just checking IC conferring rules

[greatcrusade08]

So if i attached a character to a unit of scout bikes, do they confer the scout rules on the IC?

the rules seem to indicate they do, but they didnt in 5th, so i just want to confirm

[Fibonacci]

yes

[greatcrusade08]

excellent thanks

[angry man]

dont scout bikes also have 'infiltrate' though? as i remember, an IC without 'infiltrate' cannot join a unit with it during deployment

 

AM

[dswanick]

So if i attached a character to a unit of scout bikes, do they confer the scout rules on the IC?

the rules seem to indicate they do, but they didnt in 5th, so i just want to confirm

Yes and no.  The unit with Scout does not give the IC Scout, however the unit only needs one model with the rule to benefit from the Scout rules.  (dontcha just love 6th Ed?).

However, see below.

 

 

dont scout bikes also have 'infiltrate' though? as i remember, an IC without 'infiltrate' cannot join a unit with it during deployment

 

AM

Correct.  So a non-Infiltrate IC can not join a SM Scout Bike squad during deployment.

[greatcrusade08]

damn, well that scuppered that then.. doh

[Dam13n]

Not entirely true.  The IC could join the unit so long as the unit is deployed normally.  The IC can't join an infiltrating unit unless it also has the infiltrate special rule.

 

BRB page 121 - "...deploy their forces (apart from those kept as reserves or that chose to use their infiltrate special rule).  When both players have deployed their main force then they deploy infiltrators (as described on page 38)."

 

- implies "a unit with infiltrate is only an infiltrator if it uses that USR during deployment"

 

BRB page 38 - "...an IC without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment"

 

- There is therefore a distinction between units with the infiltrate USR and Infiltrators.  Infiltrators are units deploying using the Infiltrate USR.  Yet a unit with the infiltrate USR can choose not to deploy via infiltrate, thus are not defined as "infiltrators".

 

Under those circumstances an IC can join the unit, at which point he benefits from their scout USR (if they have it).

[dswanick]

Not entirely true.  The IC could join the unit so long as the unit is deployed normally.  The IC can't join an infiltrating unit unless it also has the infiltrate special rule.

 

BRB page 121 - "...deploy their forces (apart from those kept as reserves or that chose to use their infiltrate special rule).  When both players have deployed their main force then they deploy infiltrators (as described on page 38)."

 

- implies "a unit with infiltrate is only an infiltrator if it uses that USR during deployment"

 

BRB page 38 - "...an IC without the infiltrate special rule cannot join a unit of infiltrators during deployment"

 

- There is therefore a distinction between units with the infiltrate USR and Infiltrators.  Infiltrators are units deploying using the Infiltrate USR.  Yet a unit with the infiltrate USR can choose not to deploy via infiltrate, thus are not defined as "infiltrators".

 

Under those circumstances an IC can join the unit, at which point he benefits from their scout USR (if they have it).

But that argument is only valid if you accept that an "infiltrator" is a unit which is making use of its "infiltrate" rule.  It is equally valid to argue that an "infiltrator" is any unit capable of "infiltrating", even if you haven't currently chosen to do so.

[Dam13n]

Of course, it's another example of GW rules being easily interpreted in two conflicting ways.

 

I would still maintain that a unit isn't defined as an infiltrator unless it is actually infiltrating.  Now I don't use scout bikes myself, so this issue is not likely to affect me personally.  But if it did, and someone disagreed with my interpretation, then it's "most important rule" time.

 

The only infiltrating units I use regularly are Wolf Scouts and "Master of Deception" units for CSM and they aren't units I would attach a character to.  (or, in the case of MoD - I'd just give infiltrate to the character, he then confers it to the unit he joins - simple)

[greatcrusade08]

it was the same way in 5th though, i think most people will accept the common sense approach.

ill have to broach the subject with the regular people i game with, see what they think.

[angry man]

BRB page 38

 

 INFILTRATE

Units that contain at least one model with this special rule are deployed last, after all other units (friend and foe)

 

The USR for Infiltrate allows no option - the unit must infiltrate

 

Because of this, there can be no "it doesnt matter because ill deploy normally" - thats not an option

 

AM

[Dam13n]

That contradicts with BRB page 121, which I already quoted, which states that a unit can choose whether to infiltrate or not. It's not mandatory.

[angry man]

nowhere does it state that a unit with the Infiltrate USR may choose to deploy normally.

 

on page 121 (your quote) it says they may choose to use Infiltrate, suggesting that they may also choose not to. however, not infiltrating =/= deploying normally.

 

AM

[greatcrusade08]

nowhere does it state that a unit with the Infiltrate USR may choose to deploy normally.

 

on page 121 (your quote) it says they may choose to use Infiltrate, suggesting that they may also choose not to. however, not infiltrating =/= deploying normally.

 

AM

 

actually i dont get that logic..

 

I would ask what happens if you choose not to infiltrate? do you deploy with the rest of your army using the same set of limitations?

if so then that IS 'deploying normally' as we understand it.

The infiltrate rule doesnt have to be that specific, if the rule has been covered elsewhere (on pg 121)

[Dam13n]

Submitted to the FAQ team.

[angry man]

as far as i can see, the only other option is for the unit to be kept in reserve.

to my knowledge, there are a number of ways a unit may deploy - normal deployment, infiltrate, outflank, deepstrike and variations of deepstrike/outflank (such as deathwing/wolf scouts). outflank and deepstrike utilise the Reserves USR, leaving us with normal deployment, infiltrate and reserves.

The BRB USR wording for Outflank (pg40), Deepstrike (pg36) and Reserves in general (pg124) all allow the player the choice of whether or not to utilise them. They provide an alternative to the standard. This is not the case with Infiltrate. There is no "may" or "can", but instead a "this is how it happens" - it replaces the standard.

or maybe im reading too much into it

AM

[greatcrusade08]

 

This is not the case with Infiltrate. There is no "may" or "can", but instead a "this is how it happens" - it replaces the standard.

 

except the quoted rule on pg 121 which says units with the infiltrate USR "may" choose to infiltrate

[angry man]

but it doesnt provide an alternative - therefore you must find other instances in which alternatives are provided, such as reserves

 

you dont get to choose whether or not a USR is used, unless it states it within the USR, there is another rule you can apply instead or there is another rule which would prevent it.

 

im not allowed to shoot your land raider with a meltagun at 6", choose not to apply the Melta USR, and therefore only use 1D6 for armour pen (i may want to do this as my sergeant has melta bombs and i want to multi charge).

im also not allowed to shoot a hydras autocannons at full BS at a tactical squad, choosing not to utilise the Skyfire USR.

Khorne bezerkers dont get to choose not to apply the Furious Charge and Rage USRs to only get +1A and ignore the +1S for charging (because they want to reduce the chances of wiping out their target unit in 1 round)

 

AM

[DarkGuard]

I'm pretty sure you're looking too far into this angry man. The unit may choose to infiltrate means it gets the choice. What else to do but to also deploy normally? It's an option, along with reserves, outflank etc. It's always been like that, and this is most likely another GW oversight.

[dswanick]

I see where angryman is coming from, and i agree. The Infiltrate USR alters the "normal deployment" of a unit in several ways:

- it requires that the unit must be set up in a separate sub-step after all other units have been deployed.

- it allows a unit to be deployed outside ones own deployment zones (within certain restrictions defined by the USR).

- it confers the ability to Outflank.

A unit can choose to infiltrate (deploy outside your normal deployment zone) or deploy normally (within your deployment zone sans restrictions), thus pg.121 is satisfied, while still being deployed in the separate Infiltrators sub-step of deployment, thus satisfying the Infiltrate USR. This is consistent with the prohibition on non-Infiltrate ICs being unable to join Infiltrate units during deployment, as the IC will already be deployed during the normal wave and thus can't be "deployed within in unit coherency with" the unit which will not be deployed until the Infiltrate wave.

The only way to get around this would be to place all units in Reserve (as this wave happens in the sub-step before either "normal" or "infiltrate" deployments),but then westill have the prohibition on non-Infiltrate ICs join infiltrate units (and the semantics argument mentioned above).

[Gentlemanloser]

Indeed.

 

If you are in reserves, you don't deploy until you arrive and move onto the board.

 

In this case, you still wouldn't be able to attach an IC in reserves to a unit with the Infiltrate USR also in reserves.  As they can't join during deployment.

 

Just another example of how poorly the 6th edition rules are written.

[angry man]

"how its always been" has no bearing on this discussion. nor can we assume and guess about "GW oversights". All we have to go on (short of house rulings and gaming group agreements) is RAW

 

As it stands, the wording in the description of the USR Infiltrate does not offer the choice of whether or not it can be used. Pg121 does indeed mention that you may choose to use it but this is not enough to allow you to deploy normally - reserves (and through it deepstrike and outflank) are the only potential alternatives as they have the option of their application written in their respective USR entries

 

i apologise if ive made a meal out of trying to explain my point, but the more i think about it, the less i think i have read into too much detail. 

 

AM

[greatcrusade08]

The problem is your being far too literal IMO over a "choice" which they have allowed you to make.. but you claim they havent given you any other choice.

To me thats circular reasoning.

Sure they havent spelled it out, but its still RAW to be able to choose not to use the infiltrate USR.

 

why do you claim they must go into reserves then, where does it say this..

in normal deployment you can choose to hold any unit in reserve, not just those who have infiltrate USR.

 

please help me here, it seems your logic, isnt so.. you know.... logical

[angry man]

all units have a choice about how to deploy

-a tactical squad with no transport -- deploy normally, reserves

-a tactical squad with drop pod -- deploy normally (outside the pod), reserves (outside the pod), reserves to DS (in the pod)

-a scout squad -- infiltrate, reserves, reserves to outflank

 

in the case of the scout squad, they may choose to use their infiltrate rule, but if they dont then they must deploy by some other fashion. this cannot be normal deployment, because the USR Infiltrate takes this away and replaces it with its own specifications. this is why they must go into reserves, as they have no other alternative available

 

the way i see it, page 38 explains the rules for Infiltrate, just as page 43 explains the rules for stubborn. these arent rules that you can apply as and when you feel, because their wording doesnt allow for it.

 

page 40 says that "players can" Outflank and page 35 says a "unit can" use Fleet to re-roll charges. these USRs (and others worded similarly) are the ones where the player has a choice about their application.

 

the only other ways in which a USR can be discounted is where another rule disallows it, such as disorganised charges disallowing the Furious Charge USR, or when another rule is in direct conflict, forcing a choice between the two, such as infiltrate and reserves

 

AM

[greatcrusade08]

right, i understand your point.. this could be an interesting one.

 

a scout squad doesnt get to outflank on its own, it comes with the scout rule. lets assume we are talking about infiltrators that dont have scout.

if infiltrate replaces the deployment rule, then why does it not also replace the reserves part of that rule?

just seems to me that we are cherry picking which bits to replace and which to keep