Dread shooting

[Riggs]

So imagine a dread with 2 weapons, a template weapon and some gun with a larger range.

Now place him by two units, a and b, in such a way that a is between the dread and b. Now b is lets say some arbitrary distance away from the dread but still in range of the dread`s non-template weapon, but out side the template range. And a is within the template range.

 

K now that you hopefully have the mental picture, tje dread chooses b as his target, and fires his non-template weapon. Is he still allowed to 'attempt' to fire his template weapons, hitting unit a?

[redmapa]

if the template can hit the intended target then yes if not you cant as the weapon is out of range

[Fibonacci]

if the template can hit the intended target then yes if not you cant as the weapon is out of range

That was the case in 5th because it had words to the effect that if the target is out of range the weapon automatically misses.  There is no such phrase in the template weapon rules any more.

 

You are left with covering "as many models in the firing unit as possible.  Since zero are possible no matter where the template is placed you can place the template anywhere in the firing arc you wish.

 

However in the shooting rules on pages 12 and 13 it says a model needs at least one weapon in range to be able to shoot at the target.  The target is in range of at least one weapon so the dread can fire.  Next in the roll to hit the rules say to "roll a D6 for each shot that is in range."  Templates do not roll to hit as normal but follow their rules on page 52. Which brings us back to "instead of rolling To Hit, simply place the template ..."

 

So combining the two rules we get:

To determine if the firing model has hit its target, simply place the template for each shot that is in range.

 

Finally ... the range of the weapon is "template."  Does it have a range?  No matter what the distance is, you have no way of measuring what is "out of range," only what can not be covered.  If there is a friendly model in front of the dread, the template can not be placed there even if the target unit could also be covered.  So is the target "out of range" any more or less than the target in the original example?

 

So in the end, this is the question:  Is the target out of range if it can not be covered by the template.  And there is the answer.  If it is out of range the template weapon can not be fired.

[infornography]

I think trying to shoot at unit a when b is your target and out of range of the template (easy to determine, no need for silly semantics) is borderline cheating. 

 

If you can position such that you barely clip even one model in unit b with that template though, and it is all good.

 

In 6th you are allowed to premeasure so just make sure the dread moves into position to do just that.

[Gentlemanloser]

I'm not surprised that GW failed and have actually allowed what was only barely disallowed in 5th.

 

I'm gonna have a look at this when I get home.  Interesting reading! ;)

[Jolemai]

More reading to be found in the BA forum.

[j-smuv]

I think trying to shoot at unit a when b is your target and out of range of the template (easy to determine, no need for silly semantics) is borderline cheating. 

 

If you can position such that you barely clip even one model in unit b with that template though, and it is all good.

 

In 6th you are allowed to premeasure so just make sure the dread moves into position to do just that.

 

 

I agree. ..  

 

The only issue for me is that it is common practice to increase the wound range of flamer templates on dreadnaughts because they have also been equipped with a longer range weapon.  It seems silly to allow this workaround, and disallow Riggs' workaround.  Frankly Riggs' workaround makes more sense:  He fires at a tank, and roasts some troops in between.  The Magna Grapple magically increasing the range of your Frag Cannon?  That's a little more dubious.   

[Gentlemanloser]

Despite the new badly worded FAQ, you can never increase a template weapons range, for wounding.

 

Imagine placing a template, and covering 10 minis out of 20.  If you manage to wound all 10, and they get not saves, then those 10 have to be removed anyway.  As they are the closest minis to you.

 

If they weren't, they'd be covered under the template as well.

 

Now Torrents can make this a little more difficult, but you're never going to get a situation where the number of wounds you cause with your Template exceeds the number of minis under it, necessitating you to increase it's range by cheesing the FAQ and also using a longer ranged weapon.

 

You can't even land Precision Shots with a template, which might be the other use of the new FAQ.

[j-smuv]

. . .you're never going to get a situation where the number of wounds you cause with your Template exceeds the number of minis under it, necessitating you to increase it's range by cheesing the FAQ and also using a longer ranged weapon.

 

 

 

 

 

Overlapping templates, and the Frag Cannon is assault 2.  Both of these situations cause more wounds than what you physically cover with one template. 

 

And I love the term "cheesing the FAQ."  Where's my southpark gif?

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah!  Yeah, that would allow cheesing.

 

First interesting thing of note, if you're only attakcing with Template Weapons, your Target is considered 'out of range' to your attack.  Fun.

 

 

Out of Range

As long as a model was in range of the enemy when to-hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack

 

As you don't make any to-hit rolls with only template weapons, the attacker is never considered to be in range of the enemy...

 

 

As for the Dread with a Template and 'normal' ranged weapon, I can no longer find anything to stop you laying the Template on another unit.  Unless your Target is another vehicle.  In which case the Tempate *must* be placed on the vehicle.

 

If you can't, then you can't place the template.

 

There's no such restriction for targetting an non vehicle unit though.

 

Good work GW, it's obvious this isn't how anyone would want/like this to work, and this wasn't allowed in 5th.  Yet it's something else that has slipped through the cracks into 6th, due only to bad writing.

[Raeven]

Ah!  Yeah, that would allow cheesing.

 

First interesting thing of note, if you're only attakcing with Template Weapons, your Target is considered 'out of range' to your attack.  Fun.

 

 

Out of Range

As long as a model was in range of the enemy when to-hit rolls were made, he is considered to be in range for the duration of the shooting attack

 

As you don't make any to-hit rolls with only template weapons, the attacker is never considered to be in range of the enemy...

 

 

.

You aren't really interpreting it that way, are you?

 

You do not need to roll to hit to "be in range".

[Gentlemanloser]

I'd never play it like that.  But by RAW, the unit would need to make at least one to-hit roll to be considered 'in range'.

 

Silly, but just another example of how shockingly bad 6th edition rule writing is.

[Leonaides]

Ah, but don't u have to check range before u roll to hit?

[Gentlemanloser]

You have to check range to see if you can target the unit/make the attack.  But it seems when you come to the next step (roll to-hit), as you don't make any rolls, you're then classed as being 'out of range'.

 

Fun!  Forge that Narrative!

[Raeven]

I'd never play it like that.  But by RAW, the unit would need to make at least one to-hit roll to be considered 'in range'.

 

Silly, but just another example of how shockingly bad 6th edition rule writing is.

 

 

Rolling to-hit is a sub-sequence of the Shooting Phase.  It happens, whether you actually roll any dice or not. 

[Gentlemanloser]

But no to-hit rolls are made.  So you can't satisfy "when to-hit rolls were made".

 

Edit

 

The relevant steps are;

 

2: Choose a Target (This is where the original Range check is made)

 

3: Roll To-Hit

 

Once you have chosen a target that is in Range/LoS of your all template unit, you progress to Step 3.

 

Here, the 'Out of Range' rule (Page 16, after Step 5, Allocating Wounds) kicks in.

 

As there are no To-hit rolls made, the attakcing unit is considered out of range for the duration of the shooting attack.  Of which, To-wound and Allocate wounds come after.

 

As you're deemed out of range, you cannot now wound or allocate wounds to your target.

 

Once again, this is in no way how the game should work.  It's just bloody awful writing on GWs part.

[Splitwrist]

So this issue only comes up with dreads and the like right?

 

Pg.12 of the BRB under step 2 of The Shooting Sequence box clearly states "Models that cannot see the target [unit], or are not in range, cannot shoot." and since range of the template weapon is represented by the template then the far unit would be 'out of range'.

 

So if I had a unit with 2 Marines one with a weapon that could reach the far unit and one with a flamer; While the one marine could fire upon the far unit, the flamer couldn't fire upon the near unit as if it were "attempting" to hit the far unit. 

[Raeven]

But no to-hit rolls are made.  So you can't satisfy "when to-hit rolls were made".

 

 

Once again, this is in no way how the game should work.  It's just bloody awful writing on GWs part.

 

 

More like bloody awful reading on your part.  You don't need to satisfy "when to-hit rolls were made", that is a sequence in the phase that you have to travel through whether you roll die to-hit or not.  The to-hit part is satisfied by the exception of the Template/Blast rule.   

 

 

So this issue only comes up with dreads and the like right?

 

Pg.12 of the BRB under step 2 of The Shooting Sequence box clearly states "Models that cannot see the target [unit], or are not in range, cannot shoot." and since range of the template weapon is represented by the template then the far unit would be 'out of range'.

 

So if I had a unit with 2 Marines one with a weapon that could reach the far unit and one with a flamer; While the one marine could fire upon the far unit, the flamer couldn't fire upon the near unit as if it were "attempting" to hit the far unit. 

 

Right.  Unless the template can hit the further unit or you are allowed to split fire, it doesn't fire.  Rule applies to Walkers with multiple weapons as much as it applies to individual models. 

 

So, no, you cannot fire at a unit 36 inches away and also hit the unit in between with your flamer template/frag grenades that are out of range.

[Gentlemanloser]

More like bloody awful reading on your part.  You don't need to satisfy

"when to-hit rolls were made", that is a sequence in the phase that you

have to travel through whether you roll die to-hit or not.  The to-hit

part is satisfied by the exception of the Template/Blast rule. 

 

When are to hit roll made, if you don't make any to hit rolls?

 

 

So, no, you cannot fire at a unit 36 inches away and also hit the unit

in between with your flamer template/frag grenades that are out of

range.

 

There is nothing to stop you placing a Template weapon anywhere you want (Edit: while still follwing Template rules, such as not hitting firendlies, and if not torrent touching the base of the shooter, etc) if you can't cover at least one member of the target unit.  Unless that target is a vehicle.

 

Nothing at all.

[Raeven]

 

. . .you're never going to get a situation where the number of wounds you cause with your Template exceeds the number of minis under it, necessitating you to increase it's range by cheesing the FAQ and also using a longer ranged weapon.

 

 

Overlapping templates, and the Frag Cannon is assault 2.  Both of these situations cause more wounds than what you physically cover with one template. 

 

And I love the term "cheesing the FAQ."  Where's my southpark gif?

 

Actually, I think the Template/Blast rule is also an exception to the FAQ and range rule.  In bold on page 6, "A unit takes a hit for each model that is fully, or even partially, underneath the template."

 

The Out of Range rule doesn't seem to apply to templates.  Otherwise, models that aren't touched by the template are "Out of Range", since the range of the Template is the physical Template itself, and can never be wounded.

[Raeven]

 

More like bloody awful reading on your part.  You don't need to satisfy

"when to-hit rolls were made", that is a sequence in the phase that you

have to travel through whether you roll die to-hit or not.  The to-hit

part is satisfied by the exception of the Template/Blast rule. 

 

When are to hit roll made, if you don't make any to hit rolls?

 

 

>So, no, you cannot fire at a unit 36 inches away and also hit the unit

in between with your flamer template/frag grenades that are out of

range.

 

There is nothing to stop you placing a Template weapon anywhere you want (Edit: while still follwing Template rules, such as not hitting firendlies, and if not torrent touching the base of the shooter, etc) if you can't cover at least one member of the target unit.  Unless that target is a vehicle.

 

Nothing at all.

 

 

1.  Repeating our arguments over and over isn't going to conclude this debate.  Let's agree to disagree.

 

2.  You are right, except for the rule on page 13.  "Which models can fire?...  All models in the unit must shoot at the same target unit.  If a model cannot shoot at the same target as the other models in it's unit, for any reason, then it cannot shoot at all in that phase."

 

For the same reason you can't shoot a missile from a Rhino at a unit 48" away and also shoot it's storm bolter at the unit in between, the weapon simply does not shoot if it is not in range of the target unit.

[Gentlemanloser]

Ah right!

 

So this does only apply to Dreads, MCs or other vehicles with multiple weapons.

 

Who are in range to the target unit, but have a Template Weapon that isn't.

[Raeven]

Psykers? Maybe?

 

I think your list is pretty complete though.