Dreadnought Support

[Justicar Enethys]

Hi Guys n Gals. 

I've recently been playing Terminator heavy lists, but am having difficulty with what to do with Dreadnoughts as support. Basically, however I run the rest of my list (My gaming group plays large 2,500 point games) - I'm always a little uncertain with what to do with my last 260/270 points.

I have lately been playing with 2 Dreadknights, but decided to try out 1 Dreadknight and 2 Dreadnoughts instead. 2 Dreadnoughts with Assault Cannons, Storm Bolters and Psybolt Ammo comes to 260 points and directly replaces the 2nd Dreadknight. These guys I have used in amongst my Terminator lines providing more dakka. They cost only 25 points more than a Terminator with a Psycannon and a Terminator with a Storm Bolter combined, but they offer the ability to fire on different targets (As my Terminator blobs largely decimate whatever they shoot at) and a bit of a distraction from the line troops. Of course there's also the reinforced Aegis. If they go down it's no big deal, but they have proved relatively useful. Psycannons work against pretty much everything as we all know, and an extra couple of storm bolters, while not game changing, doesn't hurt - especially at S5.

 

On the flip side, there's the Psyfleman Dread. I could play 2 of these instead (The 10 points to make the 270 total can easily be found). Of course they offer more range, better odds of downing a flyer and provide longer range heavy support which our lists sorely lack as a rule. The general consensus is that these would be the way to go. However, for all the supposed bonuses of taking them, I find them a little soulless and cookie cutter. I do play to win with my mates, but I'd rather not go super-generic with these unless they really are by far and away the best option.

In my lists they do aid in Anti-Air as largely I only use 1 Stormraven as well, but I could easily substitute in an ADL operated by a small squad of Strikes to help fill that void. Either way, the lone remaining Dreadknight in my list can have between 5 and 10 Interceptors supporting him so I'm not too worried about him either. 

What are peoples opinions here? Are regular Dreadnoughts in a list, directly supporting Terminators and providing the Reinforced Aegis and a distraction for the opponent viable? Or are Psyflemen the only way to go about Dreadnoughts in 6th for GKs now?

[Gentlemanloser]

I like Dreads with CCW.  Thing is, they get easily murderised in 6th from Rapid Fire Plasma guns and even Krak grenades on Tac Squads.

 

If we have AV13 Dreads, I'd run Close Combat versions of them.

 

As it is, keep them at distance, outrange most of the nasty stuff, and hide in cover.  That's the way to use Dreads in 6th.

 

Which really only suits 2 x TL Autocannon set ups.

 

Sadly.

[thade]

Dreads effectively have an assault ramp on Storm Ravens, so you can swoop them in and dump them straight into melee with an infantry blob or even a vehicle. That opens up some possibilities for a more melee-kitted dread...but it's highly specified and makes for an obvious target.

[Justicar Enethys]

I figured as much to be honest. The game I played last weekend running my 2 Dreads in amongst the Terminators went well, but largely because my opponent didn't see much of a threat in them and so left them until Turn 4/5. They accounted for a Storm Talon, Razorback, Attack Bike and most of a Tactical Squad between them by the time they did get hammered, which I was impressed by. On that performance I'd run them frequently, as aesthetically, they are much more pleasing in my opinion. However, next game my opponents will not go as easy on them and I see them being chewed up and spat out without much of a second thought. My opponent misjudged them and he won't do it again. 

I hate to think Psyflemen are the only way to go, as it doesn't fit with how I see Grey Knights playing, but ultimately I fear that to have any chance of them being remotely decent, quad barrel Dreads are the only way forward. I'll play models I like over most factors, but when those models will ultimately achieve nothing - I have to wonder.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

PsyDreads are still pretty relevant, although depending on matchup you can go DK instead. They're still great at wrecking transports, Flyers and putting wounds on infantry. All from a comfortable 48", don't even need to leave your DZ. 

 

Melee Dreads have never been worth it, not in any edition of 40k. Ignore the siren song of the Storm Raven grapples. That's GW trolling you to an early grave. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Last edition, dual Blood Talon Bangle Dreads in Ravens rocked hardcore.

 

I slaughtered marines with my eyes closed with them.

 

It was embarrising.

 

Unless I went second and the Raven ate it to a Krak Missile, of course. ;)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Last edition, dual Blood Talon Bangle Dreads in Ravens rocked hardcore.

I slaughtered marines with my eyes closed with them.

It was embarrising.

Unless I went second and the Raven ate it to a Krak Missile, of course.

BA are usually too busy flying Libby Dreads around the table. But yeah, Blood Talons were retardedly good in 5th. Nowadways though, a single Icarus or Broadside team is going to ruin your day (auto S10 to rear armour if the Raven dies is brutal).

[Valerian]

Melee Dreads have never been worth it, not in any edition of 40k. Ignore the siren song of the Storm Raven grapples. That's GW trolling you to an early grave.

Agreed. WS4 and 2 Attacks is pretty weak. Dreadknights are in close combat what Dreadnoughts always should have been.

 

Valerian

[Justicar Enethys]

Couldn't agree more re: CC Dreads. I initially wondered when I made this thread if Dreads were viable in a close range fire support role (Not CC), providing more dakka while offering a diversion from my Terminators and providing Reinforced Aegis. While they did actually perform well in that role in a couple of games, there have been many more where they weren't impressive at all. Psyflemen, while in my opinion lacking in aesthetic appeal and a certain 'character', are worth their cost and including in lists. They perform well and provide my GK with more AA fire and can threaten distant targets my Psycannon/SB Dreads can't. In future I shall be keeping to my 4 barreled menaces! 

I love Dreadnoughts and do wish they were more use in CC than they are currently (It doesn't take much), but we do have DK's which kerb-stomp most things quite spectacularly - so I guess we get it good ultimately. Just wish they didn't compete for the same slots! 

[Reclusiarch Darius]

'Reinforced Aegis' isn't something that matters against most matchups. It's certainly handy against Daemons (stacked with 'Shrouding', it really nerfs their shooting), but most other races use regular guns over psychic powers. 

 

If you wanna go close fire support Dreads, take plasma cannons or multi-meltas. Knights lack AP2 and true anti-tank (psycannons are decent but are better applied against infantry), and a basic Dread with heavy flamer+DCCW+plasma cannon/multi-melta is a cheap little fire support module. He also absorb the kinda stuff that kills Terminators (anti-tank etc), and he can jam up enemy infantry for you or pile into a problem unit you're stuck in. I'm gonna trial this myself, I'm finding PsyDreads a little lackluster in 6th. 

[Gentlemanloser]

Reinforced Aeigs isn't really that hot versus Daemon Shooting.

 

As it's thier turn, they'll apply the -4 first, before the +3 from being a Daemon of T.

[Justicar Enethys]

Certainly they can work Darius. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, in a recent game I ran 2 close support Dreads and they really did make quite a mark for themselves. I've tried them with AssCans and Psybolt Ammo as well as Plasma Cannons - though never a Multi Melta. I started to drop them from my lists as they either did very well and made a bit of a name for themselves with some of my regular opponents, or didn't do much at all. It was the fact they would then get picked out early on which made me question their future place in my list. However - as I've mentioned before, I'd like for them to be viable as Psyflemen just lack a certain something for me. They're solid picks for a list, and tend to always be useful in some way, but they just strike me as rather dull.

I certainly think there's a balance to be made with close support Dreads. It is to be accepted they probably won't last the game, but if they get off a few shots and do some damage while absorbing some damage which would have been otherwise destined for some of your other units (Walking Terminator troops in my case) they may yet find a place in my lists.

 

Dreadnoughts walking forward are considered history by most interwebz wisdom - but I don't know where that wisdom comes from and what it's based on when specifically comparing the survivability of close support Dreads to Psyfleman. Sure - Close Support Dreads often come to within range of more weapons which can do something, but let's face it - things which can just glance them are S6. There aren't too many weapons which are S6+ which couldn't be hitting you from further afield than your Dreads threat range anyway. In my lists in particular, if the Dread is close enough to be hitting you up close and you're directing lots of fire into it - you're making a mistake and should be instead focusing on the 25 Terminators about to roll you. Putting a Psyfleman at the rear of my forces to provide support fire doesn't offer any more guarantee of survival. Incoming flyers prioritise them, Outflankers and Deep Strikers like to make a mess of them - and the 'safety' of 48" isn't all that safe. GKs lack weaponry which reaches that far - hence the Psyflemans only real reason for being so seriously considered - but most other armies don't have that limitation and my Dreads have been waxed at 48" + on many an occassion. Dreads scream 'easy KP' to me - but I love the models and am looking for a way to best incorporate them.

As for the Reinforced Aegis comment. I mentioned it as it IS a bonus. Not a great one - not really game changing and often not useful at all - but it is free and it does provide another - albeit slight - benefit to fielding them. I can think of only a handful of occassions that RA was helpful. But as I don't pay to upgrade the Dread with it - I'm not complaining.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

 

Certainly they can work Darius. Like I mentioned earlier in this thread, in a recent game I ran 2 close support Dreads and they really did make quite a mark for themselves. I've tried them with AssCans and Psybolt Ammo as well as Plasma Cannons - though never a Multi Melta. I started to drop them from my lists as they either did very well and made a bit of a name for themselves with some of my regular opponents, or didn't do much at all. It was the fact they would then get picked out early on which made me question their future place in my list. However - as I've mentioned before, I'd like for them to be viable as Psyflemen just lack a certain something for me. They're solid picks for a list, and tend to always be useful in some way, but they just strike me as rather dull.

Dreadnoughts have always been a bit gimpy in most lists. GW just doesn't know whether to make them melee or shooty, or what their stats should be. 

 

My personal feeling is WS5/BS5, AV12 (13 for Venerables), 3A base, all for ~120pts. That makes them reasonably priced, but not the ludicrous ~175 Vens currently command. 

[Justicar Enethys]

Completely agree with that. Venerable Dreadnoughts are now a joke in our list. Hull Point shenanigans have meant that the inflated price we pay for them make them an absolute no go in our lists. 

 

I'm playing another couple of games later this week and plan on running a couple of close support Dreads in my list. They will both run at 135 points (P.Cannon/DCCW/H.Flamer  +  AssCan/DCCW/S.Bolter w. Psybolt Ammo) so they're the same as Psyflemen in investment. Whether they achieve miracles or not - I think they should be fun and are pretty cost effective as a rule :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Completely agree with that. Venerable Dreadnoughts are now a joke in our list. Hull Point shenanigans have meant that the inflated price we pay for them make them an absolute no go in our lists.

To be fair, HP has made vehicles irrelevant if they're not A: cheap or B: a Flyer overnight. Too easy to glance down, and unlike infantry you have to scrounge to get anything better than a 5+ on most things in terms of saves.

I'm playing another couple of games later this week and plan on running a couple of close support Dreads in my list. They will both run at 135 points (P.Cannon/DCCW/H.Flamer + AssCan/DCCW/S.Bolter w. Psybolt Ammo) so they're the same as Psyflemen in investment. Whether they achieve miracles or not - I think they should be fun and are pretty cost effective as a rule

I'd go plasma cannon on both really. We have psycannons galore, but AP2 blasts are absolutely clutch against enemy heavy infantry. Our Terminators and Paladins can tango with enemy Terminators, but we'd rather fight unfairly ;) . Heavy flamers are always good, especially on Overwatch.

[Justicar Enethys]

I've been thinking on this matter a while now and have tried both configurations out. There are pros and cons to each, but my feelings on the Plasma Cannon at the moment are to leave it alone. It has better range than the Psycannon and is AP2, Blast which all sounds great, and indeed can be. Certainly things we need more of in our list. However:

 

1/     Plasma Cannons can't target flyers at a pinch where Psycannons can. Sure - no close support Dread should be stepping onto the table with this primary function in mind - but the AA element is one to consider. I have downed Vendettas, Storm Talons and Heldrakes in the past with lucky bursts from Psycannons from Terminator squads. Not much of a shot when needing 6's to hit, but when needs must it is nice to have the back up option. With a Plasma Cannon you will never have this option, unless the enemy flyer drops to skimmer, in which case it has bigger issues against my list than a Plasma Cannon.

 

2/     Scatter. It doesn't put me off a weapon by itself, but it is a random factor. I don't pay much for my close support Dreadnoughts as I don't expect them to live too long. They are there because I think they look awesome and to provide cheap support and a diversion for the opponents bigger guns. As a result, I want them to be as useful as possible in the limited time they have on the table. You scatter one or two shots and they probably won't get to make a third. Yes they're cheap, but if they achieve nothing on the board, they were a waste.

 

3/     Blast. I know what you are saying about AP2 blasts and do agree with you - honestly :D However, the small blast template against enemy Terminators? You are lucky if you are facing opponents who group their Terminators so closely that you can hit more than 1 per shot. I may clip two from time to time (I believe a personal record was 3 once) but it is rare. The small blast is not all that. If a Plasma Cannon fired the large blast - I'd be all over the weapon. Yesh please. One shot could make all the difference. As it is - meh. 

4/     Gets Hot. A minor factor really - but one to consider nonetheless. More randomness in a unit that you want to be cheap, effective and reliable in it's limited time. Scatter and Gets Hot make this weapon the most unreliable we have. Not the worst as such, but the most unreliable. On a unit which you want to reliably do something in a couple of turns at best.

 

5/     Friendly Fire! OK - maybe I should have put this in with scatter, but this can be a factor depending on the list you run. I often have 2 Dreadknights and Interceptors in my opponents lines. Many people will do. Throwing inaccurate blast templates into the mix could lead to some embarrassing misfires there! In all honesty I'd find it funny and part of a good laugh shared while playing 40K. But were the game to be a close fought one - this might not prove so funny in the long run.


The Psycannon/Storm Bolter option on a Close Support Dreadnought is something we have ample of already, but it's not to say it's bad. The Psycannon is one of the better weapons in the game (My list is primarily Terminators as Troops so while we don't get as many of them as many lists - we ALWAYS fire the Heavy mode) and another one is no bad thing. The Psybolt Ammo affects both weapons so you get value for money. It costs 5 points less than a Plasma Cannon/Heavy Flamer on that note. It's range is less - but it can threaten anything - which the Plasma Cannon can't. 4 shots, rending, at S7 is reliable. Not exciting maybe - but reliable. 


Just want to add I'm not throwing this out there to be annoying or refute what you say. This is my personal experience and recent decision on the matter. I've found Plasma Cannons Dreads - even in 6th - to be great fun - and a few weeks ago I might have been trying to preach the other way - but the more games I get under my belt, the more I don't see an extra 4 ST, Rending shots with 2 S5 supporting shots at complimentary ranges (Both on the Dread itself and army wide) as a bad thing - even if it is just more of the same :)

[Reclusiarch Darius]

1/ Plasma Cannons can't target flyers at a pinch where Psycannons can. Sure - no close support Dread should be stepping onto the table with this primary function in mind - but the AA element is one to consider. I have downed Vendettas, Storm Talons and Heldrakes in the past with lucky bursts from Psycannons from Terminator squads. Not much of a shot when needing 6's to hit, but when needs must it is nice to have the back up option. With a Plasma Cannon you will never have this option, unless the enemy flyer drops to skimmer, in which case it has bigger issues against my list than a Plasma Cannon.

Irrelevant. If you want AA support, just take a PsyDread. If you aren't taking a PsyDread, you should focus on ground support. Plasma cannons are the bane of Marine lists and do horrible things to xenos elite stuff as well.

2/ Scatter. It doesn't put me off a weapon by itself, but it is a random factor. I don't pay much for my close support Dreadnoughts as I don't expect them to live too long. They are there because I think they look awesome and to provide cheap support and a diversion for the opponents bigger guns. As a result, I want them to be as useful as possible in the limited time they have on the table. You scatter one or two shots and they probably won't get to make a third. Yes they're cheap, but if they achieve nothing on the board, they were a waste.

They're blast weapons, it goes with the territory. As a tip, I'd try to aim your blasts so that even if it scatters badly, you're still likely to catch something. Its very much a judgement call, and I miss too. BS4 reduces the problem somewhat but I know what you mean. This is precisely why I attach Coteaz to my plasma cannon servitor unit (or 'Prescience' Inquisitors, if I'm fielding multiples), so I can re-roll horrendous scatter.

3/ Blast. I know what you are saying about AP2 blasts and do agree with you - honestly However, the small blast template against enemy Terminators? You are lucky if you are facing opponents who group their Terminators so closely that you can hit more than 1 per shot. I may clip two from time to time (I believe a personal record was 3 once) but it is rare. The small blast is not all that. If a Plasma Cannon fired the large blast - I'd be all over the weapon. Yesh please. One shot could make all the difference. As it is - meh.

Deepstrike. Deathwing do it, Knights do it sometimes as well, and almost all Marine players do it too (as they no longer take Raiders). Also, even with good spacing, if you're killing 1-2 Terminators a turn, that's a good use of points. Terminators are usually a pain to gun down, as they're designed to tank small arms and even anti-transport stuff like autocannons. AP2 is huge. Again though, I know what you mean, smart spacing can rob you of a lot of kills. Large Blast would be kinda stupid though, there is a reason the Riptide is so pricey.

I can see what you're saying, and if the psycannon works better, go for it. They're both excellent weapon options.

[Justicar Enethys]

I never stated that I wanted or would consider it for AA support though and so my point isn't irrelevant I appreciate that a Psyfleman will always be better at AA than a Psycannon armed Close Support Dread - but were you to have another Dread in your list - having it be able to take shots (Rending at that) at a flyer if absolutely needed - is a good thing. I was weighing up pros and cons of two different weapons. That one can do something (Albeit at a pinch and in a tight spot) and the other can't makes it relevant

As I mentioned - scatter in itself wouldn't put me off. I've enjoyed playing with Plasma Cannon toting Dreads before in very casual games and they were a laugh. Toasting 2 of my own Interceptors when they were assumed safe - after an 8" scatter was unfortunate . . . but hilarious However - my main point was that they are unreliable. Not awful - just unpredictable to a large degree. When they hit (And wound and no invulnerable saves are made - let's not pretend hitting equals killing 1-2 of anything a turn for sure) - and there will always be targets as you mention - they are gorgeous - but for something which I want to maximise effiiciency with in a likely short period of time - the Plasma Cannon introduces a random element. Perhaps too random - perhaps not. They sure as hell look good.

I'm not necessarily going to take a close support Dreadnought at all in my lists, though if I could find a sweet spot I almost certainly would for looks and character alone. My Psyflemen will still be around - but I'd sooner not spam 3 of them. I hope my lists are a little more colorful for not resorting to that This thread is to try and determine if there are ways to get the most out of them and see how people are doing it. We both know how to aim a blast weapon and have the T-Shirt (I've been playing since 2nd Ed), so no need to go there.

[Reclusiarch Darius]

I never stated that I wanted or would consider it for AA support though and so my point isn't irrelevant I appreciate that a Psyfleman will always be better at AA than a Psycannon armed Close Support Dread - but were you to have another Dread in your list - having it be able to take shots (Rending at that) at a flyer if absolutely needed - is a good thing. I was weighing up pros and cons of two different weapons. That one can do something (Albeit at a pinch and in a tight spot) and the other can't makes it relevant

Yeah, but its not a strong argument in favour of the psycannon, was my point. Hitting on 6's, with only 4 shots, isn't good odds. On average you don't even ping the enemy Flyer once. Worse, you will need a 5+ to even strip a HP, and a 6 to pen (assuming AV12). Plasma cannon does nothing, but that's fine, I didn't bring a mid-field support Dread to counter Flyers anyway.

As I mentioned - scatter in itself wouldn't put me off. I've enjoyed playing with Plasma Cannon toting Dreads before in very casual games and they were a laugh. Toasting 2 of my own Interceptors when they were assumed safe - after an 8" scatter was unfortunate . . . but hilarious However - my main point was that they are unreliable. Not awful - just unpredictable to a large degree. When they hit (And wound and no invulnerable saves are made - let's not pretend hitting equals killing 1-2 of anything a turn for sure) - and there will always be targets as you mention - they are gorgeous - but for something which I want to maximise effiiciency with in a likely short period of time - the Plasma Cannon introduces a random element. Perhaps too random - perhaps not. They sure as hell look good.

Hitting usually means kills, unless they have strong cover/invul or you roll 1's to wound.

They're not as unreliable as psycannon can be. At least blast weapons usually hit something, I've had psycannon roll an abysmal string of 1's and 2's before and screw me. Hence why I try and take as much 'Prescience' as I can squeeze into my lists, re-rolls massively help Knights come back from terrible rolls.

We both know how to aim a blast weapon and have the T-Shirt (I've been playing since 2nd Ed), so no need to go there.

? Forgive my ignorance, I don't know the reference

[Justicar Enethys]

Again - I acknowledge that it isn't great for flyers. I'm not sure how many times this needs pointing out. It was mentioned - quite clearly - as a bonus point in favour of a Psycannon. No it's not good as AA and isn't to be brought for that purpose. I'm not sure anyone would do that - but it has the potential if you're desperate to take off that last hull point from a pesky flyer, to do it. A Plasma Cannon can't. When weighing up a choice between two weapons you have to factor everything and make a choice on what suits you and your list. All the factors includes ALL the factors. That it can down a flyer is a potential some may want. Assuming AV 12 head on all the time isn't the way to go. It CAN take on AV12 as it S7 and rending. Any Pen roll of a 6 makes AV12 a guaranteed penetration. However, glances are still on the cards. And not all flyers are AV12, and those that are aren't AV12 all round necessarily. I've downed Vendettas with shots from a Psycannon in the side, rear and straight into the pilot's eyes ;) Best use for them? Not at all, but it can happen and when it does - is awesome. I'm giving up this point as I am trying to establish the point of adaptability with you when you are quite set on things that can do one thing alone (Your views on Stormravens in the other thread supporting my statement there). Focus is very important- but if something can have a secondary purpose as well 'in case of emergency', all the better in my book.

 

Hitting doesn't usually mean killing. After hitting you have to factor in that you can roll a 1 to wound. Then they can roll invulnerable or cover saves. Cover saves are easy to get. Invulnerable saves on Terminators - which seem to be your point of focus - have a 5++ on standard terminators. So with the potential to roll a 1 to wound and their potential to roll 5+ - you have a 50% chance of not wounding. That's not usually killing. That's 50/50 lol. And let's hope they don't have Storm Shields or anything else which ups their invulnerable . . . If you target non-Terminators, sure - they may very well stand a substantially less chance of surviving - but then in those cases - a Plasma Cannon was probably overkill in the first place.

 

I made the reference you don't understand in response to your, "As a tip, I'd try to aim your blasts so that even if it scatters badly, you're still likely to catch something." I had hoped the thread would be ways to discuss the possibilities of including Dreads as anything but Psyflemen, as while I do field them, they lack character for me. We delved into weapons choices and this reply of yours is fundamentally condescending. My point was that I've been playing since 2nd Edition, but even those who haven't played that long are normally well aware of how to place a blast marker. When weighing up the fact the weapon is a blast weapon and can scatter - this would already be assumed. It doesn't require clarification that you should try to position it for maximum efficiency. In fact - this point leads on to the next quite nicely. Yo have to try and prepare for the randomness of it whenever you shoot.

 

Psycannons missing because the rolls were poor doesn't make them any more unreliable than ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS GAME! They are as reliable as can be. It is a game of dice and so randomness will always be present. But a weapon that doesn't always hit at least where you want it to - IS unreliable. It is random. Saying a Plasma Cannon is more reliable than a Psycannon is one of the strangest things I've heard yet from you. Anything can roll misses really - but at least those misses don't necessarily 'Get Hot' and damage/kill yourself or go drifting off in a random generated direction to a randomly generated distance . . . /sigh.

 

Again - as I have already mentioned - I may not even take a close support Dreadnought in my lists. I haven't recently - though when I have done I have enjoyed them just as they add some character to a list - and it's nice not to always be thinking about the next Universe beating list to end all lists. I wanted to encourage conversation on something I value in 40K and want to see kept alive - as remote as the chance of that may be.

[MayorDaley]

My $0.02,

 

I think that the assault cannon/auto cannon with psybolt ammo is a possibility.

 

Can snap shot flyers.

Can dump shots downrange.

Can pour it on within 24.

 

Sounds decent to me.

 

Food for thought.

[treadhead]

I've been running 2 dreads in my list for a while now both AC/HF with psybolt and psyflame ammos, one regular and one venerable mounted on the back of stormravens

yet to have both of them alive at the end of a game though

[Reclusiarch Darius]

Again - I acknowledge that it isn't great for flyers. I'm not sure how many times this needs pointing out. It was mentioned - quite clearly - as a bonus point in favour of a Psycannon. No it's not good as AA and isn't to be brought for that purpose. I'm not sure anyone would do that - but it has the potential if you're desperate to take off that last hull point from a pesky flyer, to do it. A Plasma Cannon can't. When weighing up a choice between two weapons you have to factor everything and make a choice on what suits you and your list. All the factors includes ALL the factors. That it can down a flyer is a potential some may want. Assuming AV 12 head on all the time isn't the way to go. It CAN take on AV12 as it S7 and rending. Any Pen roll of a 6 makes AV12 a guaranteed penetration. However, glances are still on the cards. And not all flyers are AV12, and those that are aren't AV12 all round necessarily. I've downed Vendettas with shots from a Psycannon in the side, rear and straight into the pilot's eyes Best use for them? Not at all, but it can happen and when it does - is awesome. I'm giving up this point as I am trying to establish the point of adaptability with you when you are quite set on things that can do one thing alone (Your views on Stormravens in the other thread supporting my statement there). Focus is very important- but if something can have a secondary purpose as well 'in case of emergency', all the better in my book.

Specialists perform better than generalists, at least in my experience. As I pointed out, your argument for bringing the assault cannon was precisely 'but it can hit Flyers too', which is a weak argument by definition. My rebuttal was the plasma cannon is death to most infantry, and not hitting Flyers at all makes no real functional difference than a 4-shot weapon that needs 6's in the same slot. So, I know what your argument is, I'm just pointing out its not really relevant.

Hitting doesn't usually mean killing. After hitting you have to factor in that you can roll a 1 to wound. Then they can roll invulnerable or cover saves. Cover saves are easy to get. Invulnerable saves on Terminators - which seem to be your point of focus - have a 5++ on standard terminators. So with the potential to roll a 1 to wound and their potential to roll 5+ - you have a 50% chance of not wounding. That's not usually killing. That's 50/50 lol. And let's hope they don't have Storm Shields or anything else which ups their invulnerable . . . If you target non-Terminators, sure - they may very well stand a substantially less chance of surviving - but then in those cases - a Plasma Cannon was probably overkill in the first place.

It's not that bad. Not in practise. I agree, you can mathhammer it out (and I have), but with reduced cover saves down to 5+ across the board and less ability to obtain cover, I'm finding my plasma does pretty well. Also, all the problems you mentioned apply just as much to the assault cannon.

I made the reference you don't understand in response to your, "As a tip, I'd try to aim your blasts so that even if it scatters badly, you're still likely to catch something." I had hoped the thread would be ways to discuss the possibilities of including Dreads as anything but Psyflemen, as while I do field them, they lack character for me. We delved into weapons choices and this reply of yours is fundamentally condescending. My point was that I've been playing since 2nd Edition, but even those who haven't played that long are normally well aware of how to place a blast marker. When weighing up the fact the weapon is a blast weapon and can scatter - this would already be assumed. It doesn't require clarification that you should try to position it for maximum efficiency. In fact - this point leads on to the next quite nicely. Yo have to try and prepare for the randomness of it whenever you shoot.

Condescending? Okay then

Psycannons missing because the rolls were poor doesn't make them any more unreliable than ANYTHING ELSE IN THIS GAME! They are as reliable as can be. It is a game of dice and so randomness will always be present. But a weapon that doesn't always hit at least where you want it to - IS unreliable. It is random. Saying a Plasma Cannon is more reliable than a Psycannon is one of the strangest things I've heard yet from you. Anything can roll misses really - but at least those misses don't necessarily 'Get Hot' and damage/kill yourself or go drifting off in a random generated direction to a randomly generated distance . . . /sigh.

Again - as I have already mentioned - I may not even take a close support Dreadnought in my lists. I haven't recently - though when I have done I have enjoyed them just as they add some character to a list - and it's nice not to always be thinking about the next Universe beating list to end all lists. I wanted to encourage conversation on something I value in 40K and want to see kept alive - as remote as the chance of that may be.

Descents into hyperbole usually derail threads. All I really said was I prefer plasma cannon to psycannon, and my reasoning why. Could we maybe get back to that discussion, instead of all this other stuff?

[thade]

Something else that derails threads: taking pot shots at one another.

C'mon, folks. Let's keep chatter civil and respectful; it's cool to disagree; it's cool to make your arguments while challenging those of others. It's not cool to make it even a little personal. Be cool. <3

[Justicar Enethys]

This actually was my thread in the beginning and is still very much on topic. Discussing the viability of Dreadnoughts outside of Psyflemen. Something I had hoped to do with my own lists, but am not really making progress with. Discussing the  weapon options for Dreads, the roles they would perform with those load-outs and the primary and secondary targets they are good against and capable against in emergencies is very much the point and the type of information I was interested in. 

 

I don't like relying on Psyflemen as it feels very cookie cutter and I don't like my lists to be that. However, they perform a reliable role and are well priced for what they do. They have seen recent use in a 2,500 list I ran with and they performed admirably.

 

I would like my Dreadnoughts to see more use without their big dakka arms attached, but currently - after much play testing I am about given up. This conversation, as unpleasant as it has become, forced me to start staunchly defending the Psycannon version instead of Plasma Cannon - and in that I have a minor revelation. I guess - should I decide to run them and common sense be damned - that will be the choice I go for. However, initial instinct is proving correct and the odds of being able to do it are slim.

Fingers crossed we one day see a buff to them or even get our own Ironclad/Librarian Dreadnought for a bit more durability and character.