Hyaenidae Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 So, my buddy Noctus has begun creating a cool story for his new Word Bearers army, The Chapter of the Ruined King, (go check it out in the WIP forum, cool story and great conversions), but during the telling of his story during the Heresy timeframe, he may or may not have inadvertently stumbled upon a fluff conflict; I'm hoping someone here can help out. In the Dark Apostle series, third book, it's mentioned that the "Brotherhood" was used to cull all the Terrans from the Word Bearers ranks prior to Istvaan. But in the First Heretic, the Word Bearers have a pack of Custodians following them around everywhere, watching their every move, all the way to Istvaan. I doubt even the Word Bearers and thier awesome bag of tricks could have hidden the execution of every Terran within the WB ranks without raising one hell of a red flag. Am I missing something, or is there a retconn going on, or what? Thanks in advance for your help. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/ Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 First Heretic says they purged those who were not loyal to Lorgar, which does not necessarily mean all the Terrans. After all, Khârn, Ahriman, and half the Night Lords were Terran born. It did not stop them from jumping on the "Death To the False Emperor" bandwagon. Also, the number of Word Bearers who were purged was much smaller than the amount culled from every Legion...with the possible exceptios of the Alpha Legion and the Night Lords. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362383 Share on other sites More sharing options...
A D-B Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 So, my buddy Noctus has begun creating a cool story for his new Word Bearers army, The Chapter of the Ruined King, (go check it out in the WIP forum, cool story and great conversions), but during the telling of his story during the Heresy timeframe, he may or may not have inadvertently stumbled upon a fluff conflict; I'm hoping someone here can help out. In the Dark Apostle series, third book, it's mentioned that the "Brotherhood" was used to cull all the Terrans from the Word Bearers ranks prior to Istvaan. But in the First Heretic, the Word Bearers have a pack of Custodians following them around everywhere, watching their every move, all the way to Istvaan. I doubt even the Word Bearers and thier awesome bag of tricks could have hidden the execution of every Terran within the WB ranks without raising one hell of a red flag. Am I missing something, or is there a retconn going on, or what? Thanks in advance for your help. About 200 Word Bearers (out of 150,000), who make up one just one of the hundreds of Legion fleets, and who don't see Lorgar for 40 years (like many of a Legion's fleets won't see its primarch for decades), have 5 Custodians with them. Scale, dude. Scale! That, and Erebus tells Argel Tal there was a purge, while they're walking the killing fields of Isstvan. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362434 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I really dislike the "all Terrans are loyal" mini-trope/assumption. Terras are as susceptible to charisma/conflicting loyalties and Chaos as anyone else. I guess there's an argument that Terran marines are more likely to have seen the Emperor and maybe fought in battles he led directly and thus be more likely to be loyal to him, but there were plenty of traitors who we can assume would have had direct contact with the Emperor at some point who did turn traitor as well. I guess as well it is possible primarchs might be more suspicious of those who remember their legion without the primarch at its head, so those Terrans get forced into the margins and end up loyalists by default. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362438 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blindhamster Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Keep in mind that terrans were not always assumed to be traitors, Mortarion believed Garro could be brought around afterall. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362554 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Well, that is true, for the other Legions. In the case of the Word Bearers, it was assumed that because the Terran Astartes had been indoctrinated with the teachings of the "False Emperor" and even those who would have normally fit the bill of "Terran but loyal to the Primarch" were wiped out for the "Greater good of the Legion so it might be pure." Or some other such line of reasoning. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362562 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cerbero666 Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I think is more a question of nostalgia. The terrans would miss their homeworld in some way, but even more the ideals they were born into. Garro missed the days of the Dusk Raiders, and despised what the legion had become, just as Lhorke who still thought of the XII Legion as the War Hound's of the Emperor. I think Khârn in some way had that feelings too, but he was too far away maybe because of the nails or because of his loyalty to Angron, but in Betrayer it seems that he wasn't pleased with the change the legion suffered. So, I don't think is a matter of: Terrans are more loyal to the figure of the Emperor and the outsiders aren't. Loken and Torgaddon were from Cthonia and yet they fought against their brothers in the Emperor's name. I think is more like: Terrans had some kind of ideals from the first days of their legions that the new recruits hadn't, because of the influence of their primarchs too. Either way it isn't certain, Terrans who came from criminal undergrounds would had a twisted sense of honour, or not honour at all. But I think is more from the ideals than from the planet itself, and even the Emperor. That's an idea I've been working on for a possible Heresy army background, a group of astartes who don't believe in the Emperor but still think the way his primarch has chosen is an affront against every they considered right, so they are traitors for both sides. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362612 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phoros Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Wasn't Erebus a Terran himself? Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362754 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Wasn't Erebus a Terran himself? IIRC he was from Colchis. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362775 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackoption Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 No. Erebus was from the Word Bearer home planet. Both he and Kor Phearon joined about the same time (with Erebus being the younger) Drat. Someone beat me to it. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362777 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Khârn is Terran. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362787 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 But Khârn isn't a Word Bearer. :P There are a few Traitor Legions with notable Terrans who turned against the Imperium. Khârn, Arhiman, Astelan and a few others. Just not in the XVII. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362792 Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackoption Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 But did Astelan really turn against the Emperor? All we can say for sure is that he merely turned against his Primarch. anyways... I remember reading in Betrayer that the Word Bearers purge was post istavann 5. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362807 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brokksamson Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I will throw in my 2 cents on "Terrans always being loyal", Not ALL Terrans remained Loyal, but the theory behind why a majority of them did remain loyal, is that most Terran born/recruited would be more loyal to the Emperor himself, where as those born/recruited on the Legion's planet would be more fiercely loyal to the Primarch. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362829 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Since in "Fallen Angels" Luther decided to "liberate" Caliban from Imperial rule and Astelan sided with Luther, I think yes, we can say Astelan has turned against the Emperor. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362833 Share on other sites More sharing options...
[TA]Typher Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Using my mind powers and a little bit of wizard magic that I learned, I tried to purge some Terrains the other day. But after a couple of minutes they told me to put my clothes back on and get out. Now the cops say I'm banned from that bus stop. Dratz. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362895 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xin Ceithan Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Using my mind powers and a little bit of wizard magic that I learned, I tried to purge some Terrains the other day. But after a couple of minutes they told me to put my clothes back on and get out. Now the cops say I'm banned from that bus stop. Dratz. Well, Sir, you at least purged my drink just then. Through the nose, no less :) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362902 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Legionator Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Most Terrans was together with the Emperor before they meet their primarchs and they know what was it like before the Emperor. So, Terran Marines' loyalty to the Emperor is not so surprising. @Kol_Saresk: Ahriman is a different case. He looks like still loyal to the Emperor to me at the end of "A Thousand Sons". Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362957 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 Quick! Put all the Terran Word Bearers in a little box and DON'T LET THEM OUT OF IT! Yes, there were Terrans who were purged and Colchisans who turned. There were also Colchisians going "Whoa dudes! Maybe we should think about all this sacrifice and torture stuff." and Terrans saying "Bros! Look at these spikes growing on my armor! Is this freaking sweet or what?" Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362974 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 2, 2013 Author Share Posted May 2, 2013 About 200 Word Bearers (out of 150,000), who make up one just one of the hundreds of Legion fleets, and who don't see Lorgar for 40 years (like many of a Legion's fleets won't see its primarch for decades), have 5 Custodians with them. Scale, dude. Scale! That, and Erebus tells Argel Tal there was a purge, while they're walking the killing fields of Isstvan. Scale is exactly my point, man. Even if only 10% of the Word Bearers were Terran by birth left, that's 15,000-ish warriors executed, not counting standard deaths while the Word fought for thier false 'Compliance', burning worlds by the dozen. The Custodes couldn't have just been walking around, telling those 200 warriors "I'm watching you.." and walking away backwards slowly. I would have thought they'd be still going over fatality reports, recruitment status's, and generally doing the detective thing. Or am I misunderstanding the purpose of the Custodes assigned,and they were just meant to watch Lorgar? Keep in mind that terrans were not always assumed to be traitors, Mortarion believed Garro could be brought around afterall. But Khârn isn't a Word Bearer. There are a few Traitor Legions with notable Terrans who turned against the Imperium. Khârn, Arhiman, Astelan and a few others. Just not in the XVII. And there's this too. Why in the nine hells did the Word Bearers purge their ranks of Terrans in the first place? Tons of them must have been die-hard Lorgar fans. Even if you factor in the religious aspect, wouldn't it have been a moral victory to convert a warrior of Terran blood to Chaos? Kind of like a "be pure, filthy as thou art" thing. Swearing one's self to the Gods is what the sons of Lorgar are all about; why be rid of the greatest proof that any can be sworn to darkness, even those who were born into the light? EDIT: My spelling sucks, sorry. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362975 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kol Saresk Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 I just got the sense that he was "striking it out on his own" but that was just me. Heathens: I think it was more of a "Let's take no chances" sort of purge and those Terrans who were loyal to Lorgar would probably still "give their lives for the cause." To behonest, it doesn't make the most sense but because it's there, it's there. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362984 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wade Garrett Posted May 2, 2013 Share Posted May 2, 2013 "Few Word Bearers resisted the truth, for most had always felt it on some level." "Few resisted..."an uncomfortable thought climbed Argel Tal's spine. "Was there a purge? A purge of our own ranks?" Erebus weighed his answer before giving it voice. "Not all wished to turn on the Imperium. They believed stagnancy was strength, that stasis was preservation. No such reluctance remains in the Legion now." So Word Bearer had slain Word Bearer, unseen by the eyes of other Legions. Argel Tal breathed slowly, not wishing to ask yet unable to resist. "How many died?" "Enough." Erebus took no joy in confessing it. "Not many...nothing like the numbers of those who were culled from the faithless Legions...but enough." THE FIRST HERETIC, p. 471-472. I'm not seeing anything here that says "We killed all the Terrans" just that they killed all who would not follow Lorgar. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3362993 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 The "Purge all Terrans" part was from the Dark Apostle series, by Anthony Reynolds. The third book, Dark Creed, if memory serves me right. Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3363001 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Rohr Posted May 3, 2013 Share Posted May 3, 2013 Heathens, I love you so I'm not nitpicking or trying to be belligerent :D when the author who focuses on the legion in question specifically states that only about 200 guys with the Primarch were underwatch its safe to assume that BL only intended the Custodes to watch Lorgar or no one has decided to discuss the purging of the word bearers in detail yet. Just something to consider. ;) Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3363020 Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hyaenidae Posted May 3, 2013 Author Share Posted May 3, 2013 It's cool man; it's bben a while since I've read the book, so I didn't remember offhand whether it was specifically stated that they were only watching Lorgar. Plus, I'm typing in the CP, praying that my 1SG don't walk in. Not a good time to do research, per se. :P Link to comment https://bolterandchainsword.com/topic/274860-a-prayer-for-purging-the-word-bearers-purge-of-terrans/#findComment-3363025 Share on other sites More sharing options...
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