Did Draigo fall to Slaanesh?

[TrashMan]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if the Draigo vs Mortarion thing makes sense or not.

What matters is that it was supposed to make the readers go FTW. Instead it made many of them go .

Therefore it's simply badly written.

No, ti just means it clashed with the expectations and preconceptions some people had.

In this example, people had expectations that 1 GK cannot possibly defeat a demon in any circumstances. Which was false.

Question everything. What part of "everything" doesn't cover everything?

The part where people try to use it to give validity to their own theories, as it makes any bit of difference to anyone but themselves?

I can understand where poeple are coming from. All poeple hold bits of lore, setting and writing their love close to their heart, and tend to (deliberattely) forget, ignore or handwave the bad stuff.

Like Star Wars, where people pretend that the prequels never happened.

Or Star Trek, where poeple expell Enterprise or Voyager fom their minds, whenver thinking of Star Trek.

Or superhero comics, where that comic run with mad murderous batman or douchebag superman is ignored.

All of it is nothing more than a defensive strategy to help validate your love for something when confronted with bits you don't love.

"question everything" is a useless sentance, used to more easily justify any retcons. But it's superflous, as when you retcon it it was always that way and you dont' need any justification to begin with.

[Seahawk]

Yea, I already made this topic, like two months ago. 

[Judaz]

Why is there a 3 page long thread about someone that doesn't even exist. Not even the Emperor could do all that, he only defeated Horus because Sanguinius gave everything to open up a little hole in his armor.

And this Draigo guy is living IN the warp, kicking Deamon ass in a world that they rule? Surely Draigo is a bad joke, right?

 

Right?

[boreas]

Heck, we debate the business model of a company we haev no imfluence on for 6 pages. Or whether a fictitious weapon cauterizes wounds...

 

It's because the real world is just not as fun :)

 

My view on this: it's Mythology. So it is allowed to be out of whack. You've got mythological heroes beating Gods. But then, you have those same Gods wielding lightning and moving tectonic plates. That makes no sense, but it's cool. So yes, in my view, Draigo did all those things. Maybe Mortarion was taken by surprise, maybe he was tired that day, who cares... And then, maybe he fell. Maybe it's a ruse. Maybe he'll rise again, like a sword being tempered, his spirit never truly broken because no Grey Knight ever fell... completely.

 

That's why I love 40k :)

[Skylifter]

Maybe Mortarion was ill. 

[boreas]

Maybe Mortarion was ill. 

Maybe he was fed some penicillin or something :)

[TrashMan]

Why is there a 3 page long thread about someone that doesn't even exist. Not even the Emperor could do all that, he only defeated Horus because Sanguinius gave everything to open up a little hole in his armor.

And this Draigo guy is living IN the warp, kicking Deamon ass in a world that they rule? Surely Draigo is a bad joke, right?

 

Right?

 

 

HERESY!

The Emperor would kick all kind of ass.

[TrashMan]

Maybe Mortarion was ill.

Maybe he was fed some penicillin or something

Or maybe, being a demon he is especially vulnerable to Grey Knights.

A master daemonslayer, a Grand Master always wears Terminator Armor and wields a force weapon in combat, and is also a powerful Psyker. Few, if any, Daemons have been able to stand against a Grand Master of the Grey Knights and survive.

It's like people complaning that a vampire was defeated by a normal man, when a vampire is faster, stronger, etc.....except that man is a vampire hunter with garlic, crosses, holy water and friggin sunlight farting power.

If any single marine can stand toe-to-toe with powerfull demons, it's a GK. Because it makes sense for them. Their very presense is painfull to demons.

[Sigvard]

 

 

 

Maybe Mortarion was ill. 

 

Maybe he was fed some penicillin or something :)

 

Or maybe, being a demon he is especially vulnerable to Grey Knights.

 

A master daemonslayer, a Grand Master always wears Terminator Armor and wields a force weapon in combat, and is also a powerful Psyker. Few, if any, Daemons have been able to stand against a Grand Master of the Greys Knights and survive.

 

It's like people complaning that a vampire was defeated by a normal man, when a vampire is faster, stronger, etc.....except that man is a vampire hunter with garlic, crosses, holy water and friggin sunlight farting power.

 

If any single marine can stand toe-to-toe with powerfull demons, it's a GK. Because it makes sense for them. Their very presense is painfull to demons.

This is the exact point I made to my Death Guard playing friend, the existense if Draigo in itself an anethema to a Daemon and it also brings me to a point my girlfriend made who is a Khorne worshipping traitor, everything cannot simply be in the favour of Chaos simply because they are Chaos, or because they are destined to win, there has to be a balance struck for the forces of order. So with all the Loyal primarchs dead or missing and the universe still being terrorised by the Demon Primarchs, Abaddon and his ilk, Greator Demons and the ever constant fall of chapters to the unholy gods, why can there not be a guy who is so pure of spirit and tempered in his faith in the Emperor that he is incorruptable and can live in the torturous realm of the warp knowing the emperor will protect him, I chose to believe that he has not fallen and that there is something more at work in the rich tapestry of 40k than the depressing and inevitable fall to the ruinous powers.

[Skylifter]

Guys, when you reply to "Maybe Mortarion was ill" with a serious answer, that is probably a strong indication that you are taking something here waaayyyy to seriously. 

 

So some of us think that the Draigo story was OTT and ridiculous, some think it was fine, and some love it. That's the way with thinks. Do you really expect the others to change their opinions? Does it really matter to you whether they do?

[Deus de Mortalis]

I don't care how pure of faith and incorruptable someone is, that isn't going to stop an axe from taking off their head. I mean, Sanguinius got his butt beat by a bloodthirster, in the real universe. The entire Blood Angels legion was exhausted and won a narrow and bloody victory over a demonic horde. I mean come on, we have plenty of fluff (outside of the GK codex) of the GK dying in droves fighting against daemons outside of the warp. But somehow Draigo kicks bloodthirsters' butts and vanquishes legions of daemons all by himself while inside the warp, where the daemons are vastly more powerful? I guess he just has a little more faith than Sanguinius did? Maybe he is just a little more incorruptable than his fellow incorruptable GK?

 

And honestly, according to the codex, the GK seem like more of a threat to the imperium than a help to it. They execute their imperial army comrades after every battle? The supposedly super pure and incorruptable GK slaughter their allies who are even more pure and incorruptable than them and then cover themselves in their blood? And then really the most egregious of all, they annhiliate any imperial world where there might have been a rumor that the imperium has an anti-demon military force? These guys think they are pure but they are just worshipers of Khorne, or in Kaldor Draigo's case, a worshiper of Slaanesh.

 

Let's be real. All the fluff in the GK dex is just a bunch of over the top fan fiction that should have never made it into print in something as official as a codex, let alone a bad Black Library short story. The little easter egg of a gray colored space marine lost in the warp and bowing to Slaanesh is just a shout out saying that at least someone else at GW feels our pain over the ridicuous crap that Ward wrote.

[Sigvard]

Arguing whether more faith protects you in a world whether faith is as tangible as the sword that cuts your arm off seems relatively mute. Also isn't Sangunias part of a huge conspiracy about falling to chaos, so isnt arguing his faith was more a dangerous game?

 

I think saying the GK are over exaggerated is crazy especially when there is dramatic exaggeration in almost every book. So in light of it all i agree with the second most recent post in that people's opinions are never going to change and it is right that they do not.

 

I like to believe Kaldor has not turned and that he has done the things mentioned in his Codex entry because I find the idea of it awesome. I have never been a lover of chaos so having guy who can tear them a new is epic.

[Deus de Mortalis]

Arguing whether more faith protects you in a world whether faith is as tangible as the sword that cuts your arm off seems relatively mute. Also isn't Sangunias part of a huge conspiracy about falling to chaos, so isnt arguing his faith was more a dangerous game?

 

Since when is faith in 40k that powerful? And what are you talking about regarding Sanguinius?

The EMPEROR got beat down by demonic Horus in orbit over Terra. Kaldor Draigo beats down all the demonic hordes sent against him by the Chaos gods while in the freaking warp. If only the Emperor had as much "faith" as Draigo, maybe Horus wouldn't have been able to hurt him...

 

I think saying the GK are over exaggerated is crazy especially when there is dramatic exaggeration in almost every book. So in light of it all i agree with the second most recent post in that people's opinions are never going to change and it is right that they do not.

 

I like to believe Kaldor has not turned and that he has done the things mentioned in his Codex entry because I find the idea of it awesome. I have never been a lover of chaos so having guy who can tear them a new is epic.

 

I used to think like that about 40k. I always wanted there to be supermen that were so powerful that nothing could bring them down. But not even the greatest heroes in all of the 40k universe were that powerful. Even the Emperor and the Primarchs all fell. But then I began to like that. We always want all-powerful heroes, but they don't exist. In this case 40k is just a reflection of the real world. There has never been a perfect hero in all of history, and there will never be one either. Not even the Chaos gods are all-powerful. There is nobody and no entity in all of the 40k universe that is flawless and is undefeatable. Really, the first and only "perfect" being at the present time in the 40k fluff is Draigo. He is a mortal man who is unable to be defeated by some of the most powerful entities in the galaxy, on their home turf. Some 40k fluff is a bit over the top, but even within the over the top fluff of the GK codex, Kaldor Draigo really stands out as something ridiculous. We all know that the bit of fluff in the Chaos Daemons codex is no coincidence. It is a way to help us explain away the ridiculousness of the Draigo fluff and how it defies all logic even in the fantasy/science-fiction universe of 40k.

[Gentlemanloser]

The Emperor only fell to Horus as he was holding back, and thought his son was still capable of redemption.

 

At the end, when he saw redemption wasn't an option (and that the capability of Horus lasping back into the hands of Chaos was likely), he instantly and irrevocably annhilated Horus.  In an instant.  In the blink of an eye, without there being anything Horus could have done to prevent it.

 

The Emperor could have done that from the start.

[Deus de Mortalis]

The Emperor only fell to Horus as he was holding back, and thought his son was still capable of redemption.

 

At the end, when he saw redemption wasn't an option (and that the capability of Horus lasping back into the hands of Chaos was likely), he instantly and irrevocably annhilated Horus.  In an instant.  In the blink of an eye, without there being anything Horus could have done to prevent it.

 

The Emperor could have done that from the start.

 

Yes, the Emperor held back from killing Horus. But during that time, Horus mortally wounded the Emperor. If the Emperor had the same sort of faith to protect him that Kaldor Draigo has, the Emperor would have been immune to Horus's attacks.

[Visitor13]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if the Draigo vs Mortarion thing makes sense or not.

What matters is that it was supposed to make the readers go FTW. Instead it made many of them go .

Therefore it's simply badly written.

No, ti just means it clashed with the expectations and preconceptions some people had.

In this example, people had expectations that 1 GK cannot possibly defeat a demon in any circumstances. Which was false.

And seeing as those preconceptions were rooted in well-known precedent like the fluff for the 1st War for Armageddon, and in the internal logic of the Wh40k universe, Ward's 'retcon' should have specified how it was possible for a single GK to defeat a living work of the Emperor's own hands.

It didn't, and so it is bad writing.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Yes, the Emperor held back from killing Horus. But during that time,
Horus mortally wounded the Emperor. If the Emperor had the same sort of
faith to protect him that Kaldor Draigo has, the Emperor would have been
immune to Horus's attacks.

 

The Emperor held back everything, and from the start of the fight.

 

He even held back his defense.  Let his guard down if you will.

 

Draigo.  Well he never holds back. And never lets his guard down.  Ever.  ;P

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Can the mods just kill this already? I know its become a monthly, sometimes weekly tradition to make Draigo-hate-circlejerk threads, but really. Get over it. 

[Gentlemanloser]

But, no one's screamed WWWAAAAAAARRRRRRDDDDD!!!!  yet.

 

Oh.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Haha self-fulfilling prophecy. We've reached the traditional page 3 of bile. Thade or one of the others should just lock it down now. 

[Inquisitor Fox]

Bile or not, thus far it is rules abiding bile (unlike Fabius...)

 

Rest assured, you are being watched.  The Inquisition is everywhere ;)

[TrashMan]

 

Since when is faith in 40k that powerful? And what are you talking about regarding Sanguinius?

The EMPEROR got beat down by demonic Horus in orbit over Terra. Kaldor Draigo beats down all the demonic hordes sent against him by the Chaos gods while in the freaking warp. If only the Emperor had as much "faith" as Draigo, maybe Horus wouldn't have been able to hurt him...

 

The Big E was holding back, and when he stopped, the 4 gods of Chaos crapped their pants and ran away. Tehy retreated from Horus because they knew the Emperor attack can hurt them badly.

 

 

Also Sanguinius eventually beat the crap out of that Greater Demon. Yes, in their first encoutner the demon got hte better of him. But so what?

 

I love it how all of this complains don't even give a frak abotu any circumstances. To you lot power is a flat number, a compeletly binary, universal thing that doesnt' change depending on any situation.

Was Sanguinius tired? Surprised? Was he outnumbered? Etc, etc.. A million factors go into such things, but you all seem to want to simplify them into "A is stronger than B, therefore A will always, always defeat B, because I say so"

 

And Sanguinius may be a primarch, but he isn't made/designed/trained to fight specificly demons. Why is it so hard to grasp that GK's are simply that much better agaisnt demons.

Sanguinius would probably beat the crap out of Draigo, but Draigo is better against demons.

 

 

 

I like to believe Kaldor has not turned and that he has done the things mentioned in his Codex entry because I find the idea of it awesome. I have never been a lover of chaos so having guy who can tear them a new is epic.

I used to think like that about 40k. I always wanted there to be supermen that were so powerful that nothing could bring them down. But not even the greatest heroes in all of the 40k universe were that powerful. Even the Emperor and the Primarchs all fell. But then I began to like that. We always want all-powerful heroes, but they don't exist. In this case 40k is just a reflection of the real world. There has never been a perfect hero in all of history, and there will never be one either. Not even the Chaos gods are all-powerful. There is nobody and no entity in all of the 40k universe that is flawless and is undefeatable. Really, the first and only "perfect" being at the present time in the 40k fluff is Draigo. He is a mortal man who is unable to be defeated by some of the most powerful entities in the galaxy, on their home turf. Some 40k fluff is a bit over the top, but even within the over the top fluff of the GK codex, Kaldor Draigo really stands out as something ridiculous. We all know that the bit of fluff in the Chaos Daemons codex is no coincidence. It is a way to help us explain away the ridiculousness of the Draigo fluff and how it defies all logic even in the fantasy/science-fiction universe of 40k.

 

 

And not even the Demons or Demon Primarchs are all-powers. Your own argument bites you in the ass.

 

No Draigo doesn't really "stand out" that much. It's all in your head. It stands out TO YOU because you do not approve of that fluff. Buutt.  when you're favorite chapter master or character does super-awesome-impossible stuff, then it's all OK.

[TrashMan]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if the Draigo vs Mortarion thing makes sense or not.

What matters is that it was supposed to make the readers go FTW. Instead it made many of them go .

Therefore it's simply badly written.

No, ti just means it clashed with the expectations and preconceptions some people had.

In this example, people had expectations that 1 GK cannot possibly defeat a demon in any circumstances. Which was false.

And seeing as those preconceptions were rooted in well-known precedent like the fluff for the 1st War for Armageddon, and in the internal logic of the Wh40k universe, Ward's 'retcon' should have specified how it was possible for a single GK to defeat a living work of the Emperor's own hands.

It didn't, and so it is bad writing.

It's not...because frak the Frist War of Armageddon. The internal logic of the universe constantly changes.

I find it funny how peopel here constantly keep trotting out the theory that there is no canon, there everything is lies and propaganda....up untill the point they don't like something.

So no, a retcon precisely means that you don't have to explain eanything, because it was always that way. That's what retcon means.

And guess what - GK's are a work of the Emperors own hands too. And unlike the Primarchs, who were made to lead, the GK's were made to fight demons. GK's are +10 vs. demons. And guess what a demon primarch is? A DEMON.

There's a canonical fact for you to ponder upon.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

I love it how all of this complains don't even give a frak abotu any

circumstances. To you lot power is a flat number, a compeletly binary,

universal thing that doesnt' change depending on any situation.

Was Sanguinius tired? Surprised? Was he outnumbered? Etc, etc.. A

million factors go into such things, but you all seem to want to

simplify them into "A is stronger than B, therefore A will always,

always defeat B, because I say so"

 

 

Now apply that to Driago.

 

Does he sleep in the Warp?  What does he eat?  *How* did he reforge his Sword?

 

Don't you think at least one of the Denisons of the Warp would attack Draigo when he was otherwise engaged?  Like sitting on the golden 'throne'?

[boreas]

I think, GL, that you're taking the whole thing too,litteraly! It's like my wife (who's a sci-fi, superhero, etc fan like me!) asking "why can Superman fly?". My Answer was: because it's not a documentary :)

 

The warp is not fixed thing, even in GW's "canon". At times, it's simply a vast ocean of colors with "swimming" monsters in it. It has no time-space reality. At other times, it's more like a Lovecraftian "other place" with some geographical reality (nurgle jungles, cities). Maybe Draigo doesn't have to eat or sleep because of the alternate physics. Maybe he can manipulate the "pure" warp into reforging his sword (he uses some Bloodthirster's axe for metal, IIRC). Did he even carve his pal's name in Mortarion's heart? I don't he did, as that would be a ridiculous thing to do. If you were a grey knight with a knife and access to Mortarion's heart, would you spend the next 1-2 minutes painstakingly scribing a name? Seriously, have a friend move a piece of steak rythmically while you scribe the word "G-E-N-T-L-E-M-A-N-L-O-S-E-R" into it to see if you can get any results :)

 

No, I didn't try :)

 

I think the Fluff of Draigo is like the movie Beowulf (where he swims miles in a seastorm while fighting 10 sea dragons with his bare hands). It's meant to give a direction to the story. To show the reader that at it's apex, a GKGM can be so powerful as to be almost ridiculously so. And because the codex writer doesn't have 400 pages to slowly build those wonderful mutlifaceted characters like ADB can, he resorts to caricatural myth. Does it lack subtlety? Yes. Is it clusmy? A bit yes. Is it OTT warhammer fun? I like to think so :)