Best Mono God CSM and Daemon alliance?

[Max_Gore]

Greetings Fiends,

 

I'm wondering what combo you guys think is the best. This would most likely be for a CSM as primary (for cult troops) and Daemon allies. Although, since Khorne and Tzeetch have weaker cult troops, I could see Daemons as the primary for them.

 

So yeah, mono god for both armies. What would you guys take?

 

I just got the Daemon codex, so I haven't fully digested it, but I think Slaanesh Marines + Daemons looks very nasty and well rounded. They cover each others weaknesses pretty well.

 

[minigun762]

There is an ongoing thread in the Slaaneshi subforum detailing such a combination.

Overall results have been very positive.

 

Beyond that, I think Nurgle is the best pairing as Plaguebearers free up Plague Marines from camping objectives.

[Fibonacci]

If you want a mono-god army, I would rank them as:

Slaanesh

Nurgle

Khorne

Tzeentch

 

Your results may vary.

[Max_Gore]

Yeah both responses seem about right. I'll check out the Slaanesh subforum.

I'm wondering if Khorne Daemons as primary backed by a Khorne CSM would be workable. Unfortunately though, I think they kinda step on each other's toes... only to me, the Daemons look to do it better.

I'll ponder it over and may ask the Khorne specific forum for advice.

Thanks for the responses.

[Fibonacci]

I ran a Khorne Daemon/CSM army not long ago as part of a team and they performed well.  But I did have a partner and we faced Deathwing deepstriking inside my lines so we got into combat right away.  I don't expect to be so lucky with that every time.

 

If you take a Blood Thirster or some other monster like that, be sure to keep them seperate from your pawns.  Daemonic Instability could cause you to take a bunch of wounds or worse yet, just go *poof* because you lost combat from soaking up attacks with your bloodletters.

[Dam13n]

Absolutely as Fibonacci stated.

Slaanesh - Rending DPs, Cheap Chariots, Blastmasters & Doom Sirens, Feel no Pain Icon, High Initiative, Fiends, Fun Psychic Powers

Nurgle - Plague Marines, Shrouded Flying DPs, Plaguebearers to camp objectives, Arguable the best Witchfire Chaos can get, Nurgle Oblits, Nurgle Bikers

Khorne - Bloodthirster, Jugger-Lord with Axe of Blind Fury, Bloodletters, Khârn, Skullcannons

Tzeentch - 3++ for CSM Characters, Erm... moving on...

Slaanesh works well because you get cheap, yet relatively effective and fast-moving assault units from Daemons, that can be backed up by Doom Siren Noise Marine Squads with Feel no Pain, Chariots and Rending Daemon Princes (great if you taks CSM as Primary so use a Cheap Slaanesh Lord (to make NMs Troops) and a CSM DP with BBoS, Wings - Rending BBoS, yes please!) You then have Blastmaster Squads combined with Heldrakes to kill enemies in cover from range. All in all, the lists synergise well, with the CD offering good, cheap combat units and CSM offering resilience and decent shooting power.

Nurgle doesn't have the potential killing power of the slaanesh list, but makes up for it with even more resilience, Arguably best with Daemons as Primary to best use the Zilla list (GUO, 3 Flying Nurgle DPs from codex Daemons plus 1 from CSM with either the BBoS or the Black Mace, plus a Heldrake, 1 unit of PMs (Elite) plus 10 Cultists (troops) and some Obliterators, then fill the rest of the Daemons with whatever you like to make it legal/give it some staying power/objective holders.

Khorne has some decent assault stuff, Particularly if using a Berserker/Bloodletter 1-2, the Jugger Lord with AoBF, A Bloodthirster for obvious reasons. The Skullcannon provides decent ranged firepower, though a Forgefiend or some Obliterators wouldn't go amiss to back it/them up. Because they're roughly a 50:50 split in terms of what you want, either could work as a primary, though the Warpstorm table would probably swing it for me. It'll be a one-trick-pony list - "munch them in combat" - but I can see it working, unlike...

Tzeentch, well, the Psychic powers can be fun, but aren't really that competitve, the Flamer-Chariot can't really fire if it moves (rider armed with heavy weapons and no relentless ). The "Daemon of..." isn't all that useful - either for CSM or CD, and aside from CSM characters with 3++ saves, I can't get excited about anything they have to offer. Flamers took a nerf, Horrors can be denied their shooting (witchfire) attack, Thousand Sons are fairly lacklustre and expensive, the standard MoT is pretty crap unless given to a unit with a ++ save, and even then, the MoN/S is better for those units. The lists don't really synergise well either, as they don't eliminate the weaknesses of each other.

Just my thoughts anyway...

[the jeske]

 

I can't get excited about anything they have to offer

the black mace.

[Dam13n]

Jeske - The Black Mace is hardly exclusive to Tzeentch, and IMHO better on a Slaanesh or Nurgle Character.

What you quoted of my post was meant to reflect the Tzeentch-exclusive parts of the CSM codex. There's really nothing that Tzeentch offers that isn't trumped by one of the other gods.

- Psychic Powers - Nurgle has better Witchfire, While I like Boon of Mutation, a 1/3 chance of getting it isn't good enough. Nurgle also has better synergy with Biomancy.

- 3++ - arguably +1T and a 4++ is better.

- Thousand Sons - Overpriced and Plague/Noise Marines are better anyway

- MoT Terminators/Obliterators/Mutilators - again beaten by +1T from Nurgle

- Scrolls of Magnus - just not worth it

- MoT CSMs etc - 6++ is largely pointless unless you use loaded dice.

Now, if you can think of a Tzeentch-exclusive thing in the codex that is truly the then I'll be interested to find out what, because every time I look at the options open to a Tzeentch CSM army, I find them even more disappointing.

[Zhorzh]

 

- MoT Terminators/Obliterators/Mutilators - again beaten by +1T from Nurgle

 

I dissagree, MoT is better than MoN on Terminators. MoN is good on Oblits and Muties because they prevent them from dying instantly because of Str 8 and Str 9 weapons, and that's it. Terminators will occasionally die from small arms fire and will die like flies from high Str low AP weapons against which MoN doesn't help. I see MoN Termies being useful against Tyranids, and maybe Necrons and Orks, but in any other cases MoT is a better choice.

[JamesI]

If you want a mono-god army, I would rank them as:

Slaanesh

Nurgle

Khorne

Tzeentch

 

Your results may vary.

That seems about right based on my experience facing them. 

 

Time to start my Mono-Tzeentch army...

[minigun762]

Tzeentch does have the powerful LoC as HQ options.

It's the troop options that are under performers.

[Shuggnuggath]

Lord of Change and Divination is all Tzeentch really has going for it now.

[Dam13n]

Zhorzh - the reason I rate T5 on Terminators over a 4++ comes down to the fact that it limits the wounds suffered by small arms fire (S3 needing 6s, S4 needing 5s, etc.) and less wounds means less armour saves to make means less casualties.  Also, using barricades/ruins etc for a 4+ cover nullifies the need for a 4++, especially as there aren't many weapons that have AP2 and Ignores Cover (Tau and Markerlights are the only situation I can think of).

 

Plus if you're using them as Termicide, you'll look to kill the unit with the most AP2/AP1 firepower when you arrive, at which point the T5 comes in handy against the storm of small arms fire that'll then be directed into them - and the more shots they take to kill means less firepower directed into the rest of your army.

 

You could raise the Dark Eldar as an example of an army that cares nothing for T5 (over T4), however their splinter weapons are low AP so equally don't care about the 4++ and their AP2/1 weapons still fall into the ++ vs Cover category.  Now with Tyranids and Poisoned attacks (which are CC only), you can make a case for the 4++ being better than T5, but that's one situation - and if those Tyranids are making it into combat(s that they can win) with you, then you've made a tactical error.

 

Now if you play on an open table, or one which has nothing better than a 5+ cover, and your opponent has lots of AP2/1 - then I can see the advantage of a 4++.  But for most games, I would still prefer them to be T5.  I don't tailor lists, so would much prefer to go with T5, as it's more useful, more of the time.

 

- - - - - - -

 

Minigun - Yes, the Lord of Change is pretty decent, especially if given Divination.  However, the Bloodthirster is a better Flying Monster in terms of combat, and has a decent non-psychic shooting attack from the whip.  The other problem I have with the LoC is that it's only ML1, for 230pts and it's 25pts per additional level.  So you're sinking a lot of points into him.

 

Add in the proliferation of Farseers and Rune Priests that I see in armies either as Primary HQs or Allies, and suddenly the LoC really starts to lose out against the Bloodthirster.

 

The other issue is that the Daemon Prince of Tzeentch isn't as useful as the other "DPs of..." and one of the main reasons I would take any Greater Daemon would be to unlock the "Daemon Princes of that God as Heavy Support" option.

 

- - - - - - -

 

Of course these are just my opinions, make of them what you will.

[Shuggnuggath]

LoC is Mastery level 2

[TheDevourer]

I´ve found LoC and Tzeentch dp´s with staffs to be very good. Staff bumps them up to S8. The reroll of 1´s is very handy aswell. The LoC casts some neat spells to support them. I´ll admit that the staff can also be risky if you fry someone in a challenge, but it does deal a potential tonne of damage to all enemy units aswell. It just really hurts the dp too.

[abadizzle]

I've been playing w ideas for mono-god alliances... They seem really limited in terms of covering eachothers weaknesses. What one CSM list does well is usually what the daemon counterparts do well and vice-versa.

 

Here are a few ideas I've been considering-

 

Khorne rush/saturation list- AoBF juggerlord+ BBoS Pfist juggerlord w/ 15 MoK raptors. 2x5-man MoK bikers w/ melta +Pfist champ. 2x8-man berzerkers in rhinos (yes, rhinos) 2x10 man cultists. 3 maulerfiends. Allied 2 bloodthirsters and 2x10 man bloodletters. While I haven't crunched the pts, this list seems very in your face and surprisingly fast for a primary CSM. Unfortunately, codex Daemons probably does the rush/saturation melee mono-khorne list better- relying on the flying circus of course.

 

Tzeentch divination list- ML3 divination LoC, 2x ML2 divination heralds on disc w/ 6-9 screamers. 2x10 pink horros, 2 ML2 telepathy DPs. Allied ML3 Tzeentch telepathy termi sorcerer, 9 tzeentch termis w combi-plas, 2x chainfist, axes. 2x20 tzeentch (yes, tzeentch) cultists, vindicator. This list, while really too light on ranged support could potentially saturate the table w 3++ or invisible cultists and termis. That is, of course, if your divination psykers get the '4++ blessing'

 

Those seem to synergize pretty well in my opinion- haven't played w mono-nurgle ideas much- they seem pretty straight forward though. Mono-slaanesh is something that doesn't appeal to me- but I'd definitely hope for plenty of invisibility to cover my units advance and reduce the opponents WS to 1 in CC.

[the jeske]

 

Jeske - The Black Mace is hardly exclusive to Tzeentch, and IMHO better on a Slaanesh or Nurgle Character.

doesnt change the fact that there is one thing about it that is good.

[minigun762]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a big fan of the Bloodthirster. I plan on adding one even.

I still think the LoC is in the same ballpark level of power though.

[Godhead]

LOC will double out t4 characters where at best the blood thirster will need 6s assuming both take upgrades. Loc has the ability to have a more robust ranged attack in the way of flickering flame. I think csm brings a lot in the way of the humble csm to a daemon list, and the fmcs do the same for a csm list. In my opinion cult troops aren't worth the expense most of the time.

[abadizzle]

You can always use 'smash' to instakill T4 or T5 characters... The bloodthirster can also take a blade of blood for rampage, and or the 'attention seeker' exalted sword- +D3 attacks from each is amazing w 'smash' as youll have at least 5 S10 Initiative 10 attacks (if outnumbered) but up to 9... Pretty good character killer in my opinion.

 

The LoC's character killing ability is hurt because his damn staff explodes- not rarely causing wounds on yourself... He's still amazing due to Divination buffs...

 

I ran 2 of each in a 2500 pt daemon vs daemon battle w my buddy. He used 4 bloodthirsters. The LoCs Divination powers helped my thirsters annihilate his... They're both very good characters in my opinion, but the LoC does have more flexibility