 42.3
• DE-Primary: 5 Players, Avg Honor: 39.6
• DA-Primary: 14 Players, Avg Honor: 38.3
• SM-Primary: 16 Players, Avg Honor: 36.1
• SoB-Primary: 4 Players, Avg Honor: 23.5
• BA-Primary: 9 Players, Avg Honor: 19.2

[knife&fork]

 

Considering where the Dark Angels landed and their brand new codex, a new codex might not be want we want.

The DAs poor showing is more due to the Heldrake rather than any deficiencies in their own book. The power level they're at is exactly where I want the next BA codex to land.

 

Exactly, GW has done a very good job of balancing the 6th ed codexes so far. We don't want to go back to the power creep of 5th.  

[Memento Of Prospero]

The Helldrake is in a 6th edition codex.

 

 

Considering where the Dark Angels landed and their brand new codex, a new codex might not be want we want.

The DAs poor showing is more due to the Heldrake rather than any deficiencies in their own book. The power level they're at is exactly where I want the next BA codex to land.

Their inability to deal with an AV 12 flyer is not a deficiency? Their dog fighter flyer can't win dog fights. Their only other anti-air option is a unit the Heldrake can alpha strike anywhere on the table when it arrives. I like the fact that the DA don't have any over the top units, but their codex is overall rather subpar in all departments. It feels like they were meant to be jacks of all trade and master of none, but honestly, they are just inept at all the critical aspects of the game.

 

I agree that the 3 tested codexes 6th are pretty good balance-wise, if you exclude flyer inequity. But you can't do that, because this edition is about air superiority.

[Niklaslinden]

 

The above list was for the Average Honor of all Players who took that codex, whether it was their Primary or Allied detachment. It looks much more grim if you view it this way:

• Necrons-Primary: 27 Players, Avg Honor: 59.1
• Tyranids-Primary: 18 Players, Avg Honor: 54.2
• CD-Primary: 16 Players, Avg Honor: 49.6
• Eldar-Primary: 10 Players, Avg Honor: 47.8
• GK-Primary: 26 Players, Avg Honor: 46.3
• Ork-Primary: 14 Players, Avg Honor: 46.3
• SW-Primary: 15 Players, Avg Honor: 44.9
• Tau-Primary: 6 Players, Avg Honor: 44.3
• CSM-Primary: 34 Players, Avg Honor: 44.2
• IG-Primary: 18 Players, Avg Honor: 42.3
• DE-Primary: 5 Players, Avg Honor: 39.6
• DA-Primary: 14 Players, Avg Honor: 38.3
• SM-Primary: 16 Players, Avg Honor: 36.1
• SoB-Primary: 4 Players, Avg Honor: 23.5
• BA-Primary: 9 Players, Avg Honor: 19.2

Oh wow.. So what does that mean? That blood angels players with blood angels as primary detachment scored less than 5 honor in each match on average? 

[Morticon]

Interesting thoughts so far, guys.  Shot for the ground work on this CAG.  

 

I do have to say though that ultra-competitive events have a circular feedback effect of perceived meta.  In events like these, the top gamers migrate with their played armies - generally speaking.  They change from army to army dependent on whats the most powerful- unless their core/base army is still competitive.  The perceived power of a codex then prompts these gamers to take their " strongest army"  - not just the army they like. That in turn leaves only the fluffier players playing their lists. 

 

While I do believe that the top 10-20% is a good general indication of codex strength, I don't believe it works as simply the other way around (the bottom 10% being an indicator of poor dexs).

 

The Nids are a great example of this, where a year or two back, they have been scoffed at as unable to win anything. With recent tournament successes with them, more people perceive them as powerful, and better gamers start taking lists of nids.  

 

I'm of the belief that while BA is not an optimised power armour dex, its still very powerful and just requires better generals at the helm.  

[CitadelArmyGuy]

I'm of the belief that while BA is not an optimised power armour dex, its still very powerful and just requires better generals at the helm.

You know I am onboard with you here mate. The BA codex has some relevant offerings for the 6ed game and if played with proven strategies and excellent fundamentals, winning is more than possible.

 

Which is why I'm sad I can't find out more about Andrew Gonyo and his matches. He had 82 Honor using IG-BA, and I'm just dying to see what his BA Allied contigent looked like.

 

I like your thoughts on the metagame Morticon. Because examining 'what happened here' is much more in depth than simple Codex Power Evaluation. Much of the numbers are influenced by Player Skill, certainly as evidenced by the Eldar's showing. "Ranked" 4th on my list, no one would think to call Eldar powerful yet there they are.

 

That's what I want for Blood Angels.

[Heiliger]

BA is still a solid dex just sub-optimal power armor so power gamers won't take them by and large. Also in a pure competitive world power armor is getting eaten alive by most new dexes. Mainly, in my opinion our troops are very expensive in 6th ed. 3+ is what made marines tough and we pay for that save and utility. The new chaos and xenos just eat 3+ by and large and don't really have to pay for a weaker save. They pay for stats that beat marines. So what we are paying for is made substantially weaker in 6th and what they pay for works very well in 6th. Only GK's work well in power armor and most GK power gamers don't buy power armor troops.

[Memento Of Prospero]

The downfall of power armour comes with fire power volume proliferation over the last few codexes. Besides the Heldrake, it's not because there are more AP 3 or better weapons, but the fact that most armies can now make you roll a ton of dice on saves with high volume, high strength weapons. If you look at the new Tau, Assault 4 burst cannons are just quite amazing. You look at DE, they have tons of splinter cannons and poisonous weapons. Necron tesla weapons are in the same boat.

 

That's also why I believe GW is trying to counter this by offering MEQ armies more and more access to feel no pain. Feel no pain has a great value to durable units, not so much to fickle units. Dark Angels have a 6 inch FnP banner, slaaneshi chaos and plague marines have it. Necrons have their protocols.

 

The problem with this is that FnP is a heavy tax to the players who require it in it's current form.

[DAwarrior43]

Gonyo is a very well known player on the East Coast and does very well. I can't remember a most of his list but his hammer unit was a big block of death company for counter charging anything that tied up his blobs.

[DAwarrior43]

I ended up playing GK/IG at Adepticon (I know I know I'm one of those guys now... :) ) I honestly wish I would have brought my Blood Angel list as it probably would have done better vs. the opponents I faced.

[Heiliger]

The downfall of power armour comes with fire power volume proliferation over the last few codexes. Besides the Heldrake, it's not because there are more AP 3 or better weapons, but the fact that most armies can now make you roll a ton of dice on saves with high volume, high strength weapons. If you look at the new Tau, Assault 4 burst cannons are just quite amazing. You look at DE, they have tons of splinter cannons and poisonous weapons. Necron tesla weapons are in the same boat.

 

That's also why I believe GW is trying to counter this by offering MEQ armies more and more access to feel no pain. Feel no pain has a great value to durable units, not so much to fickle units. Dark Angels have a 6 inch FnP banner, slaaneshi chaos and plague marines have it. Necrons have their protocols.

 

The problem with this is that FnP is a heavy tax to the players who require it in it's current form.

Yes GW is a strong believer of quantity has a quality all its own and unfortunately marines don't.

[Morticon]

The downfall of power armour comes with fire power volume proliferation over the last few codexes. Besides the Heldrake, it's not because there are more AP 3 or better weapons, but the fact that most armies can now make you roll a ton of dice on saves with high volume, high strength weapons. If you look at the new Tau, Assault 4 burst cannons are just quite amazing. You look at DE, they have tons of splinter cannons and poisonous weapons. Necron tesla weapons are in the same boat.

 

That's also why I believe GW is trying to counter this by offering MEQ armies more and more access to feel no pain. Feel no pain has a great value to durable units, not so much to fickle units. Dark Angels have a 6 inch FnP banner, slaaneshi chaos and plague marines have it. Necrons have their protocols.

 

The problem with this is that FnP is a heavy tax to the players who require it in it's current form.

 

 

I stand to be corrected- but i actually think its a 12" banner : /  They pay out their backsides for it, but its pretty good if you spam marines - which is cheap to do.

Other than that, i agree 100%.  GW have also been mitigating this by offering cheaper core troops.  

[SamaNagol]

BA have cheap troop choices for what you get. It's just what you get is no longer as useful as it once was.

 

They just need to tweak tactical marines in general, codex wide to make them more desirable.

[Morticon]

May just be a difference in our idea of cheap, I rate. I measure it in terms of efficiency and battlefield role as well as actual point level as related . 

To me 190 is not terrible for 10 jumpers- but its 10 jumpers that do little by themselves with a standard marine profile. 235 is how i usually pay for mine (2MG and a PF).  And since a jumpy assault squads primary job is to assault, they need a priest with them- maybe even a libby.  Its why DA make nice allies with 90 points for a scoring 5man with lascannon.  Thats cheap.  That scores, can stay on home plate, with maybe another squad of the same, laying down some horrible las shots, while not having to waste large amounts through inefficiency.  

 

IG are a little different. 10man squads for very little points.  Chaos, have access to the same with cultists.  That to me is cheap.  

 

Not saying we need cultist-level cheap stuff- but the same points as DA would be great.   Its why my major competitive BA stuff is usually Razor based.  The 35discount means you wind up with cheaper units that actually do something.   But, that does get boring after a while.

[SamaNagol]

For what they get, they are quite well priced. But what they get is not that much use. Thats the issue. You are paying a good rate for exactly what you need with a Guardsman. And you can buff them at an affordable rate too. Buffing BA Assault Marines is not particularly affordable. 75-100 pts for a Priest and 125 pts for a Libby.

 

Sameway Ravenwing squads are quite well priced and Chaos Bikers are excellently priced.... just what you get for that price isnt too useful in the current game.

 

I guess they aren't "Cheap" but I think that Assault Marines are relatively cheap compared to a flat rate of 14-16 for a marine. Sameway Grey Knight Strike Squads are relatively cheap at 20ppm.

 

/

 

Flyers are not flavour of the month, they are the 6th edition rules. Same way light mech was not flavour of the month in 5th, it was the meta of the edition.

[Morticon]

 

 

 

 

Flyers are not flavour of the month, they are the 6th edition rules. Same way light mech was not flavour of the month in 5th, it was the meta of the edition.

 

 

quoted for truth!