Did Draigo fall to Slaanesh?

[TrashMan]

 

 

I love it how all of this complains don't even give a frak abotu any

circumstances. To you lot power is a flat number, a compeletly binary,

universal thing that doesnt' change depending on any situation.

Was Sanguinius tired? Surprised? Was he outnumbered? Etc, etc.. A

million factors go into such things, but you all seem to want to

simplify them into "A is stronger than B, therefore A will always,

always defeat B, because I say so"

 

 

Now apply that to Driago.

 

Does he sleep in the Warp?  What does he eat?  *How* did he reforge his Sword?

 

Don't you think at least one of the Denisons of the Warp would attack Draigo when he was otherwise engaged?  Like sitting on the golden 'throne'?

 

 

How the hell should I know? Sorcery?

It's the warp...time is kinda funky out there. And so is space.

 

Maybe from Draigo's perspective he was only in the warp for a few hours?

Things can appretnly hide in the warp, so maybe the demons don't attack him all at once because tehy dont' know where he is or can't reach him (does travel time even exist in the warp?).

Maybe the chaos gods are entertained by watching him run around?

 

 

Another poster comented that Draigos fluff is written in the style of old legends and myths. Which is true. Different pieces are written in a different style, and thus approaching them all the same is sheer folly.

Just accept it and move on.

[Gentlemanloser]

Why don't you then apply that logic to the story of Sanguinus?

[thade]

I think the Fluff of Draigo is like...Beowulf ....

 

I actually rather like this sentiment; thematically, many of the heroes of the Imperium are not unlike the heroes in ancient epics: supermen in body and mind, confronted with some rather difficult philosophical conundrums, like Gilgamesh encountering the gods during the flood. Each of the Primarchs are supermen that confront more than a few philosophical conundrums: is the Emperor doing the right thing? Are they doing the right thing by supporting or opposing him? How do they deal with their brothers that chose differently from they? The Big E is the best 40K example of this, I feel...he's more deity than man yet his entire goal is to teach humanity to question everything; to submit their beliefs and superstitions to experiment and reject that which doesn't agree with their results. While he is superhuman in every way imaginable, he's still unable to save us all. Rather, he fails pretty spectacularly as now virtually all of humanity worships him as a deity and fears words like "experiment" and "science" .

 

In all cases, the entire point is just like Superman (Kal-el) in that their powers do not directly address the real problems they're faced with. If anything, it's their power, privilege, and position that sets them up against their very difficult choices.

 

Draigo falls well short of this because, while he's a superman-beyond-supermen, he doesn't come up against any real philosophical questions; he's just Chuck Norris-ing his way through the Warp, Beowulf vs. Grendel style, eschewing points of contention like his relationship with Enkidu, or Grendel's mother, or - really - anything that would tell us about Draigo's character.

[Deus de Mortalis]

 

 

Since when is faith in 40k that powerful? And what are you talking about regarding Sanguinius?

The EMPEROR got beat down by demonic Horus in orbit over Terra. Kaldor Draigo beats down all the demonic hordes sent against him by the Chaos gods while in the freaking warp. If only the Emperor had as much "faith" as Draigo, maybe Horus wouldn't have been able to hurt him...

 

The Big E was holding back, and when he stopped, the 4 gods of Chaos crapped their pants and ran away. Tehy retreated from Horus because they knew the Emperor attack can hurt them badly.

 

 

Also Sanguinius eventually beat the crap out of that Greater Demon. Yes, in their first encoutner the demon got hte better of him. But so what?

 

I love it how all of this complains don't even give a frak abotu any circumstances. To you lot power is a flat number, a compeletly binary, universal thing that doesnt' change depending on any situation.

Was Sanguinius tired? Surprised? Was he outnumbered? Etc, etc.. A million factors go into such things, but you all seem to want to simplify them into "A is stronger than B, therefore A will always, always defeat B, because I say so"

 

And Sanguinius may be a primarch, but he isn't made/designed/trained to fight specificly demons. Why is it so hard to grasp that GK's are simply that much better agaisnt demons.

Sanguinius would probably beat the crap out of Draigo, but Draigo is better against demons.

 

 

Ignoring the circumstances? Are you kidding me? Draigo is alone in the warp endlessly fighting off greater daemons and legions of lesser daemons everywhere he roams. The GK, and actually everyone in general, have lots of problems fighting daemonic incursions in the material universe. GK die all the time fighting daemons, and they never fight alone. They sometimes have massive armies to fight daemonic incursions. But daemons are weaker in the material universe than in the warp. In the warp nobody can be sure of anything. Tricks can be played, things that are not real can be seen. Daemons in the warp have all of their power. I mean seriously, Mortarion killed Draigo's predecessor. Mortarion is a daemon prince, not a greater daemon, and this was in the material universe, where daemons' powers are weakened compared to in the warp. So you can talk about how powerful the GK are against daemons all you want, but they are not invincible and even their grand masters get bloodied and killed. Why do you ignore these circumstances?

 

 

I like to believe Kaldor has not turned and that he has done the things mentioned in his Codex entry because I find the idea of it awesome. I have never been a lover of chaos so having guy who can tear them a new is epic.

I used to think like that about 40k. I always wanted there to be supermen that were so powerful that nothing could bring them down. But not even the greatest heroes in all of the 40k universe were that powerful. Even the Emperor and the Primarchs all fell. But then I began to like that. We always want all-powerful heroes, but they don't exist. In this case 40k is just a reflection of the real world. There has never been a perfect hero in all of history, and there will never be one either. Not even the Chaos gods are all-powerful. There is nobody and no entity in all of the 40k universe that is flawless and is undefeatable. Really, the first and only "perfect" being at the present time in the 40k fluff is Draigo. He is a mortal man who is unable to be defeated by some of the most powerful entities in the galaxy, on their home turf. Some 40k fluff is a bit over the top, but even within the over the top fluff of the GK codex, Kaldor Draigo really stands out as something ridiculous. We all know that the bit of fluff in the Chaos Daemons codex is no coincidence. It is a way to help us explain away the ridiculousness of the Draigo fluff and how it defies all logic even in the fantasy/science-fiction universe of 40k.

And not even the Demons or Demon Primarchs are all-powers. Your own argument bites you in the ass.

 

No Draigo doesn't really "stand out" that much. It's all in your head. It stands out TO YOU because you do not approve of that fluff. Buutt. when you're favorite chapter master or character does super-awesome-impossible stuff, then it's all OK.

 

 

No, you clearly don't understand what I am saying. Nobody in the 40k universe is all-powerful or invincible. The Emperor thought he could best the Chaos gods, but they got the better of him. The Chaos gods are powerful, but it is hard for them to do anything directly in the material universe and they are not invincible. One way or another, all the primarchs were defeated. They either died, were corrupted, or ran away crying.

 

Draigo stands out because he is a mortal, a space marine, up against the greatest forces in the universe on their home turf, and is undefeated. What a joke.

 

If the only argument you have left is that other characters in 40k do "super-awesome-impossible stuff" then you really don't have a leg to stand on. At least you admit the "impossible" aspect of Draigo's fluff.

[TrashMan]

Why don't you then apply that logic to the story of Sanguinus?

 

 

Who sez I'm not already?

 

And as I said before - it depends on how it is written. You don't approach a novel the same way as a fluff blurb.

 

 

 

In all cases, the entire point is just like Superman (Kal-el) in that their powers do not directly address the real problems they're faced with. If anything, it's their power, privilege, and position that sets them up against their very difficult choices.

 

Draigo falls well short of this because, while he's a superman-beyond-supermen, he doesn't come up against any real philosophical questions; he's just Chuck Norris-ing his way through the Warp, Beowulf vs. Grendel style, eschewing points of contention like his relationship with Enkidu, or Grendel's mother, or - really - anything that would tell us about Draigo's character.

 

Not really. Most primarchs were like Draigo or any other figure of legend - especially early in the fluff. Think about the arly depictions of Russ or Guilleman. Of course, once they go books/novels published specificly about them, that gave depth to them. Draigo has no such books...yet.

 

 

 

 

Daemons in the warp have all of their power. I mean seriously, Mortarion killed Draigo's predecessor. Mortarion is a daemon prince, not a greater daemon

 

So? The power of demon is not fixed. You speak of Demon Princes as they are redicolously more powerfull than the original primarch. They're not. Near as I can tell, they are roughly the same, except immortal.

 

 

So you can talk about how powerful the GK are against daemons all you

want, but they are not invincible and even their grand masters get

bloodied and killed. Why do you ignore these circumstances?

 

And demons also get killed and banished, even greter ones and demon princes. Why do you ignore that?

 

 

 

Draigo is alone in the warp endlessly fighting off greater daemons and legions of lesser daemons everywhere he roams.

 

Is he now?

You said it yourself - the warp is a strange place.

 

 

There are people out here who hate Ward. And Draigo. It is their pet peeve. Their berserk bottun.

 

I want you to understand one thing - people that think like you are my personal Matt Ward. My berserk bottun.

 

 

No, you clearly don't understand what I am saying. Nobody in the 40k universe is all-powerful or invincible. The Emperor thought he could best the Chaos gods, but they got the better of him. The Chaos gods are powerful, but it is hard for them to do anything directly in the material universe and they are not invincible. One way or another, all the primarchs were defeated. They either died, were corrupted, or ran

away crying.

 

Draigo stands out because he is a mortal, a space marine, up against the greatest forces in the universe on their home turf, and is undefeated.

What a joke.

 

 

 

Which means EVERYONE must always and constantly fail? Now that is a joke.

 

You say it yourself - no one is invincible. And yet you complain when one side gets a string of victories, but I hear no complains when the other one does. Chaos has had a long list of victories where it matters. Why don't you complain about Horus and his rebellion?

 

You EXPECT Draigo to fail. You WANT him to fail. And when that doens't happen you rage.

 

 

 

If the only argument you have left is that other characters in 40k do "super-awesome-impossible stuff" then you really don't have a leg to stand on. At least you admit the "impossible" aspect of Draigo's fluff.

 

I admit to nothing.

But I do have a leg to stand on. That you think I don't is if no concern of mine.

 

 

 

 

"One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness, One last blade

forged in defiance of fate, Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered, And

my final gift to the species I failed."

[Justicar Enethys]

More anti-Draigo/Ward, Nurgle spawned bile. It's rare to wish for a Melta on a thread, but . . . .

[boreas]

I think people need to accept that there are different styles to fluff writing. Draigo's might not be the most popular. But I think it's pretty good in the sense that it provides this extraordinary image of the apex of Grey Knights and the possibilities they represent. The function of that piece is very different than The Emperor's Gift's function.

 

I think that BL books, for all their great qualities, have spoiled us a bit. They render a grand tragedy in an intensely grimdark setting, full of great characters. People seem to have problems accepting heroic-scale fluff or even funny fluff (I still remember my first Lizardmen codex with Characters like Tic-tak-to!)

[Hellios]

I think people need to accept that there are different styles to fluff writing. Draigo's might not be the most popular. But I think it's pretty good in the sense that it provides this extraordinary image of the apex of Grey Knights and the possibilities they represent. The function of that piece is very different than The Emperor's Gift's function.

 

I think that BL books, for all their great qualities, have spoiled us a bit. They render a grand tragedy in an intensely grimdark setting, full of great characters. People seem to have problems accepting heroic-scale fluff or even funny fluff (I still remember my first Lizardmen codex with Characters like Tic-tak-to!)

 

There is a time and a place for everything. WFB and 40K are full of references and jokes. That is okay. That doesn't justify terrible writing.

[Visitor13]

So Boreas, should the entirety of the GK codex be read as a heroic epic?

[Visitor13]

At the end of the day it doesn't matter if the Draigo vs Mortarion thing makes sense or not.

What matters is that it was supposed to make the readers go FTW. Instead it made many of them go .

Therefore it's simply badly written.

No, ti just means it clashed with the expectations and preconceptions some people had.

In this example, people had expectations that 1 GK cannot possibly defeat a demon in any circumstances. Which was false.

And seeing as those preconceptions were rooted in well-known precedent like the fluff for the 1st War for Armageddon, and in the internal logic of the Wh40k universe, Ward's 'retcon' should have specified how it was possible for a single GK to defeat a living work of the Emperor's own hands.

It didn't, and so it is bad writing.

It's not...because frak the Frist War of Armageddon. The internal logic of the universe constantly changes.

I find it funny how peopel here constantly keep trotting out the theory that there is no canon, there everything is lies and propaganda....up untill the point they don't like something.

So no, a retcon precisely means that you don't have to explain eanything, because it was always that way. That's what retcon means.

And guess what - GK's are a work of the Emperors own hands too. And unlike the Primarchs, who were made to lead, the GK's were made to fight demons. GK's are +10 vs. demons. And guess what a demon primarch is? A DEMON.

There's a canonical fact for you to ponder upon.

"It's not...because frak the Frist War of Armageddon. The internal logic of the universe constantly changes"

So yeah, bad writing it is.

"I find it funny how peopel here constantly keep trotting out the

theory that there is no canon, there everything is lies and

propaganda....up untill the point they don't like something."

And that's aimed at who, exactly? Cause I never said anything like that.

"And guess what - GK's are a work of the Emperors own hands too. And

unlike the Primarchs, who were made to lead, the GK's were made to fight

demons. GK's are +10 vs. demons. And guess what a demon primarch is? A

DEMON.

There's a canonical fact for you to ponder upon."

Nah. The marines may have been designed by the Emp, but then they were mass produced. It's the Primarchs who are his personal work, singular works of art as opposed to mass produced stuff. And I'm yet to see it written anywhere that the Emp personally oversaw the training of the GKs (it'd be difficult in his condition), so they're not really the work of his hands either. Now, I will admit that If such a piece of fluff exists anywhere, that'll make the whole Draigo thing easier to swallow for me.

Also, saying the GKs were meant to fight daemons is like saying they were meant to fight stuff. Daemons come in all shapes and sizes, from Nurglings to Anggrath the Unbound. + 10 vs. Daemons doesn't matter when the Daemon is + 1000 vs. everything. And Angron's retinue of 12 Bloodthirsters very strongly implies that he's towards the upper end of the spectrum, and the effort the GKs had to put into taking him out acknowledges this.

But, as you say, the internal logic of the universe constantly changes (without a good reason). So bad writing it is.

[boreas]

As far as I'm concerned, pertty much all Heroic writing, yes... Much like much of the codex fluff, as far as I'm concerned. I think it's really due to format. They need to pack as much punch as they can in about half a page. Otherwise, most entries would be rather bland... So yes, most units are described as being great and wonderful (except maybe the Orks, which kept this "funny" style). So, when it comes to Draigo, yes they went overboard. You may not like that style or function. You may find it terrible writing. But that is still in the realm of personnal opinion. What I'd challenge you to is writing a better fan-fic for Draigo that would fit in a codex and yet convey a sense of heroism. It's bit like that SoB blood story. they wanted to show in a quick and efficient way the new ruthlessness of GKs. They didn't have the margin ADB had in The Emperor's Gift, where the GKGM is a real piece of work.

[Visitor13]

 "What I'd challenge you to is writing a better fan-fic for Draigo that would fit in a codex and yet convey a sense of heroism."

 

"When the hordes of Daemon Primarch Mortarion spewed forth from the portal, Grand Masters Geronitan and Draigo, along with their elite hand-picked for the task, knew that they would need every ounce of their training and faith in the Emperor. The ensuing battle would prove them right. While Mortarion was banished, not to return for a thousand years, nearly all of the Grey Knights, including Geronitan, were slain. Draigo, who was the one to deliver the killing blow, ritually mutilated the Primarch's body before collapsing from his already festering wounds. The Apothecaries responsible for healing their lord claim that Draigo's brainwave scans indicate that he is lost in some fever-induced nightmare."

 

Feel free to remove everything after "festering wounds" or even "Primarch's body", if you think this is too long, too much, or if you don't appreciate my little joke.

 

I think this shows enough heroism.

[Justicar Enethys]

Nah. The marines may have been designed by the Emp, but then they were mass produced. It's the Primarchs who are his personal work, singular works of art as opposed to mass produced stuff. And I'm yet to see it written anywhere that the Emp personally oversaw the training of the GKs (it'd be difficult in his condition), so they're not really the work of his hands either. Now, I will admit that If such a piece of fluff exists anywhere, that'll make the whole Draigo thing easier to swallow for me.

 

Just in case you haven't read 'The Emperor's Gift' by ADB, Visitor13, it is directly stated that the Grey Knights do carry the Emperor's gene seed within them. Not a Primarch, in turn descended from the Emperor, but the Emperor himself. No diluting and straining of the genetic code. Direct gene seed. While the man with the golden everything may not have taught these boys how to wield a toothpick in a threatening manner personally - having their lineage so directly attributed to the Big E himself would put them above your average, "mass produced stuff" I reckon.

 

His own gene seed contributes a great deal to what they are, and their personal creation was the plan of the Emperor and overseen by Malcador (Initially anyway) at the order of the Emperor. Malcador then shielded the entire moon of Titan so that the Grey Knights would come through the Horus Heresy unscathed - ready to fight the approaching darkness he knew would haunt humanity in the aftermath of the Heresy. Quite a bit of effort for just mass produced marines. It seems quite clear that with the Big E's own gene seed within them he had high hopes for them and intended them to be quite epic in nature. The Space Marines and the Custodes weren't up to the task and so the Grey Knights were created - as per the Codex. I don't know about anyone else - but THIS makes them special to me and is what would lend any credence to the heroism which is portrayed in the GK Codex. Not Draigo's flexing in the Warp necessarily - but that's a matter of personal opinion. 

 

I have written this in response to your point Visitor13 in the hope that it maybe sheds some light and makes it, "Easier to swallow" for you. Personally - I think Draigo's text went a little far - but I happily read it in a more 'epic tale' fashion, told by one generation of GK to the next and imagine how it would be elaborated and glorified. 

 

'One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness,

One last blade, forged in defiance of fate.

Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered,

And my final gift to the species I failed.'

 

Inscription upon the Arcus Daemonica, attributed to the Emperor of Mankind.

 

 

(The Emperor's Gift - ADB)

[thade]

In my mind, The Emperor's Gift is the definitive work on the Grey Knights. It really does a spectacular job of dressing up each character as a flawed but committed member of the Order. It's a very good story and it sets the bar rather high in terms of character depth and motivations.

Whereas A. D-B. had a full novel and only needed to concern himself with the characters and the plot, Ward had less than half of a page and needed to spend most of his time trying to balance out the options available in the book against the options available in other armies; no small task. The quality of his rules aside for the moment, even the best author would have a hard time building up a full character in a small blurb; he's got just enough space there to pose some impossible odds (to set the stage) and present the character-less hero that stands up to those odds (to make it clear that the hero is powerful and exciting).

I'll be the first to admit that I don't enjoy Ward's narratives nearly as much as A. D-B.'s, but it is what we have to work with. We each have our own interpretations and they are all equally valid; that's how preference works.

Now, donning the mod-hat....

Most of the conversation in here has been productive and people are sharing and batting around ideas, and most seem to be enjoying themselves. I ask that you all please dull the edge to your words, don't use any ad hominem, and keep things civil. The whole "That's what you think?! How can you be so foolish?!" angle that's coming out here is unbecoming of the board. If it keeps up, I will melta this thread myself.

[Visitor13]

 

Nah. The marines may have been designed by the Emp, but then they were mass produced. It's the Primarchs who are his personal work, singular works of art as opposed to mass produced stuff. And I'm yet to see it written anywhere that the Emp personally oversaw the training of the GKs (it'd be difficult in his condition), so they're not really the work of his hands either. Now, I will admit that If such a piece of fluff exists anywhere, that'll make the whole Draigo thing easier to swallow for me.

 

Just in case you haven't read 'The Emperor's Gift' by ADB, Visitor13, it is directly stated that the Grey Knights do carry the Emperor's gene seed within them. Not a Primarch, in turn descended from the Emperor, but the Emperor himself. No diluting and straining of the genetic code. Direct gene seed. While the man with the golden everything may not have taught these boys how to wield a toothpick in a threatening manner personally - having their lineage so directly attributed to the Big E himself would put them above your average, "mass produced stuff" I reckon.

 

His own gene seed contributes a great deal to what they are, and their personal creation was the plan of the Emperor and overseen by Malcador (Initially anyway) at the order of the Emperor. Malcador then shielded the entire moon of Titan so that the Grey Knights would come through the Horus Heresy unscathed - ready to fight the approaching darkness he knew would haunt humanity in the aftermath of the Heresy. The Space Marines and the Custodes weren't up to the task and so the Grey Knights were created. I don't know about anyone else - but THIS makes them special to me and is what would lend any credence to the heroism which is portrayed in the GK Codex. Not Draigo's flexing in the Warp necessarily - but that's a matter of personal opinion. 

 

I have written this in response to your point Visitor13 in the hope that it maybe sheds some light and makes it, "Easier to swallow" for you. Personally - I think Draigo's text went a little far - but I happily read it a more 'epic tale' fashion told by one generation of GK to the next and imagine how it would be elaborated and glorified. 

 

'One unbreakable shield against the coming darkness,

One last blade, forged in defiance of fate.

Let them be my legacy to the galaxy I conquered,

And my final gift to the species I failed.'

 

Inscription upon the Arcus Daemonica, attributed to the Emperor of Mankind.

 

 

(The Emperor's Gift - ADB)

 

This does help somewhat indeed. And I forgot about the fact that the GKs carry the Emp's geneseed.

[thade]

This does help somewhat indeed. And I forgot about the fact that the GKs carry the Emp's geneseed.

It is very, very, very strongly hinted that this is the case; but it's never directly stated. That's par for the course in 40K, but something to keep in mind nonetheless. One of the core themes of the Grim Dark is doubt.

[Justicar Enethys]

No worries mate - glad to help. I'm not really into this debate in general - but I thought I'd throw that in there :)

 

This does help somewhat indeed. And I forgot about the fact that the GKs carry the Emp's geneseed.

It is very, very, very strongly hinted that this is the case; but it's never directly stated. That's par for the course in 40K, but something to keep in mind nonetheless. One of the core themes of the Grim Dark is doubt.

Actually, at one point in the book, Hyperion does directly state that it is the Emperor's gene seed he carries. I can't find the page on the spur of the moment, but it's in there.

[Justicar Enethys]

Of the Space Wolves...

 

"They were genetic thinbloods; their gene-seed formed from the flesh and blood of the Emperor's son, Leman Russ. Our gene-seed came from a more direct, purer source. We didn't call it the Emperor's Gift as a jest"

 

'The Emperor's Gift - Page 178 - half way down.

 

Pretty much says it all on that subject.

 

Edit: Not being argumentative Thade :) I just think the above quote is more than a hint. There's the Emperor, The Primarchs and then the Astartes. So a more direct source than a Primarch would be The Emperor. A purer source than a Primarch would be the Emperor. And not calling it the Emperor's gift as a jest doesn't really leave any room for doubt. And this quote is from a Grey Knight. Definitive in my mind.

[thade]

It definitely does leave room for doubt. What is the "more pure source"? One can (I certainly do) extrapolate that it's the Emperor himself. It is not directly stated; it is very strongly hinted.

 

But, as the Chaplains tell their Marines, "Blessed is the mind too small for doubt." Doubt is a very dangerous thing; it is a power, a privilege, and a terrible burden, carried only by the very powerful: the Lords of Terra, the Inquisition, and anybody else unfortunate enough to have looked into the face of man's greatest enemy. That certainly includes the Grey Knights.

 

I want to believe that the source is the Emperor; most of us seem to. I have conviction, but I have no proof.

[Justicar Enethys]

Really. What would you consider a purer - or more direct source than a Primarch? I would be fascinated to know. You seem to think there is definitely room for doubt. Name anyone or anything in the known 40K universe which is more pure and direct a source for gene seed which can be used to create Astartes. As all Astartes stem from the Emperor - via their respective Primarch. Perhaps you are referring to an alternate source - which has just never been mentioned in ANY piece of fluff over 30 years. In which case, you're really just looking for a reason to create doubt. 

Edit: When a Grey Knight states that they don't call it the Emperor's Gift as a jest - immediately after referring to the fact their gene seed is of a purer and more direct source than a Primarch - it is grasping heavily at straws to try and keep more 'mystique' about the whole thing mate. Maybe you prefer that. Certainly in recent years much has been clarified which used to be mystery and that rubs people the wrong way sometimes - but this seems excessive.

Perhaps it's all a scam. The High Lords are just deceiving the Grey Knights into thinking they're special in that regard. Except of course, the Grey Knights founding was before the time of the High Lords. They were a result of a plan by the Emperor, implemented by Malcador - in secrecy at the Emperor's command. 

[TrashMan]

Hellios, on 07 May 2013 - 15:36, said:

 

 

There is a time and a place for everything. WFB and 40K are full of references and jokes. That is okay. That doesn't justify terrible writing.

 

Horrible writing by what critera? Ahh...by the "I don't like it therefore it is horrible writing" one?

 

 

If I were to start to pick apart fluff from specific chapter usign inconcistencies or "this shouldn't happen" as horrible writing, then we should prettty much throw away 90% of the fluff.

 

Sanguinor taking on a Greater Demon?

Sisters of Battle surviving a blast of pure psychic energy from a super-psyker all because of faith?

Russ defeating Montarion? The second mightiest psyker in the Imperium with an entire legion of psykers? When did the Space Wolves develop psychic immunity?

I cna go on and on and on wihout end.

 

 

Quote

"And guess what - GK's are a work of the Emperors own hands too. And unlike the Primarchs, who were made to lead, the GK's were made to fight demons. GK's are +10 vs. demons. And guess what a demon primarch is? A DEMON.

 

There's a canonical fact for you to ponder upon."

 

 

Nah. The marines may have been designed by the Emp, but then they were mass produced. It's the Primarchs who are his personal work, singular works of art as opposed to mass produced stuff. And I'm yet to see it written anywhere that the Emp personally oversaw the training of the GKs (it'd be difficult in his condition), so they're not really the work of his hands either. Now, I will admit that If such a piece of fluff exists anywhere, that'll make the whole Draigo thing easier to swallow for me.

Being a personaly designed and beign mass produced are not opposites.

It is heavily implied and its mentioned that the GK use a special batch of gene-seed provided from the Emperor himself.

 

 

 

However all subsequent Astartes of the Chapter are descended not from any of these 8 Astartes or the original 20 Space Marine Legions of the First Founding, but from a unique gene-seed engineered from the genome of the Emperor of Mankind Himself -- what is known as "the Emperor's Gift."

 

 

 

They are unique amongst the Space Marines as the only Astartes Chapter to have full knowledge of the dark secrets of Chaos -- they alone completely know of and understand the existence of daemons and of their ability to enter realspace, and they alone are best equipped to battle and defeat Mankind's most terrible enemy. While other Chapters and Imperial forces have some knowledge of daemons and how to fight them, only the Grey Knights are privy to the darkest, deepest secrets that the Ordo Malleus possesses on these creatures and how to defeat them.

 

 

They surpass any other type of Space Marine in combat and in every trial. They are the elite of the Space Marines and serve as the right

hand of the Emperor. They are the greatest army of the Imperium and Mankind's most potent weapon against the Forces of Chaos.

 

Only upon completion of his training is a Grey Knight granted his new name—until that point Neophytes are assigned only a number. Each name is actually a fragment of arcane lore, divined by the labours of the Chapter's scribes to act in perfect opposition to the true name of a particular daemon. Thus, even the Grey Knight's name is a weapon against his hated foe.

 

 

 

GK PALADINS:

Their mission during this time is to kill each of the four types of Daemon Herald in the service of the Chaos Gods

and return with some proof of the creature's demise, such as a horn or tooth. The four following quests are each more gruelling than the last,

the final task being the most difficult of them all. In the final quest, the aspirant must hunt down and banish one of the 666 most

powerful Daemons to ever manifest in the material realm. This they must do with only a Nemesis Force Weapon and the creature's true name, taken from the Iron Grimoire. Completion of this task allows the candidate to ascend to the rank of Paladin.

[thade]

Primarchs are hardly pure. Half of them fell in league with mankind's greatest enemy, two of them were eradicated and stricken from the record they failed so hard, and the rest of them (those that survived) either isolated themselves or ran off onto impossible missions, vanished. The only surviving Primarchs that still have an active role in the cosmos are now Demon Princes. Not exactly a bang-up resume. But, I digress.

 

The Emperor was a genetics expert beyond mortal comprehension. He experimented a great deal with gene mod and creating life, using himself as a model. It's often accepted that the Primarchs are "one step" from him, as he used his DNA to make them...but that's a weird blackbox. We have zero documentation on the process to create a Primarch, and the relevant step insofar as Space Marine creation is equally unknown. The process requires "geneseed", but the Imperium no longer knows how to make it.

 

So, what makes Grey Knight geneseed more "pure" than typical Astartes geneseed? We share the same assumption, but I acknowledge that it is just that: an assumption. It's a hypothesis that I cannot test, therefore I cannot put it forward as a theory or fact. That is the core difference between science and religion; the very thing that the Emperor wanted everybody to carry forward as a message.

 

While the Ecclesiarchy may frown at me (to put it mildly) for saying so, that's the way of it. Doubt is not my goal; it is our mutual burden.

 

Make no mistake though, in and out of character I think the GK are very probably sourced from the Emperor in the way that the Primarchs are. I also think that's very cool. Very probably does not mean certainty, though. That's where I'm at.

[boreas]

Scientific mindset: until something is proven at 100%, there's always room for doubt. A purer source could be a Primarch that the GKs consider purer than Leman Russ. It could be a "reworked" geneseed comprised of more than one Primarch.

 

@Visitor13: your storie goes to show how opinions can differ. To me, what you wrote is barely different than the battle vs Angron: a Bunch of GKs going against a demon Primarch and winning at great cost. While in itself a great story, it would not make Draigo special in any way. I do like the fact he'd be caught in a nightmare rather than the Warp, as I prefer the "immaterial" view of the Warp (as opposed to the Lovecraftian Other World). He'd have to have some ways to come back every now and then, though...

[Visitor13]

Scientific mindset: until something is proven at 100%, there's always room for doubt. A purer source could be a Primarch that the GKs consider purer than Leman Russ. It could be a "reworked" geneseed comprised of more than one Primarch.

 

@Visitor13: your storie goes to show how opinions can differ. To me, what you wrote is barely different than the battle vs Angron: a Bunch of GKs going against a demon Primarch and winning at great cost. While in itself a great story, it would not make Draigo special in any way. I do like the fact he'd be caught in a nightmare rather than the Warp, as I prefer the "immaterial" view of the Warp (as opposed to the Lovecraftian Other World). He'd have to have some ways to come back every now and then, though...

 

I would say he's special for surviving :)

 

Also he'd recover initially, but then periodically he'd relapse. Not that he'd become like a narcoleptic or anything, but he would suddenly start weakening mid-combat and have to summon all his will to remain alive.

[Justicar Enethys]

Primarchs are hardly pure. Half of them fell in league with mankind's greatest enemy, two of them were eradicated and stricken from the record they failed so hard, and the rest of them (those that survived) either isolated themselves or ran off onto impossible missions, vanished. The only surviving Primarchs that still have an active role in the cosmos are now Demon Princes. Not exactly a bang-up resume. But, I digress.

 

The Emperor was a genetics expert beyond mortal comprehension. He experimented a great deal with gene mod and creating life, using himself as a model. It's often accepted that the Primarchs are "one step" from him, as he used his DNA to make them...but that's a weird blackbox. We have zero documentation on the process to create a Primarch, and the relevant step insofar as Space Marine creation is equally unknown. The process requires "geneseed", but the Imperium no longer knows how to make it.

 

So, what makes Grey Knight geneseed more "pure" than typical Astartes geneseed? We share the same assumption, but I acknowledge that it is just that: an assumption. It's a hypothesis that I cannot test, therefore I cannot put it forward as a theory or fact. That is the core difference between science and religion; the very thing that the Emperor wanted everybody to carry forward as a message.

 

While the Ecclesiarchy may frown at me (to put it mildly) for saying so, that's the way of it. Doubt is not my goal; it is our mutual burden.

 

Make no mistake though, in and out of character I think the GK are very probably sourced from the Emperor in the way that the Primarchs are. I also think that's very cool. Very probably does not mean certainty, though. That's where I'm at.

 

Primarchs may not have all been pure. I am well aware of the history surrounding the Horus Heresy and don't need the fundamentals pointing out, but thanks anyway. You did digress and started using it as a conversational crutch. When a Grey Knight is referring to Leman Russ directly in his conversation (I know you've read the book and furthermore my quote - so there's no need to pan off in the wrong direction with this) - a LOYAL Primarch - who is proven to have remained steadfastly loyal.

 

Your 2nd paragraph isn't worth note especially. We know from fluff that he created the Primarch in his own form and that they developed particular attributes of his more so in particular ways, but it can be assumed were ultimately Mini E's. It is noted in uncountable pieces of fluff how the Space Marines were created from their gene seed. These are facts as have been given in the fluff and are undisputed. Just because neither you or I are Geneticists (I assume you aren't anyway) doesn't mean what we have been told isn't true. I don't know how to pilot a space ship, but it's known to be the way things move around the galaxy in 40k (For the most part anyway).

 

Grey Knights are purer than MOST Chapters. And I say most as I obviously don't know the details of many as they aren't even existing - except as a number in fluff. The Grey Knight loss to corruption is . . . Oh yeah that's right. Flawless (This debate re: Draigo aside). They do fight the things which it is deemed NOTHING ELSE in the Imperial forces can handle - Space Marines, Custodes etc and they fight well. Furthermore - their gene seed has to come from somewhere. Hyperion in The Emperor's Gift states that they don't use that term in jest. This means it is the Emperor's gene seed. The sentence could just as easily be worded. "We have the Emperor's gene seed. It's called the Emperor's Gift for a reason - duh" - but ADB is a better writer than that. 

 

Were I to concede that it's not guaranteed - I would still have to go with a 99.99999999999999999% certainty they are descendant from the Big E himself. For all your response you can offer absolutely NOTHING which would make even the slightest fragment of sense without butchering other established fluff to fit the theory/idea in. Nothing. Big E saw what was coming. Big E saw that his Astartes and Custodes and regular Joe's couldn't handle the impending onslaught of Daemons. IN SECRET he makes a plan to have this Chapter which is special and above the rest. The Emperor plans this. He will be aware at this point that they will require gene seed and that the Primarch Project didn't go as planned. He needed something reliable and when you want a job doing right .... He then has Malcador - IN SECRET gather founding members and IN SECRET take them to Titan where they, IN SECRET are created and born as a Chapter. How it could be anything but the Emperor is beyond me.

 

I like a little mystery and in 40K especially I quite like unanswered questions. I will weep if they ever make canon what happened to the 2 missing legions. Some things are better left unsaid. In this instance however, you can coat it however you want, but GW/ADB have actually said it. They didn't say it in a sentence and context that you understand as being direct. Fair play - nothing said will convince you of that. But it seriously makes me wonder what they would have needed to say for you to go 'Oh right. 100%'.