Did Draigo fall to Slaanesh?

[TrashMan]

 "What I'd challenge you to is writing a better fan-fic for Draigo that would fit in a codex and yet convey a sense of heroism."

 

"When the hordes of Daemon Primarch Mortarion spewed forth from the portal, Grand Masters Geronitan and Draigo, along with their elite hand-picked for the task, knew that they would need every ounce of their training and faith in the Emperor. The ensuing battle would prove them right. While Mortarion was banished, not to return for a thousand years, nearly all of the Grey Knights, including Geronitan, were slain. Draigo, who was the one to deliver the killing blow, ritually mutilated the Primarch's body before collapsing from his already festering wounds. The Apothecaries responsible for healing their lord claim that Draigo's brainwave scans indicate that he is lost in some fever-induced nightmare."

 

Feel free to remove everything after "festering wounds" or even "Primarch's body", if you think this is too long, too much, or if you don't appreciate my little joke.

 

I think this shows enough heroism.

 

 

I hate it. Every last word of it.

Matt Ward Mk2 everyone. Give him a big hand.

 

Too brutal? Too confrontational? Oh well, you'll live. After all, if old Matt can take criticsm and all the tounge-lashing, so can you. You must be tougher than him...right?

 

Ok, this iwas full on sarcasm but I hope the point is made.

It's so easy to criticize and hate. I can hate anything you write and proclaim the biggest pile of turd in the history of ever...simply because I don't like it. The why become irrelevant, as it usually does in such cases.

[Visitor13]

Mark?

[Justicar Enethys]

Boreas - Fair play for actually coming up with a suggestion of what may be purer. A hybrid Primarch could have almost worked. Except the Grey Knights were created in secret at a time when the Emperor couldn't be sure of who was loyal/on their way to corruption etc. I doubt he'd have risked his pet project - his last hope, his final offering to the galaxy and it's people - on gene seed which could be 'rotten'. He need something pure that he could leave behind knowing it would do the job. Who else would he trust at this point? He and Malcador, in secret, hatched and implemented the idea of the Grey Knights. Nothing could be trusted as a source donor at that point - except himself. 10/10 for effort though. Something to back up your view is always welcome as opposed to - "It just isn't".

[Visitor13]

Hybrid Primarch? Dare I say it? II and XI?

[boreas]

Well, in The Emperor's Gift a few GKs survive the confrontation with Angron (vs the old fluff, which might be different. As I recall, a single GK survived?). So while good, it wouldn't mark him a the Apex of GKs... Maybe if, instead of roaming that Other World, he had gained the ability to step into the Warp and fight the True Form of a Deamon because he's so pure it might have been acceptable to "realists" in the fluff community :)

Anything could go, really. Although I really beleive it's the E's geneseed, I'd be ready to accept that he was also working with Primarchs 2.0 project (while planning to retire the Primarch 1.0 in that cave with the Retirement Community for Old Primarchs). He'd had, by then a good idea that Primarchs 1.0 were flawed (even before the Heresy, I think he knew they were flawed, altough not to what extent). So maybe he had a starter kit primed and ready for the "next" level of Primarch. Since he was faced with the fact that he wouldn't be able to use it (because of the Heresy), he used it to create the GK.

Pure rubbish, as far as I'm concerned, but in a Sci-fi-fantasy context like 40k, anything can come out of the hat...

[thade]

They would've needed to say that the Emperor was the only source for the GK geneseed. No more, no less.

 

What they did instead was say "It's the purest!" What does that mean? What vector are we on? I don't know for certain.

 

I concede (and, indeed, haven't argued otherwise) that the two states are not equal in likelihood: it is far more likely that the GK are sourced from the Emperor directly; far more likely that the vector being discussed is "steps removed from the Emperor's own geneseed"; far more likely that your assertions are correct.

 

But, do I know it for absolute certain? No. It is an untestable hypothesis; the kind of hypothesis that scientists would table while they seek a way to test it. Scientists don't found theories on things they can't test; they found theories on things they can consistently test in a way that others can repeat and find similar results.

 

Recall that the Big E was all about science: submit your beliefs to experiment; test them. If you can't do that but you go on believing it anyway, you are in good (well, plentiful) company...as that's the way the Imperium works now, throwing holy water and incense at ancient engines until the thing's internal AIs manage to self-repair, then declaring it was the ritual. It's doing it too much credit to call it "anecdotal evidence". The Big E was vehemently opposed to that stuff. He lead his legions of Space Marines across the cosmos to eliminate it, to lead mankind out of the dark ages. Instead, mankind fell further in.

 

So, doubt is a big deal; it's important to bear it in mind. In the absence of evidence, I draw no conclusions. Nothing weird about a little doubt when all we have is a second-hand hint to go on, however convincing it may seem.

[Visitor13]

Well, in The Emperor's Gift a few GKs survive the confrontation with Angron (vs the old fluff, which might be different. As I recall, a single GK survived?). So while good, it wouldn't mark him a the Apex of GKs... Maybe if, instead of roaming that Other World, he had gained the ability to step into the Warp and fight the True Form of a Deamon because he's so pure it might have been acceptable to "realists" in the fluff community

I'd hit it.

[Gentlemanloser]

What I'd challenge you to is writing a better fan-fic for Draigo that

would fit in a codex and yet convey a sense of heroism. It's bit like

that SoB blood story. they wanted to show in a quick and efficient way

the new ruthlessness of GKs. They didn't have the margin ADB had in The

Emperor's Gift, where the GKGM is a real piece of work.

 

There was an awesome suggestion for the SoB event a while ago.  Can't remember by who, sadly.  Something about the GK arriving with orders to cleanse the entire Planet, telling the surviving SoB to leave, who refused to leave thier corrupted/fallen sister.  So the GK wipe them out, but ritually use thier blood so the spirits of the martyrs can be a part of the Daemons final defeat.

 

Something like that.

 

As for Draigo.  Ther'es nothing inherantly wrong with the original battle.  Taking out Mortarion, sure.  There were some GKs left after Angron.  Instead of carving his name into the Heart (fluff is also that Dameonic bodies disiate back to the warp, there would be no physical remains anyway), change that to building a shrine to the name of the fallen Grand Master instead.

 

As for his existence in the warp.  That needs the focus changed.  Emphasise the futility.  Draigo once again lays the beat down.  In it's dying act, to steal the victory, the Daemon curses Draigo and ties him to the warp for eternity.

 

There, he is beset by Daemonic foes at all times, kept alive to suffer and fight only by thier mercy.  He achives *nothing* in the warp.

 

But sometimes, Draigo is able to break back thorugh to the material world.  Able to make a small impact here, to achive something positive.

 

But he's dragged back, yet again.  And will be for all eternity.  That doesn't break Draigo, nor stop him wanting to fight. 

 

Edit: Focus is on internal consistency, and the grimdark nature of 40k.

[Seahawk]

Does he sleep in the Warp?  What does he eat?  *How* did he reforge his Sword?

 

Every time he pops into reality, he's really just trying to reach an apple tree or something, and he inconveniently has to fight through a bunch of baddies to do it. Every time, he's thwarted and shouts out "SOOOOO HUUUUUNNNNNGRYYYYYYyyyyy..." as he spirals back into the warp after a battle. Without eating anything for so many decades (because he'd be corrupted by eating chaos fruit), he's lost his flow from reusing his own waste over and over. His armor stopped him up after so long to keep it all going, and hence why we have a "constipated-face" Draigo model.

 

No foolin's. 

 

 

 

 

:D

[Justicar Enethys]

They would've needed to say that the Emperor was the only source for the GK geneseed. No more, no less.

What they did instead was say "It's the purest!" What does that mean? What vector are we on? I don't know for certain.

I concede (and, indeed, haven't argued otherwise) that the two states are not equal in likelihood: it is far more likely that the GK are sourced from the Emperor directly; far more likely that the vector being discussed is "steps removed from the Emperor's own geneseed"; far more likely that your assertions are correct.

But, do I know it for absolute certain? No. It is an untestable hypothesis; the kind of hypothesis that scientists would table while they seek a way to test it. Scientists don't found theories on things they can't test; they found theories on things they can consistently test in a way that others can repeat and find similar results.

Recall that the Big E was all about science: submit your beliefs to experiment; test them. If you can't do that but you go on believing it anyway, you are in good (well, plentiful) company...as that's the way the Imperium works now, throwing holy water and incense at ancient engines until the thing's internal AIs manage to self-repair, then declaring it was the ritual. It's doing it too much credit to call it "anecdotal evidence". The Big E was vehemently opposed to that stuff. He lead his legions of Space Marines across the cosmos to eliminate it, to lead mankind out of the dark ages. Instead, mankind fell further in.

So, doubt is a big deal; it's important to bear it in mind. In the absence of evidence, I draw no conclusions. Nothing weird about a little doubt when all we have is a second-hand hint to go on, however convincing it may seem.

They didn't just say 'It's the purest'. They said it was a more direct and purer source and then state how The Emperors Gift is worded that way FOR A REASON. And they refer to a p[urer source than one of the Emperor's sons who was loyal and 'pure'. Leman Russs. Well - pure is never a word I thought I'd associate with him - but you know what I mean lol !!! And a 2nd hand source? You mean - from the mouth of a GK. One who would know these things? Riiight! lol. These are quotes which fully support the already overwhelming facts and canon of their founding - which leave little to the imagination themselves. There comes a point where you pile rocks so high you have to call it a mountain mate.

And about Big E. You're right. He was all about science. And his experiments and trials all failed. Well - many of them did, which would have left doubt about the others in his mind. So with time against him - he sat down to do another round of tests which could be guaranteed to be pure where everything else failed or was in doubt - of course he wouldn't have. Well - a man of science in his position wouldn't have. He had one source he could know for a fact was pure. Himself. And shocker - the Grey Knights seem to think they have his gene seed all these years on.

I'm done with this. It's quite frankly pathetic at this point. The interwebz is what it is. I'll go as far as saying I'm only 99.99999% convinced - but freedom of thought and speech is a wonderful thing. Each to their own. Perhaps your Grey Knights are some wild offspring hybrid of Leman Russ and Sanguinius. They don't exhibit any of their traits - but if it works for you it's all good. It's your hobby :)

Does he sleep in the Warp? What does he eat? *How* did he reforge his Sword?

Every time he pops into reality, he's really just trying to reach an apple tree or something, and he inconveniently has to fight through a bunch of baddies to do it. Every time, he's thwarted and shouts out "SOOOOO HUUUUUNNNNNGRYYYYYYyyyyy..." as he spirals back into the warp after a battle. Without eating anything for so many decades (because he'd be corrupted by eating chaos fruit), he's lost his flow from reusing his own waste over and over. His armor stopped him up after so long to keep it all going, and hence why we have a "constipated-face" Draigo model.

No foolin's.

This. Is. Awesome :D

[boreas]

 

fluff is also that Dameonic bodies disiate back to the warp, there would be no physical remains anyway

 

Once again, that fluff is really inconsistant. Just look at GK models like the one holding a severed bloodletter's head.

[Visitor13]

 

 

fluff is also that Dameonic bodies disiate back to the warp, there would be no physical remains anyway

 

Once again, that fluff is really inconsistant. Just look at GK models like the one holding a severed bloodletter's head.

 

Next time he meets that bloodletter he can toss it at him, and use the distraction to behead him a second time.

 

Given enough time he will be able to drive up to him in a truck and bury him under an avalanche of his own heads.

[Gentlemanloser]

 

Once again, that fluff is really inconsistant. Just look at GK models like the one holding a severed bloodletter's head.

 

Yup, GW is terrible for internal consistency.

 

And it's waved away as a good thing, for 'organic growth'.

 

There should be no mini's holding Daemonic body parts, yet there are quite a few.

 

Forge that narative!!!!

[Hellios]

 

Hellios, on 07 May 2013 - 15:36, said:

 

 

There is a time and a place for everything. WFB and 40K are full of references and jokes. That is okay. That doesn't justify terrible writing.

 

Horrible writing by what critera? Ahh...by the "I don't like it therefore it is horrible writing" one?

 

 

If I were to start to pick apart fluff from specific chapter usign inconcistencies or "this shouldn't happen" as horrible writing, then we should prettty much throw away 90% of the fluff.

 

Sanguinor taking on a Greater Demon?

Sisters of Battle surviving a blast of pure psychic energy from a super-psyker all because of faith?

Russ defeating Montarion? The second mightiest psyker in the Imperium with an entire legion of psykers? When did the Space Wolves develop psychic immunity?

I cna go on and on and on wihout end.

 

And so the pure of faith continued on their journey knowing that they were forever righteous.

 

Well... I can use numerous criteria. Everything is subjective to some degree, but I'm not actually complaining about all consistencies  Hurrah for the moral high-horse. 

 

Sanguinor defeating a Blood Thirster... I'm not saying I like the Sanguinor, but I don't see why this is a problem. Do we even know what the Sanginor is?

SoB using  faith as a shield? Faith is probably a latent psychic power. Hell, Orks make things happen because they believe they will happen. Daemons themselves are manifestations of Human minds (and other races).

As for Russ... Well its has long been mentioned that the Space Wolves (If not Russ) have a resistance to the influence of Chaos (or the warp), and sorcerers powers use the energies of the warp. It could have something to do with the Space Wolves outnumbering the 1ksons, the 1ksons not being ready as Magnus set everything up for his legion to be destroyed. I'm going to assume you meant Magnus of the 1ksons and not Mortarion of the death Guard. It could also have something to do with the Sisters of Silence and Custodes that accompanied the Space Wolves.

 

 

You might be able to go on without end, but at this rate your post wouldn't have any more substance.

 

It is not always a matter of facts, but the manner in which things are written. For example, I think the message the author of the BA dex was trying to portray about the BA/Necron alliance was fine; that being said, I feel it was poorly portrayed.

 

As I have said a lot of things are subjective. It all depends on what criteria you use. Are the criteria I use, or the judgments I make superior to yours? Probably not. Am I right or wrong? Who can say.

[TrashMan]

Sanguinor defeating a Blood Thirster... I'm not saying I like the Sanguinor, but I don't see why this is a problem. Do we even know what the Sanginor is?

 

And maybe Draigo is the Emperors Super-Saint

 

 

 

SoB using  faith as a shield? Faith is probably a latent psychic power. Hell, Orks make things happen because they believe they will happen.

Daemons themselves are manifestations of Human minds (and other races).

 

I don't buy it. If the faith  of a SoB is strong enough to stop an Alpha-Psyker then why can't Draigos faith sheild him from demons?

 

 

 

As for Russ... Well its has long been mentioned that the Space Wolves (If not Russ) have a resistance to the influence of Chaos (or the warp), and sorcerers powers use the energies of the warp.

 

Resistance does not equal immunity. Especially not for someone like Magnus, who is second only to the Emperor in power.

 

See why I told you this can go on forever? Because it really can.

 

 

 

The crux of the matter here is that some people can't stand Draigo conceptually, and don't even bother to try to justify or explain - see how you go out of your way to justify and explain to yourself the above instances - and yet at the same time don't bother to do the same with Draigo.

A forgone conclusion. When people like something, they will find a way to justify it regardless of how much mind-flexing it requires. Likewise, when they don't , the'll do the opposite and just keep coming up with more reasons to hate something - again, regardless of how much mind-flexing it requires.

 

At the end of the day, some people are just looking for reasons to hate because of their initial reaction, and others are looking for reasons to love. And some just look and say "meh".

[Gentlemanloser]

I like Draigo.  I dislike the way his fluff is written.  It misses the point conceptually, and isn't internally consistent.

 

It could have been *awesome*.

 

Crowe on the other hand.  He should have been a side box of a GK kept forever in a stasis field.  Some enrichment to the new pragmatic 'grey' Knights backstory.  Not the sheer idiocy he currently is.

[Visitor13]

 

 

"I don't buy it. If the faith  of a SoB is strong enough to stop an Alpha-Psyker then why can't Draigos faith sheild him from demons?"

 

Well, there is that piece of fluff where the SoB can resist some corrupting force that the GKs can't. That said, the whole SoB faith vs Astartes faith thing isn't clear to me.

 

EDT: And that's ultimately the thing. In one place the Codex tells us there are creations of Chaos that even the GKs can't resist, and elsewhere we have Draigo wandering around the Warp. Yes, there may very well be a logical explanation. More than one in fact. But seriously, a codex should leave you singing "I got the powa" and not "Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps".

[shortysl]

GK die all the time fighting daemons, and they never fight alone.

 

This is a quote from another post. I'd like to point out that actually, there are occasions in which they do. When a Grey Knight wishes to become a Paladin, one of his trials is to hunt down and banish one the 666 most powerful daemons ever manifested and destroy it, with neither armour nor Storm Bolter to help him.

 

Paladins are effectively 'regular' Grey Knights, yet they are capable of these kinds of acts in addition to, I believe, seven other such difficult and deadly acts. The Grey Knights are supposed to be heroic and larger than life, capable of acts that seem wondrous and all but impossible even by the standards of the superhuman Space Marines. Draigo performing such legendary acts are exactly that; legendary. Worthy of legend, impossible for any other individual to repeat. It'd be kind of a poor showing if he didn't do something that was beyond the ability of mortals to believe or comprehend.

 

St. Celestine comes back to life every time she's killed, and she was a mortal woman. Anyone want to explain that?

 

Does anyone question that an unarmed, unarmoured World Eater is able to kill a fully armed, fully armoured Custodes (who are created to be more powerful and skilled in combat than any Astartes) with his bare hands in Outcast Dead? No.

 

Draigo is the most recent bandwagon character. His fluff is supposed to be unbelievable, heroic and tragic.

 

Maybe those who think it's badly written should bag themselves a job with GW and do better? Oh wait, you're probably too busy being a special forces ninja, or genetic engineer, or university professor or any of the other myriad amazeballs jobs that the haters on here always seem to claim they have to justify their arguments.........

[Visitor13]

"St. Celestine comes back to life every time she's killed, and she was a mortal woman. Anyone want to explain that?"

 

The Emperor :D

 

Does anyone question that an unarmed, unarmoured World Eater is able to
kill a fully armed, fully armoured Custodes (who are created to be more
powerful and skilled in combat than any Astartes) with his bare hands in
Outcast Dead? No.

 

Yes, I do :D

 

"or university professor"

 

Kinda - getting there anyway :D

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm an office manager in a secondary school. :(

 

I'd love to be a Ninja or creator of the world first AI or the like! 

 

But I do read.  A lot. ;)  And have been playing war games (and board games, rpgs and crpgs) for nearly 40 years.  I hope that gives me some sort of experience in the field! :P

[Vesper]

 

Draigo is the most recent bandwagon character. His fluff is supposed to be unbelievable, heroic and tragic.

 

Maybe those who think it's badly written should bag themselves a job

with GW and do better? Oh wait, you're probably too busy being a special

forces ninja, or genetic engineer, or university professor or any of

the other myriad amazeballs jobs that the haters on here always seem to

claim they have to justify their arguments.........

Ahh, fallacy, what an amazing thing, isn't it ?

Nobody cares about what Draigo's fluff is supposed to be, it sure is unbelievable to the point it makes the setting look ridiculous. It is in fact so unbelievable that it can't even be heroic or tragic because to be heroic or tragic, a story must be believable, it must be coherent with its setting. Otherwise, it's out of place and ridiculous. See, if Achilles killed Hector with a laser rifle, it would've been retarded. Draigo is retarded.

Pretending nobody can point out what's wrong in what GW produces because "OLOLOL, do better" is pretty poor. But it must work quite well in schoolyards I guess.

[shortysl]

 

 

Draigo is the most recent bandwagon character. His fluff is supposed to be unbelievable, heroic and tragic.

 

Maybe those who think it's badly written should bag themselves a job

with GW and do better? Oh wait, you're probably too busy being a special

forces ninja, or genetic engineer, or university professor or any of

the other myriad amazeballs jobs that the haters on here always seem to

claim they have to justify their arguments.........

Ahh, fallacy, what an amazing thing, isn't it ?

Nobody cares about what Draigo's fluff is supposed to be, it sure is unbelievable to the point it makes the setting look ridiculous. It is in fact so unbelievable that it can't even be heroic or tragic because to be heroic or tragic, a story must be believable, it must be coherent with its setting. Otherwise, it's out of place and ridiculous. See, if Achilles killed Hector with a laser rifle, it would've been retarded. Draigo is retarded.

Pretending nobody can point out what's wrong in what GW produces because "OLOLOL, do better" is pretty poor. But it must work quite well in schoolyards I guess.

I didn't for one moment pretend that no one can point out what's wrong with GW. I myself can think of a lot of things that I believe to be wrong with them. However, what's 'wrong' with them is entirely subjective. If you want to attack me personally then please, make sure you read and understand what I've written before you do.

 

My point is, those who are saying it's 'just badly written' (and I admit, I probably should have been more specific there) are almost certainly incapable of doing better themselves. I try to limit my public venting of the problems I have with GW for precisely that reason; I wouldn't be able to do better myself. If you knew me, you'd no without doubt that I have nothing but respect for an individual's entitlement to have, and voice, their opinion, but that's the problem with internet forums; people don't know each other. Which is a shame.

 

As for the necessity for a story to be believable in order to be heroic or tragic, I disagree. There is so much in 40k that is not believable; it's work of fantasy, but there are a great many tales of heroism and tragedy within the setting.

 

Gentlemanloser, Visitor13: No offence was intended, I hope none was taken. Maybe I should bite my tongue more often (or fingers technically) but I'm so tired of seeing arguments that are justified with "I know better than you because I'm Spec Ops/FBI/soooo intelligent that my cranium is enormous/ insert-any-other-job-that-is-almost-certainly-made-up-because-I-can't-think-of-any-other-way-to-argue"

 

I have no doubt whatsoever that there are members on these forums who do have such jobs; we're a diverse bunch, but come on, when no-one is turning round and saying "Hey I know bull:cuss because I'm a cattle farmer", I do start to question the veracity of their statements.

[Vesper]

 

As for the necessity for a story to be believable in order to be heroic

or tragic, I disagree. There is so much in 40k that is not believable;

it's work of fantasy, but there are a great many tales of heroism and

tragedy within the setting.

Man, as I wrote :

 

a story must be believable, it must be coherent with its setting.

A setting can be unbelievable, It can have its own rules and such. And staying true to the rules of the setting makes stories believable. The Enuma Elish is awesome, but only because at no point in the story a guy makes retarded stuff that breaks the rules of that perticular myth.

And that is why Draigo is awful, why he can't be heroic or tragic, because he's stuck in his own ridiculous nonsense.

[shortysl]

 

 

As for the necessity for a story to be believable in order to be heroic

or tragic, I disagree. There is so much in 40k that is not believable;

it's work of fantasy, but there are a great many tales of heroism and

tragedy within the setting.

Man, as I wrote :

> 

a story must be believable, it must be coherent with its setting.

A setting can be unbelievable, It can have its own rules and such. And staying true to the rules of the setting makes stories believable. The Enuma Elish is awesome, but only because at no point in the story a guy makes retarded stuff that breaks the rules of that perticular myth.

And that is why Draigo is awful, why he can't be heroic or tragic, because he's stuck in his own ridiculous nonsense.

 

Then I believe we're at a point where we need to agree to disagree.

 

I personally like Draigo's story and nothing you say will convince me otherwise. Similarly, you obviously hate it and I doubt if I could change your opinion before the mods shut this thread, if at all.  

 

It's been good discussing this with you.

[Visitor13]

Draigo is the most recent bandwagon character. His fluff is supposed to be unbelievable, heroic and tragic.

Maybe those who think it's badly written should bag themselves a job

with GW and do better? Oh wait, you're probably too busy being a special

forces ninja, or genetic engineer, or university professor or any of

the other myriad amazeballs jobs that the haters on here always seem to

claim they have to justify their arguments.........

Ahh, fallacy, what an amazing thing, isn't it ?

Nobody cares about what Draigo's fluff is supposed to be, it sure is unbelievable to the point it makes the setting look ridiculous. It is in fact so unbelievable that it can't even be heroic or tragic because to be heroic or tragic, a story must be believable, it must be coherent with its setting. Otherwise, it's out of place and ridiculous. See, if Achilles killed Hector with a laser rifle, it would've been retarded. Draigo is retarded.

Pretending nobody can point out what's wrong in what GW produces because "OLOLOL, do better" is pretty poor. But it must work quite well in schoolyards I guess.

I didn't for one moment pretend that no one can point out what's wrong with GW. I myself can think of a lot of things that I believe to be wrong with them. However, what's 'wrong' with them is entirely subjective. If you want to attack me personally then please, make sure you read and understand what I've written before you do.

My point is, those who are saying it's 'just badly written' (and I admit, I probably should have been more specific there) are almost certainly incapable of doing better themselves. I try to limit my public venting of the problems I have with GW for precisely that reason; I wouldn't be able to do better myself. If you knew me, you'd no without doubt that I have nothing but respect for an individual's entitlement to have, and voice, their opinion, but that's the problem with internet forums; people don't know each other. Which is a shame.

"My point is, those who are saying it's 'just badly written' (and I

admit, I probably should have been more specific there) are almost

certainly incapable of doing better themselves. I try to limit my public

venting of the problems I have with GW for precisely that reason; I

wouldn't be able to do better myself. If you knew me, you'd no without

doubt that I have nothing but respect for an individual's entitlement to

have, and voice, their opinion, but that's the problem with internet

forums; people don't know each other. Which is a shame."

No offence taken - but remember that this line of reasoning is dubious. If, say, a surgeon botches his job, shouldn't we call it for what it is just because we wouldn't have been able to do any better?

Now I do agree that the criticism of Ward's fluff shouldn't degrade into hatred towards Ward as a person. This I do find most distasteful and uncalled for. However, I see nothing wrong with criticism of his writing, as long as it doesn't cross that line. Personally I like some of his stuff - the Newcrons, for example, and that bit about the GKs bringing something *nasty* along with them from the Warp. However, the fact that much of his work does generate so much vitriol strongly implies that there is something wrong with it on some level.

And as for this

"when no-one is turning round and saying "Hey I know bull:cuss because I'm a cattle farmer"

Well, I *still* don't know how to properly edit quotes on this new forum