Are the GK space marines?

[Dread]

Okay everyone, stupid question time. Are GK considered space marines for purposes of CSM veterns of the long war? In the dex, I can't find anywhere that states that the GK are space marines but just warriors for the Inquistion. SO, what do y'all think?

[IndigoJack]

For the purpose of VotLW, yes. I believe the VotLW rule in the CSM codex states as such but I don't have mine with me to check.

[Dread]

Thank you so much, you are correct, the answer is on page 28 of CSM dex designer note. We were just looking over the GK book.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Grey Knights are Chapter 666 of the Index Astartes.

[Dread]

Haha that's a hoot man. Thanks for the laugh.

[IndigoJack]

Haha that's not a joke. I'm not sure if it's still in the fluff or not but they were once known as chapter 666

[Gentlemanloser]

Pretty sure it's still there. ;)

[Panzerbjørn]

IndigoJack, on 29 Apr 2013 - 12:54, said:

Haha that's not a joke. I'm not sure if it's still in the fluff or not but they were once known as chapter 666

I was just curious, where is this referenced? In C:Daemon hunters or in C:GK?

[Jetmad]

It is in C:GK on p7, in the section titled The return. And it is mentioned in the DH codex on p62 in the forth paragraph of The Canticle of Absolution of the Grey Knights.

 

"We are Grey Knights the Hammers,

we slay the Darkness without fear.

Founded in great mistery we were,

Chapter six hundred and sixty six."

[Gentlemanloser]

It's also referenced in a lot of the old/original fluff.

[IndigoJack]

I definitely remember it from C:DH but wasn't sure if it was still in C:GK or not

[Marshall Bretton]

random factiod, that is actually a mistranslation from the original latin bible, the "number of the beast" is actually 616 when properly translated so everything saying 666 is totally meaningless

but yeah thats still in the fluff. on topic though, i thought that rule specifically stated codex space marines?

[thade]

They are "space marines" in that the process used to create them is the same (as far as we know) that is used to create any other Astartes; they don't follow the Codex, they fall outside of the Imperium's control chart (they work very closely with the Ordos Malleus, answering only to Inquisitors and themselves) but biologically they are marines. The key difference (which is rumored, though has strong support) is that their geneseed is not sourced from any of the Primarchs, but is sourced from the Big E himself.

 

This is something I've thought about often; the GK have more resources than any other SM chapter and use both "leading edge technology" (remember, this is the Imperium we're talking about) and sorcery (a highly ritualistic, very powerful method of wielding psyker powers). I find it very likely that there are some differences in the SM conversion process for GKs, even beyond the extreme indoctrination, deep memory wipe, and warding tattoos. It's just a suspicion on my part though; no citation.

 

I recommend A. D-B.'s The Emperor's Gift for an interesting look at a GK's perspective, as well as a (very brief) glimpse at their creation process and available resources as a chapter.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

This is something I've thought about often; the GK have more resources than any other SM chapter and use both "leading edge technology" (remember, this is the Imperium we're talking about) and sorcery (a highly ritualistic, very powerful method of wielding psyker powers). I find it very likely that there are some differences in the SM conversion process for GKs, even beyond the extreme indoctrination, deep memory wipe, and warding tattoos. It's just a suspicion on my part though; no citation.

Well for starters they're a Chapter made exclusively of psykers. Their training also has to involve not just warding against the taint of the warp (which would make it similar to Librarian training). They must also use the warp in ways no Librarian would ever be entrusted with. Vis a vis, their codex powers and Divination powers. Librarians generally fight Daemons by destroying their mortal form and using psychic powers to sever the realspace link. Knights have to employ a whole range of measures, because the Daemonic conflicts they get sent into involve whole hosts and some of the most powerful champions in the Warp. 

 

I really hope we get another ADB Knight book. Especially something set towards the contemporary timeline. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Just a slong as it doesn't contain Logan instantly decapitating a GKGM, before the GM can do anything. :P

 

 

 the GK have more resources than any other SM chapter and use both "leading edge technology"

 

And we don't get Storm Shields or Meltaguns. :(

[thade]

Just a slong as it doesn't contain Logan instantly decapitating a GKGM, before the GM can do anything.

If you've read TEG:

Grimnar is a bamf. A GM is necessarily a bamf...but he's not Grimnar. Grimnar got the drop on him; that's how it happens sometimes.

And we don't get Storm Shields or Meltaguns.

They have the best armor in the Imperium and wield complex weapons that really don't allow for a stormshield; stormbolter mountings are on that same arm hardpoint. They have Psycannons for the (thematically) rare times they punch through armor.

...Don't confuse game-balance decisions with thematic choices.

[Gentlemanloser]

It's purely game balance mate.

 

Or our SS toting Termies could use the same configuration as Draigo.

 

It's purely because we have +1I save Sword, and it would be bad balance to give us 2++ in CC with a 3++ in shooting. :(

 

And /meh about Logan.  He might be good.  But he's not *that* good. ;)

[thade]

And /meh about Logan. He might be good. But he's not *that* good.

I mean,

he did kill that Grand Master in one swing. So we have some evidence that he is that good. If nothing else, I think it's very likely that he's more experienced in fighting power armored combatants than the Grand Master is, if only because it's a large part of his job. Not to mention that he got the drop on him. Evidence is in: Logan swung, one dead Grand Master.

[Gentlemanloser]

Well that's just it.  I think the 'evidence' is disjointed.  And while 'canon' (:P), it sits poorly with me.

[Valerian]

"they work very closely with the Ordos Malleus"

 

Thade, they don't just "work very closely with" the Ordo Malleus, the Grey Knights are The Chamber Militant of the Ordo Malleus. The whole Chapter is IN that specific order of the Inquisition.

 

Valerian

[Gentlemanloser]

Aye, the new Codex reinforced this on page 7.

 

 

Where the other Space Marine Chapters wuld be autonomous, the Grey Knights were fully embedded in the Inquisition, and would serve as the chamber militant of that most secret of scieties

 

It's interesting to note, that there's been a subtle retcon, in that the GK are the Chamber Militant for the *entire* Inquisition.  And not just the Ordo Malleus.

 

Also backed by the inclusion of Hereticus and Xenos inquisitors in the 'dex.

[Valerian]

Ah yes, that's true; they did change that bit.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

 

It's interesting to note, that there's been a subtle retcon, in that the GK are the Chamber Militant for the *entire* Inquisition.  And not just the Ordo Malleus.

 

 

I didn't read it like that. If that's true then the recent BL 'Deathwatch' series is in conflict, because it repeatedly states the Deathwatch are the Chamber Militant of the Ordo Xenos. No word on Sisters though, that may have changed (although their connection was always more tenous; the Hereticus generally don't call on their services unless necessary because their work often involves more subtlety than the Sororitas can handle). 

 

I'm pretty sure, even if they are now the Chamber Militant for all three Ordos, they're still only going to be called in for daemonic problems. The Chapter is too busy and too precious to waste on normal conflicts. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah, but canon is in the eye of the beholder. And GW don't really care who says what with what. As long as it makes them money, of course.

I liked the Deathwatch books, the first was the better of the two. But it also had another Bangle Libby that had defeated the Black Rage and become uber.

Can't let Meph have all the fun, right?

(Edit: The Mantis Warriors and the Praying Mantidae were far more interesting though)

If the GK were supposed to be the Chamber Militant for the Order Maellus, then Ward should have said so, rather than 'of that most secret of societies'.

Which is rather plural.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

 

I liked the Deathwatch books, the first was the better of the two.  But it also had another Bangle Libby that had defeated the Black Rage and become uber.

 

 

We do not speak of those abominations. That heresy has been expunged from canon. I refer instead to the infinitely superior work by Steve Parker;

 

http://www.blacklibrary.com/warhammer-40000/deathwatch-2013.html

 

He's also done several short stores in H&B, plus in the recent 'Heroes of the Space Marines' anthology. Way better backstories, way better plot, way better characters...and it features the Exorcists! 

 

 

 

If the GK were supposed to be the Chamber Militant for the Order Maellus, then Ward should have said so, rather than 'of that most secret of societies'.

 

Well, the Ordo Malleus is considered the most top-seekrit. That's how I read it. Plus ADB's 'The Emperor's Gift' dovetails precisely into the same canon established by the codex (he explicitly mentions in the foreword how the new canon impacted on his work ie he had to start from scratch). I haven't actually seen anything overturning the Knights being a dedicated Chamber Militant for the Ordo Malleus. I mean, the Emperor set them up at exactly the same time as the Ordo Malleus, and they're linked together in purpose.