Ironclad Dreadnoughts in 6th Edition

[TSgt Hivemind]

Ok, sorry about the thread necromany here, but I want to discuss the Ironclad in 6th edition.  Everything here, and all the other threads I found, are related to 5th edition.  So, did this thing get better, worse? 

 

In my opinion the Ironclad got better in 6th.  With most armies leaving their armor behind, I'm seeing less and less high strenght weapons on the board.  That makes is AV 13 all the more awesome.  I also feel that the elimination of any chance of killing a vehicle with a lucky glancing hit is a good thing.  Much harder to drop that ironclad in one shot with a missle launcher. 

 

The move through cover thing got way better with this edition too.  I don't know if a drop pod is even neccessary any more.  Run the ironclad through terrain and it'll be able to wreck some face rather quickly.

 

I'm planning on running mine with the whole kit.  launchers, flamer, melta, 2 hks. Take out hordes and armor at both close and long range.

[Creeger]

I’ve been running a pod + locator with an Ironclad for the last few months. I run him with a heavy flamer, melta gun, assault launchers, and a chain fist. Here’s a summary of my findings:

 

• He’s never survived a game, usually going down on turn 2 or 3.
• He’s never failed to kill the target I dropped him on, almost always my opponents nastiest assault squad’s transport.
• Since I’ve started taking him, I’ve not lost my terminators. That’s huge, as before I always had trouble getting my points out of my terminators.
• I have NEVER been disappointed at my Ironclad’s performance.

 

I think, as with any other unit, my Ironclad has been working out so well for me because I built him into the army, and the army around him. In my setup it’s not really the ironclad that’s the real threat, it’s the locator on his drop pod. I blow 200ish points popping my opponent’s transport and then teleport 10 terminators right where I want them, gaining maximum joy with their heavy flamers. There aren’t too many assault squads out there that will shrug off 18 storm bolter shots and a bizzillion heavy flamer hits. Then they either have to decide if they still feel healthy enough to charge 10 power fists, or they want to tar pit and run form the terminators. Either way, in the games I’ve done this, my opponent wasn’t following his own game plan anymore, he was on his heels and reacting to me for the rest of the game.

 

Of course, your mileage may vary, but I dig my Ironclad.

[Disruptor_fe404]

I'm going to test out:

 

Ironclad with: chainfist (remember, it's not unwieldy on a walker), heavy flamer, meltagun.

Stormraven with: TL MM & TL LC (though realistically these can be whatever), locator beacon.

 

Zoom close to where you want your Ironclad to drop, use Skies of Fury and the Locator Beacon to drop off the Ironclad, which then pops smoke. At this point, your Stormraven can still shoot stuff too. The Raven will probably be carrying another unit too so they'll be using the Ironclad as cover too.

 

Next turn, Stormraven drops a concussive Stormstrike missile on whatever the Ironclad is going to charge (if it's a MC or something with high initiative that can actually stop the Ironclad) and the Ironclad slams into it.

[TSgt Hivemind]

Sounds good, but everyone is still talking about somehow dropping the ironclad in the middle of the opponents army.  Any thoughts if just walking him?

[WarriorFish]

Walking your Ironclad has never really worked, I've tried it several times. By the time he's yomped across the table half the action is over - he's resilient and built for closing on the enemy so it makes sense to get him into the fray as soon as possible.

 

I like mine as the fairly standard build, heavy flamer and melta to dish out some pain prior to the face beating with the seismic hammer. Hunter Killers are nice if you have the points, as they can add some extra AT to the initial salvo and also give you the option of reaching out to targets out of melta range should you need it. Don't forget the new rules for grenades making the Ironclad launchers quite useful now.

 

Last but not least as Creeger said the Ironclad greatly benefits from having support. If he's going in alone then he's likely going to be a one shot, but if he's part of a combined force assaulting the enemy lines then your results will be much better, even if this is popping something on arrival and then taking all the flak!

[DarkGuard]

If the post is from 2010 and you're starting a generic discussion about that unit, just start a new one, no need to drag up the past when talking about the present.

 

With that in mind, this topic has been split from the necro'ed thread.

[TSgt Hivemind]

Yeah, sorry about that.  I thought having the old stuff on here would somehow give us a place to start the discussion.

 

Back on topic, i definitly understand that the Ironclad is best supported by another dropped unit.  But if you do that you end up having to have tons of stuff in pods that you may not want to.  From my understanding of the drop pod assault rule, you have to have 50% of your pods drop in the first turn.  So if you wanted another unit, say Sternguard to drop with him, you'd have to have 4 units in pods.  2 for first turn and 2 coming in normally later.  I've got other deepstriking stuff, but not that much!

 

I really like the locator beacon+terminator idea.  Very cool. 

[pyroknight]

Don't forget about rounding up.  You can have 3 pods and bring in 2 on the first turn and 1 on  later turns. (if i recall correctly)

Also don't forget that a 5 man assault squad can come with a free drop pod, if you need a cheap way to add more drop pods. 

[TSgt Hivemind]

I don't know.  Still seems a bit silly to add extra units like that.  A 5 man assault squad without jump packs is just silly.  And don't they get a free rhino, not drop pod?

[W0lfie]

The only "delivery system" I've ever been satisfied with for my ironclads is the lucius drop pod.  I find they are not worth it if you are not getting into assault, and a single melta can ruin your walker in that one turn it has to just sit around and flamer stuff.  If you want melta dropped near a landraider, sternguard have got your back.  If you want anti-horde shots dropping down...still sternguard.  If it walks, it dies.  If it sits still, it does.  If it drops down and hides in an assault, it survives.  Pretty simply, I've found.

[WarriorFish]

3 Drop Pods also works for getting a couple in first turn as pyro says. A Tactical squad has proved an effective podding buddy for my Ironclad, I prefer to having Sterns drop in later. It prevents them getting mauled early on and makes them an excellent reserve to commit to a crucial point. People rightly respect what Sternguard can do, but when they keep turning up unannounced to foil their strategies that soon becomes fear and hate

[Iron Father Ferrum]

I pulled this over from a previous thread on the same topic, talking about why you should always take the Assault Launchers.  Seemed to make more sense than rewriting everything.

 

 

Then let's look at what advantages the assault launchers give, shall we? But first, let's look at the greatest threats to the Ironclad you are most likely to face (and I caveat that because honestly, everyone knows by now that massed gauss fire will kill anything with an Armor Value).

 

Greatest Shooting Threat: meltaguns. Why? Because the Ironclad's mission and most common means of deployment involve it getting as close as it can as fast as it can, usually via drop pod. The enemy is going to have one turn -- two at the abosolute most -- to kill it with a gun before it can charge into an enemy infantry unit, thus preventing a shooting death. Even in an age where lascannons are regaining a measure of popularity, half-range melta is still the single best source for a one shot-one kill option against an armored target. There are three common types of meltas: the inferno pistol, the meltagun (including combi-versions), and the multimelta. Two out of the three, and the two which are undoubtedly the most commonly seen on the tabletop, have their "half-range" ability inside the 8" Stealth bubble of the Ironclad's defensive grenades. Terrain isn't even required; Stealth plus smoke launchers equals a 4+ cover save against a weapon which is in 95% of cases a single-shot weapon. Effectiveness of defensive grenades drops of course when being fired at by a multimelta due to its longer range, but even then, careful positioning by the Ironclad's player can mitigate this effect. By closing on the target as much as humanly possible, one can close to within the 8" sweet spot. If the offending multimelta is infantry-carried, then the enemy has to either attempt to shoot through the cover save at normal BS or -- if possible -- move the weapon-bearer outside of the sweet spot. . . at which point they're resorting to snap fire. Vehicle-mounted multimeltas are another story altogther of course. A pintle-mount on a Land Raider or Land Speeder doesn't particularly care, but a Storm Raven will have to go into hover mode to get an effective shot (at which point the rest of the army can dump into it) and it's simply counter-intuitive for another Dreadnought to back away from a walker-slap-fight in order to pop a shot (this comment made on the basis that most of the time, a Dreadnought with multimelta is going to have a DCCW as well). And as a final comment on this, the shift in general 6th Edition list-building in going infantry-heavy as opposed to armor-heavy has made meltaguns ever more rare, and AV13 isn't afraid of S7 unless you have a LOT of it.

 

 

Great Close Combat Threat: chainfists, thunder hammers, and DCCWs. I deliberately left out power fists from that list because S8 against AV13 -- usually with only two swings needing a 4+ to connect -- is such a ludicrous chance of doing serious damage that it's not worth debating. Thunder hammers also have a similar poor chance at penetrating, but the abundance of Hammernators in many MEQ armies means that you're dealing with a numbers game, so good hits are possible when you're throwing that many dice. Chainfists are comparatively rare, but their ability to cut AV13 make them more dangerous than thunder hammers are on an individual basis. And lastly, Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons hit at a big S10, so they too are able to punch an Ironclad's armor with relative ease. So how do the assault launchers mitigate these threats? In two ways.

 

1. Defensive Grenades deny charge-attack bonuses. Five Hammernators charging your Ironclad will, without modifiers, deliver fifteen total attacks. Some quick averages work dictates about seven or eight hits, only two of which are actually putting damage through. Without their bonus charge attacks, however, they throw their standard ten attacks, landing five hits and only one of which actually puts damage through. Since they are Unwiedly and the Ironclad is not, this means that the Ironclad has the opportunity to further reduce the incoming attacks with its own at-Initiative attacks first (but let's be fair; we're talking about storm shields, so the big guy'll be lucky if he nails more than one Termie). It's not a huge shift, but it's significant enough that he's likely to survive at least the first round of combat. And before anyone brings up the Concussive rule, read it again -- it specifically states that in order for Concussive to affect the model in question, it has to have lost a wound. And Dreadnoughts do not have a Wounds stat. Against chainfists and other walkers, the difference is even more pronounced. The average Tactical Terminator squad has only one or two chainfists; regular and Venerable loyalist Dreadnoughts are all a base of two attacks, and I've yet to see anyone field a Chaos Dreadnought. Even the Defiler and the Fiends find 90% of their use as fire support, not charging forward to rip things to shreds. These types of units rely on getting the extra attack from charging in order to ensure that they're putting damage on the target. If you then take away those extra attacks, you're levelling the odds in your favor.

 

2. Offensive Grenades allow him to strike at Initiative 4 when charging into terrain. This means that when he is charging, regardless of the terrain or lack thereof that he is running through, he gets to strike before any infantry-carried CCW that is capable of hurting him (and even if you are charging a fellow Dreadnought, I'd rather have four attacks at I4 than two attacks at I4). Power fists, chain fists, and thunder hammers all have to wait their turn while the Ironclad lays out four bone-crushing S10 AP2 attacks. If you're lucky or good, you just might squash that Tactical Sergeant with his power fist or the lone chain fist-wielding Terminator before he even gets to swing. Oh, and let's be fair again: you shouldn't be charging an Ironclad into a mass of Hammernators, unless there is some dire consequence to the rest of the game if you don't.

 

Not exactly concise, I know, but that is why I always, always, always recommend Ironclad Assault Launchers.

[Zombie P]

I think Ironclads got considerably better. They have no need to fear all the krak grenade toting marines out there, and they simply rock. 

There is some mathammer somewhere on the internet about how the chainfist is better than the hammer, and how the hurricane bolter is terrible, but apart from that, they are a great additions to any force. 

 

My thoughts, ZP

[Disruptor_fe404]

I'd like to echo Deus Ex Ferrum's point concerning the Defensive Grenades. They are extremely useful against meltaguns. Between the Ironclad's own smoke launchers and the ruins and battlefield debris that you should be moving through (the Ironclad has Move Through Cover, remember?), they add a significant (to me) amount of survivability to the Ironclad.