Pure death wing squad size questions

[Dark_Dell]

So I have been taking 5 man squads of terminators and have been finding that even taking one casualty per squad severely limits their combat effectiveness. So I ask the forum is it better to beef up the squad to max number for the 2 heavy weapons or maybe 1 or 2 extra per squad. I have been taking a LRC to and it hasent pulled its weight the passed few games so that's 290 points I can

 

my list is as follows

 

Belial-190

TH/SS

 

Deathwing Command Squad-315

Champ with Hal of Caliban

Apoth(willing to drop)

Deathwing Standard

Plasma cannon

 

5 man Deathwing Terminator Squad- 240

Assault Cannon

 

5 man Deathwing Terminator Squad- 235

Plasma Cannon

 

Deathwing Knights-235(willing to make something else)

 

Land Raider Crusader-290

melta

Deathwing

 

 

Total point 1505

[Isiah]

Personally I prefer the 5-man squads. if you beef the squads up for two heavy weapons then you are stuck with one large unit – DW can't combat squad.

 

It's entirely up to you of course, I just prefer the flexibility and handiness of the smaller units.

 

With Deathwing Knights however there's no harm in maxing out to fit in a Crusader !!

 

Cheers

I

[Brother-Captain Stacius]

I normally take one ten man squad, giving them twin assault cannons. Belial drops in with these, giving my opponent a nasty unit to deal with. A couple of 5 man squads with cyclones, and an aegis.

[Brother Immolator]

Personally I prefer the 5-man squads. if you beef the squads up for two heavy weapons then you are stuck with one large unit – DW can't combat squad.

 

It's entirely up to you of course, I just prefer the flexibility and handiness of the smaller units.

 

With Deathwing Knights however there's no harm in maxing out to fit in a Crusader !!

 

Cheers

I

This but the number for me is 6.

And there is a problem with maxing the squad out for the crusader. I need a libby and belial in there!

If I am gonna invest half my armies points for a single squad and its ride they better hand me the blood thirsters head on a golden platter. In one round! :D

[Dark_Dell]

If I take a vindicator does that make it any less deathwing cause that demolisher is so sexy

[BigGumbo]

I'd say that a bit of Armoury support doesn't dilute the Deathwingness - at least as far as calling your list a "Deathwing list" is concerned :-)

[Interrogator Stobz]

You'd have to remove the "Pure" part from the title but as BigGumbo says, ti would still be a Deathwing army.

[shortysl]

I'm currently running a 10 man squad with twin Assault Cannons, 2x 5man squads with Plasma Cannons and 2x 5 man squads with Cyclones. Belial will be dropping with the large squad while the rest of the army provides support as they advance. That's pretty much my 2000 point army. Might also give those pesky Grey Knights something to worry about too........

[IndigoJack]

I find 7 to be th optimum number but if I'm playing a full DW army i'll run 5 man squads to maximize scoring potential. I don't think 10 man units are great even if you're using belial's accurate deep strike. Basic deep strike defense still applies. Additionally, a balanced list is going to have some kind of defense against the following charge as well whether it's tanks to block fire lanes, bubble wrap, or a counter charge unit. 2 5man units can take full advantage of MSU.

[elphilo]

I find 7 to be th optimum number but if I'm playing a full DW army i'll run 5 man squads to maximize scoring potential. I don't think 10 man units are great even if you're using belial's accurate deep strike. Basic deep strike defense still applies. Additionally, a balanced list is going to have some kind of defense against the following charge as well whether it's tanks to block fire lanes, bubble wrap, or a counter charge unit. 2 5man units can take full advantage of MSU.

I actually really like the 10 man size squad, but only if it has a Librarian. I feel in small 5 man units Prescience gets wasted, but on a 10 man unit, not so much. Otherwise I've been sticking to 5 for scoring reasons as well.

[Tanhausen]

At 1850, I carry Belial + 2 x 10 terminators + 2 x 6 black knights + 5 vets in pod.

 

IME, its greatly depends on how agressive you play them...and in my book, terminators have to get into the thick of the fight, where they shine most.

 

And if I have to assault, having to wether 1 enemy turn of fire + the odd out defensive fire casualty, anything below 8 men is throwing stones on your own roof, so to say.

 

As for DWK...its a unit I really like, but the AP4 is quite meh IMO. If I get a 3++, usually it means I'm hitting guys with a 3+ or better armour...so when I hit back, I wanna kill him. If they were AP3 now...but hey, only vs Chaos.

 

What you play (beer+pretzel or tournament) also shapes significantly your options.

 

If you want to go with the DW theme, without sacrificing everything in the altar of competitiveness, I'd suggest:

 

Belial - 190

 

1 x 10 terminators, double AC - 490

2 x 5 terminators, assault cannon - 490

1 x vindicator - 125

2 x 5 marines, lascannon - 200ish

 

That's 1395 IIRC...so some 100 points to tool around.

 

The list has 7 units, so you can reserve 4 of them (hey, Belial + 3 terminator units...what a coincidence, right? hehe).

 

You have a couple of back field scoring units, with long range high strength weapons, a nice pie plate (though with mid range pie plate) and A LOT of meat in the terminators.

 

Turn 1, drop Belial + 10 in his face

Turn 2, use Belial's beacon, land the other 2 in support roles (usually softening up some multiassault that Belial will do or going for first blood or whatnot).

 Assault with Belial, better if multi and don't exterminate them in your turn, so you remain in CC and don't take back the fire.

Turn 3, your "support" terminator units assault...probably will have lost a body or two (a full squad if the opponent is smart), helping (or not, as needed) the Belial squad.

Turn 4

If you haven't completely won the game by this stage, you can buy your opponent a pretzel/water/local brew :)

 

Hope it helps!

[IndigoJack]

At 1850, I carry Belial + 2 x 10 terminators + 2 x 6 black knights + 5 vets in pod.

IME, its greatly depends on how agressive you play them...and in my book, terminators have to get into the thick of the fight, where they shine most.

And if I have to assault, having to wether 1 enemy turn of fire + the odd out defensive fire casualty, anything below 8 men is throwing stones on your own roof, so to say.

As for DWK...its a unit I really like, but the AP4 is quite meh IMO. If I get a 3++, usually it means I'm hitting guys with a 3+ or better armour...so when I hit back, I wanna kill him. If they were AP3 now...but hey, only vs Chaos.

What you play (beer+pretzel or tournament) also shapes significantly your options.

If you want to go with the DW theme, without sacrificing everything in the altar of competitiveness, I'd suggest:

Belial - 190

1 x 10 terminators, double AC - 490

2 x 5 terminators, assault cannon - 490

1 x vindicator - 125

2 x 5 marines, lascannon - 200ish

That's 1395 IIRC...so some 100 points to tool around.

The list has 7 units, so you can reserve 4 of them (hey, Belial + 3 terminator units...what a coincidence, right? hehe).

You have a couple of back field scoring units, with long range high strength weapons, a nice pie plate (though with mid range pie plate) and A LOT of meat in the terminators.

Turn 1, drop Belial + 10 in his face

Turn 2, use Belial's beacon, land the other 2 in support roles (usually softening up some multiassault that Belial will do or going for first blood or whatnot).

Assault with Belial, better if multi and don't exterminate them in your turn, so you remain in CC and don't take back the fire.

Turn 3, your "support" terminator units assault...probably will have lost a body or two (a full squad if the opponent is smart), helping (or not, as needed) the Belial squad.

Turn 4

If you haven't completely won the game by this stage, you can buy your opponent a pretzel/water/local brew

Hope it helps!

I think when it comes to DWA, it's either all turn 1, or all turn 2. So belial can use DWA to come on turn 1, but the other DW squads will have to roll as normal to come in. That means unlucky reserve rolls will really hurt this army. Additionally, good deployment will negate a lot of what this army will do turn 1, as well as do a good job tearing those turn 1 terminators up.

[Cypher 102]

You can put Belial's squad in Deathwing Assault and your other Deathwing squads in regular deep strike.  However this then puts you at the mercy of your reserve rolls and defeats the purpose of Deathwing Assault.

 

I've been finding that having squads of eight or more Deathwing tends to be overkill.  A Deathwing squad of that size just goes in and wipes out the enemy unit just to be shot at the next turn.  If your going to run squads that big then you need to work on getting assaults into two or more enemy units at a time.

[Pbenner]

I personally like putting a DW Command Squad and a 10 man unit in at the same time.  With Belial attached to the large unit, bring down the Command Squad first, and then place the large unit to take advantage of the FNP Banner and provide a bit of cover facing the enemy.  

 

After that, it's 5 man specialized units, usually immovable object types, or shooty types if wanting to put a few squads into regular reserve.  

 

Paul

[Tanhausen]

At least in my area, we play it that you can either enter turn 1 or 2.

 

My first reading of the codex also gave me the 1 OR 2 thought...but tired of arguing just got me conceding on the point. Plus it benefits us...

 

If you play the 1 OR 2 landing, I suggest getting 3 bikers (80 points), hide them like crazy and beaconing the terminators.

 

As for deployment...sure, the oponent can castle up or spread preventing a storming assault.

 

But we also play, dont we? If we can condition the enemy's deployment, its something good and in our favour.

 

5/6 missions are about objectives...if he spreads out too much, our units are not precisely easy to dislodge from objective grabbing.

 

If they castle and we hit their mobility early on, they might find they cant go for our objective campers (5 marines) or do easy linebreakers.

 

Dont want to turn this into a DW tactica, but IMO telling somebody who's trying to develop his DW list “your terminator units are too small (5) or too big“ doesnt help much.

 

Think about it: ANYBODY who limits his tools in such an extreme way usually goes more by heart/feeling than actually hardcore competitiveness ;)

[IndigoJack]

I was unaware that there was another interpretation for DWA. From my reading, DWA is an event that happens either turn one or turn two, and you nominate which units will arrive from reserves via DWA. Now if this is a house ruling, your list isn't really helpful, since it relies so heavily on the house rule.

 

For pure DW lists, 5man is usually best to maximize scoring potential. Now if you have some points left over to beef up those units, go ahead and do it. But if with those points you can buy another DW unit, doing so will usually take you farther. Tanhausen said it, 5/6 missions are scoring. You either need to be able to score/contest at least as many objectives as your opponent, or hit them hard enough to cripple their scoring. 10man units limit the efficiency of your firing because you can't handle target saturation. 5man units are can be whittled down, but even a single terminator can score/contest. Being fearless means that regardless of casualties, you will push forward (unless you're hit with terrify, then the lack of ATSKNF can be a real pain >.<)

 

That said, the axiom "do what works for you" applies. If you're tearing your opponents up with 10man terminators, you have no real reason other than curiosity to change it. But from a pure list building stand point, 10man terminator units just aren't efficient.

[elphilo]

I guess I'm missing what Tanhausen is saying with the 1 OR 2. I thought DWA said you pick turn 1 OR 2 and all the models in DWA come down the turn you picked? Or is he saying you can piecemeal your squads in DWA on turn 1 OR 2?

[Hinti]

All designated DWA Units  Turn 1 OR 2 so no piecemeal.........as I understand the Codex.

 

@Topic:

It's personal gusto........did 10 Man Squad once (shooty)..........with less effect, they die as fast as a 5 Man Squad.....

Mine is 5 Man, as they are Standard

 

but again, it's personal gusto

[elphilo]

All designated DWA Units Turn 1 OR 2 so no piecemeal.........as I understand the Codex.

Agreed. I was just trying to figure out what Tanhausen said as I'm pretty confused by it

[Brother-Sergeant Bohemond]

I reckon around 6-7 per squad for bodies and flexibility

[Chaplain Lucifer]

I use 5 men squads. More squads and more heavy weapons. 

[[TA]Typher]

If I was to make a 1500 pts list This is what I'd do.

 

Belial 190

-Thunderhammer / SS

 

5x Deathwing Knights -235

 

5x Deathwing Command -315

2x TH/SS

Banner of Fortitude

(optionally you can delete 2 TH/SS and add a Hvy Flamer here. )

 

5x Deathwing Terms -245

1x TH/SS (Works good as a damage sponge if positioned correctly)

CML

 

5x Deathwing Terms -245

1x TH/SS (Works good as a damage sponge if positioned correctly)

CML

 

LandRaider Crusader 250

 

Total 1500

 

The BoF is really, really good for the DW. Retaining your low model count is a necessity. Look at my recent Batrep. The Banner saved at least 4 models, which is HUGE for a DW army.

 

http://www.bolterandchainsword.com/topic/275029-batrep-dw-vs-csm-w-vassalpics/

 

Deploy the Crusader on the board, with Belial and the Knights inside. Everyone else going into DWA! 1500 is kinda a tough point value for DW. you NEED a land raider, but it draws a lot of fire.

 

Vengence Strike isn't the best skill, but it's hard to pass up, so you want to place those shooty term units in DWA.

 

Belial's Tele-homer only works if he's ON the table at the beginning of the turn. having mis-scatters can lose you the game. It's nice to place Belial and his unit where you want, but losing the game because of scattering will drive you crazy. It's like choosing to win the battle or win the war. I'd rather win the war. Placing 3 units where I need them instead of placing just one makes a huge difference.

 

Taking the land raider as a heavy choice makes it a force slot allowing more units to deepstrike. It also lets you NOT take deathwing vehicle, saving you 30 points.

 

This is a pretty solid list.