Unremembered Empire

[Brother-Kezek]

My comment wasn't directed solely at your post, but at all the extrapolation going on from one cover and some ambiguous comments in stories to date. My apologies if my response was overly snarky.

 

I agree with you that the Blood Angels arriving in Ultramar after Signis Prime throws a massive spanner in what we'd understood to have happened with the Ultramarines previously. They were either too far away to beat Horus in the race to Terra or, more recently, were utterly cut off by warpstorms/the 'Ruinstorm'. As you say, the Blood Angels now being in the same place as the Ultramarines utterly changes that as they (presumably) are going to make it to Terra in plenty of time for the Siege. None of the explanations that come to mind for the subsequent discrepency between what Sanguinius and Guilliman do are at all flattering to RG. I'm hoping they come up with something plausible, because otherwise they have locked themselves into massively undermining the fluff of one of the major legions and the majority of all SM chapters. I can't see them doing that to the Ultramarines, so it will be interesting to see how they resolve that conundrum. Me smells a horrible deus ex machina coming up to untangle this.

 

And I say this as a non-UM player who just happens to like Guilliman and the Ultras role in the universe.

Guilliman also made contact with the Lion at some point. Maybe the Lion shows up, gets pissed at what Guilliman is doing and the two starts fighting over it. Sanguinius says screw both of you, I'm going to save our Father and leaves. Since the Night Lords are broken and The Lion has this new super warp machine, I can't understand why he does make it to Terra in time either.

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

The Warp isn't a logical place - perhaps Sanguinius convinces his brothers to come to Terra but their legions get caught up in the Warp Storms where the Blood Angels battle through - I'll agree that it does make all that work to keep the Dark Angels and Ultramarines away from Terra a waste.

[SirAstartes]

The Warp isn't a logical place - perhaps Sanguinius convinces his brothers to come to Terra but their legions get caught up in the Warp Storms where the Blood Angels battle through - I'll agree that it does make all that work to keep the Dark Angels and Ultramarines away from Terra a waste.

 

Well The Lion is in the novel so I can see him giving Sang his teleport Device to get back to Terra while he keeps his eye on Roboute :)

[Conn Eremon]

The Warp storms in Ultramar are meant to stop the Ultramarines. Its possible that it is actually selective and this allows others, traitors and loyalists alike, to leave with relative impunity.

[Aegnor]

The traitors getting safe passage makes sense. Sanguinius being allowed through doesn't, given how worried both Lorgar and Horus are by him.

 

As I said, it will be interesting to see how they resolve this without having Guilliman explicitly opting not to go to Terra to help protect the Emperor/bring Horus to justice. If it comes down to some kind of "a wizard, err I mean the Warp did it", that would be quite a disappointing deus ex machina.

[Conn Eremon]

I don't mean some were allowed through, I mean that it might have been targeted more directly. Others were simply outside of its scope and it was little more than an obstacle rather than a complete restriction.

[Raven Angel]

I think earlier stories have been pretty clear. Guilliman doesn't think Dorn can stop Horus. He is already planing to have to fight Horus on Terra after Horus has taken the world. Guilliman thinks the Emperor is going to die and is planing for a second Imperium with Sangunius as the new Emperor.

[SirAstartes]

The traitors getting safe passage makes sense. Sanguinius being allowed through doesn't, given how worried both Lorgar and Horus are by him.

 

As I said, it will be interesting to see how they resolve this without having Guilliman explicitly opting not to go to Terra to help protect the Emperor/bring Horus to justice. If it comes down to some kind of "a wizard, err I mean the Warp did it", that would be quite a disappointing deus ex machina.

 

Lion gives Sang his Teleport device?

[Cerbero666]

 

The traitors getting safe passage makes sense. Sanguinius being allowed through doesn't, given how worried both Lorgar and Horus are by him.

 

As I said, it will be interesting to see how they resolve this without having Guilliman explicitly opting not to go to Terra to help protect the Emperor/bring Horus to justice. If it comes down to some kind of "a wizard, err I mean the Warp did it", that would be quite a disappointing deus ex machina.

 

Lion gives Sang his Teleport device?

 

Is the obvious solution, the problem with it is that I can't imagine Lion giving the Teleport device to Sang and saying: "Here, take this and go for the glory brother...I'll stay here doing nothing while you save the day"

[SirAstartes]

 

 

The traitors getting safe passage makes sense. Sanguinius being allowed through doesn't, given how worried both Lorgar and Horus are by him.

 

As I said, it will be interesting to see how they resolve this without having Guilliman explicitly opting not to go to Terra to help protect the Emperor/bring Horus to justice. If it comes down to some kind of "a wizard, err I mean the Warp did it", that would be quite a disappointing deus ex machina.

 

Lion gives Sang his Teleport device?

 

Is the obvious solution, the problem with it is that I can't imagine Lion giving the Teleport device to Sang and saying: "Here, take this and go for the glory brother...I'll stay here doing nothing while you save the day"

 

I wouldn't say he would be doing nothing, he would be staying to watch Roboute Guilliman and this second 'empire' he has set been a talking point from the Lion.

[Cerbero666]

 

 

 

The traitors getting safe passage makes sense. Sanguinius being allowed through doesn't, given how worried both Lorgar and Horus are by him.

 

As I said, it will be interesting to see how they resolve this without having Guilliman explicitly opting not to go to Terra to help protect the Emperor/bring Horus to justice. If it comes down to some kind of "a wizard, err I mean the Warp did it", that would be quite a disappointing deus ex machina.

 

Lion gives Sang his Teleport device?

 

Is the obvious solution, the problem with it is that I can't imagine Lion giving the Teleport device to Sang and saying: "Here, take this and go for the glory brother...I'll stay here doing nothing while you save the day"

 

I wouldn't say he would be doing nothing, he would be staying to watch Roboute Guilliman and this second 'empire' he has set been a talking point from the Lion.

 

Yes but doing a watch duty while Sang goes to Terra? As much as Lion suspects on Guilliman I think he would try to reach Terra and save the Emperor, so while is clear that he gave  Sanguinius the warp device I think he still needs a better reason to stay behind. A retcon on the civil war on Caliban being before the end of the heresy? A this point (Fallen Angels) Luther has already taken control of Caliban, so maybe the news from his homeworld made him separate ways with Sang and the reinforcements. 

[SirAstartes]

 

 

 

 

The traitors getting safe passage makes sense. Sanguinius being allowed through doesn't, given how worried both Lorgar and Horus are by him.

 

As I said, it will be interesting to see how they resolve this without having Guilliman explicitly opting not to go to Terra to help protect the Emperor/bring Horus to justice. If it comes down to some kind of "a wizard, err I mean the Warp did it", that would be quite a disappointing deus ex machina.

 

Lion gives Sang his Teleport device?

 

Is the obvious solution, the problem with it is that I can't imagine Lion giving the Teleport device to Sang and saying: "Here, take this and go for the glory brother...I'll stay here doing nothing while you save the day"

 

I wouldn't say he would be doing nothing, he would be staying to watch Roboute Guilliman and this second 'empire' he has set been a talking point from the Lion.

 

Yes but doing a watch duty while Sang goes to Terra? As much as Lion suspects on Guilliman I think he would try to reach Terra and save the Emperor, so while is clear that he gave  Sanguinius the warp device I think he still needs a better reason to stay behind. A retcon on the civil war on Caliban being before the end of the heresy? A this point (Fallen Angels) Luther has already taken control of Caliban, so maybe the news from his homeworld made him separate ways with Sang and the reinforcements. 

 

IIRC he meets up with Russ and they both make their way to Terra but the Lion stops at a few systems - which causes Russ & the Lion to come to blows after they reach Terra and see they were to late, he nearly Kills Russ when they battle. After that he then goes off to Caliban to find what Luthor has become etc so I can't see him finding out before. 

[Octavulg]

IIRC he meets up with Russ and they both make their way to Terra but the Lion stops at a few systems - which causes Russ & the Lion to come to blows after they reach Terra and see they were to late, he nearly Kills Russ when they battle.

Russ stops, not the Lion. The Lion gets angry at Russ.

[Wulf Vengis]

 

 

IIRC he meets up with Russ and they both make their way to Terra but the Lion stops at a few systems - which causes Russ & the Lion to come to blows after they reach Terra and see they were to late, he nearly Kills Russ when they battle.

Russ stops, not the Lion. The Lion gets angry at Russ.

This. It was Russ stopping at every other sector along the way to help humanity that drove the lion to rage. Russ was only doing what he was supposed to be doing, namely protecting mankind.

[SirAstartes]

Thanks, I knew it was something like that :)

[Cerbero666]

 

 

 

 

 

The traitors getting safe passage makes sense. Sanguinius being allowed through doesn't, given how worried both Lorgar and Horus are by him.

 

As I said, it will be interesting to see how they resolve this without having Guilliman explicitly opting not to go to Terra to help protect the Emperor/bring Horus to justice. If it comes down to some kind of "a wizard, err I mean the Warp did it", that would be quite a disappointing deus ex machina.

 

Lion gives Sang his Teleport device?

 

Is the obvious solution, the problem with it is that I can't imagine Lion giving the Teleport device to Sang and saying: "Here, take this and go for the glory brother...I'll stay here doing nothing while you save the day"

 

I wouldn't say he would be doing nothing, he would be staying to watch Roboute Guilliman and this second 'empire' he has set been a talking point from the Lion.

 

Yes but doing a watch duty while Sang goes to Terra? As much as Lion suspects on Guilliman I think he would try to reach Terra and save the Emperor, so while is clear that he gave  Sanguinius the warp device I think he still needs a better reason to stay behind. A retcon on the civil war on Caliban being before the end of the heresy? A this point (Fallen Angels) Luther has already taken control of Caliban, so maybe the news from his homeworld made him separate ways with Sang and the reinforcements. 

 

IIRC he meets up with Russ and they both make their way to Terra but the Lion stops at a few systems - which causes Russ & the Lion to come to blows after they reach Terra and see they were to late, he nearly Kills Russ when they battle. After that he then goes off to Caliban to find what Luthor has become etc so I can't see him finding out before. 

 

Yeah that's why I said the retcon about all the civil war at Caliban, because I still can't see Lion letting down the siege of Terra if he could reach in time, It had to be an urgent problem that he needed to resolve, the one coming to my mind being the rebellion in his homeworld. 

 

BTW a Space Wolf and a Black Templar debating over the Dark Angels Primarch LOL

[Kol Saresk]

Well, I don't think the civil war will be happening early. Reasons being:

 

1.) Originally, the Lion came home not to a planet in the middle of a civil war, but a planet already seceded from the Imperium that opened fire on the Loyalist fleet without any compunction.

 

2.) According to "Fallen Angels", there has been no contact between Caliban and the outside I Legion. All of the new recruits that the Lion and all the other Dark Angels that were sent back home to train are still stationed on Caliban, meaning no one has even come to pick them up to transfer to battle groups.

 

3.) I believe it was in the novella "The Lion" that el'Jonson was talking to a Watcher and said that he knew the civil war would happen but he was going to do what he thought needed to be done to save the Emperor.

 

So I doubt that is going to be a retcon. More likely we're going to see whatever events happen that allow Sevatar and other Night Lords(including the Tenth Company) to reach Terra and, in the case of Sevatar, die there. Most likely some sort of retaliation attack led by Curze. Just because the Lion is able to coordinate warp travel to an amazing degree now, it does not mean that he won't have some sort of staging area for resupplying, repairs and maintenance. That will probably be where everything happens.

 

Also, I don't think Sanguinius is getting into Ultramar was the work of Tuchulcha. If you recall, a portion of the Imperial Fists Fleet from Phall was redirected somewhere else, possibly Ultramar.

 

And I don't think it will get him out either. Ultramar is isolated by a warp storm, but its been proven that it is possible to navigate through a warp storm. It just isn't smart or particularly healthy. Lorgar just knows the "safe routes" through the Ruinstorm. It doesn't mean that Sanguinius can't find then or just break through. The question is why didn't Guilliman do the same?

[Octavulg]

Russ was only doing what he was supposed to be doing, namely protecting mankind.

Yeah. When the greatest threat humanity has ever faced is battering down the gates of Terra, it's important to make sure that the feral world of Buttfornication is secure from the clutches of its enemies.

[Cerbero666]

Well, I don't think the civil war will be happening early. Reasons being:

 

1.) Originally, the Lion came home not to a planet in the middle of a civil war, but a planet already seceded from the Imperium that opened fire on the Loyalist fleet without any compunction.

 

2.) According to "Fallen Angels", there has been no contact between Caliban and the outside I Legion. All of the new recruits that the Lion and all the other Dark Angels that were sent back home to train are still stationed on Caliban, meaning no one has even come to pick them up to transfer to battle groups.

 

3.) I believe it was in the novella "The Lion" that el'Jonson was talking to a Watcher and said that he knew the civil war would happen but he was going to do what he thought needed to be done to save the Emperor.

 

So I doubt that is going to be a retcon. More likely we're going to see whatever events happen that allow Sevatar and other Night Lords(including the Tenth Company) to reach Terra and, in the case of Sevatar, die there. Most likely some sort of retaliation attack led by Curze. Just because the Lion is able to coordinate warp travel to an amazing degree now, it does not mean that he won't have some sort of staging area for resupplying, repairs and maintenance. That will probably be where everything happens.

 

Also, I don't think Sanguinius is getting into Ultramar was the work of Tuchulcha. If you recall, a portion of the Imperial Fists Fleet from Phall was redirected somewhere else, possibly Ultramar.

 

And I don't think it will get him out either. Ultramar is isolated by a warp storm, but its been proven that it is possible to navigate through a warp storm. It just isn't smart or particularly healthy. Lorgar just knows the "safe routes" through the Ruinstorm. It doesn't mean that Sanguinius can't find then or just break through. The question is why didn't Guilliman do the same?

 

Good Point, I forgot some important things. Respecting Guilliman I think is an easy answer, he wanted to secure Imperium Secundus in case that Sang, Dorn, etc.. failed in the defense of Terra, the plan B. Unremembered Empire will be about the tactical divisions of the Primarchs in the galaxy, if they all ran for Terra they would lost the rest of the game. 

[Aegnor]

Yeah, but Terra was the crucial battle. They could've always reconquered the galaxy, they can't replace the Emperor.

[Stonerhino]

Does not mean that Russ didn't believe the Emperor could lose.

[Wade Garrett]

My personal opinion is that Sanguinus will break out by punching the Ruinstorm until it gives up and lets the Blood Angels to Terra.

 

Given that according to Phalanx Dorn punched a warp rift closed this is a surprisingly plausible option.

[Arachnid99]

I've begun to think the way they'll deal with Sang in Ultramar issue without trashing a Primach is to have Guilliman and Sanguinius disagree. Guilliman says fighting through the Ruinstorm is going to cost you half your Legion and you're probably going to be too late anyway, it's a pointless sacrifice that undermines the Loyalists ability to continue the War. Sang says so what, Daddy needs me and if most of my sons have to die so I can stand beside him so be it. Sanguinius is established as loyal and dutiful and willing to sacrifice anything to stand beside Big E. Guilliman is shown taking the big picture strategic view and preserving his forces. Both justifiable responses to the situation and the fandom rejoices.  

[Kol Saresk]

I don't know if this has been noticed or not, but if you look at the full picture from the BL blog from way back in December, all the way to the left is a little knot of people in white armor. Now, these could be Sanguinary Priests but for some reason they strike me as White Scars. Has anyone else noticed them or picked up that vibe? If they are White Scars, how the blazes did they get in Ultramar?



The pic for immediate viewing:http://www.blacklibrary.com/Images/BL/blog/2012/12/unremembered-empire-large.jpg

[MadDoc]

Of the two in White armour the guy on the right (the one facing left) in the pic appears to have a tulwar sheathed at his waist which suggests White Scar to me as well.

Also, is it just me or do the guys to the right of him look as though they could be Iron Hands? Or possibly even some of Malcador's Knights Errant?