The Emperor and Dune

[003998]

I´d like to share with you some thoughts on the background of 40k, the Horus Heresy and specifically the image of the Emperor of Mankind that have been floating around my head for a long time and on which I´d be rather interested to read your opinions. Apologies in advance as this may get a little lengthy.

I believe that the background of 40k has taken some very powerful ideas and themes from Frank Herbert´s iconic series of novels, Dune. Allow me to list a few examples:
Navigators – Navigators exist both in the 40k-universe and in the Duniverse. In both cases, they are human mutants and their respective societies are utterly reliant on their unique talent. This, in turn gives them tremendous political weight. The ideas are almost the same in both universes.

Power is longevity – In Dune, the spice mélange has live prolonging effects. As the spice is also the most sought-after substance in the universe, its availability is directly linked to one´s personal power. In the course of the series, more methods of achieving longevity are introduced, including continuous reincarnation as a clone (ghola), mystic powers (Bene Gesserit) or symbiosis with an alien life-form. The most drastic example is Leto Atreides II., who lives to the age of 3,500 years. No co-incidence, he is also the grand ruler of all of humanity, but more on him later. In 40k not only is the rejuvenat treatment only available to the wealthy and powerful, but consider the life expectations of Astartes, Custodians,  Primarchs, and, of course, the Emperor himself.
The extended lifespan of the characters also has a direct impact on the story arcs that achieve a sense of awe by spanning not years or decades, but centuries and millennia, a common theme in both universes.
 

Rejection of artificial intelligences and focus on human powers – In Dune, there is one event before the continuity of the novels, called Butler´s Jihad, that is never explored in detail, but from which a proscription of the use of thinking machines is derived. This is again a glaring parallel to 40k´s Dark Age of Technology and Age of Strife. In both universes, the ban on artificial intelligences has the effect of centering the story-telling on humans instead of machines and finding human solutions to problems that one would -with sufficiently high-developed technology- normally expect to be solved by computers, robots, and the like. In Dune, there are mentats (human computers), navigators (mentioned above), and a whole faction (Bene Tleilax) that specialize in providing bio-engineered tools for almost any task. A similar theme is followed in 40k, so that we have servitors instead of robots, brains in jars instead of huge computers, crew loading advanced torpedoes on starships, and so on. Furthermore, humanity´s most powerful weapons are made out to be not its mighty starfleets, nor its mechanical Titans, but the bio-engineered warriors created by the Emperor (although this is a bit hard to swallow from a “realistic” point of view).

 

 

There are more, but I think you get my drift. Of course, there are also a thousand of differences, but some of the ideas and themes are so strong that I feel confident in believing that the creators of 40k were influenced by Dune when writing the background. Also, I believe this applies for many of the Black Library authors writing the Horus Heresy (Graham McNeil is my main suspect here after The Outcast Dead – I believe he even used the famous Dune quote about “feints within feints”).
Why am I telling you all this (if you really bothered to read this far)? I think the most obvious parallel between the two universes is that of the Emperor of Mankind and the God-Emperor of Dune. One of the most controversial novels in the Dune series is God Emperor of Dune, a book about three-and-a-half millennia old Leto II., who has gone into symbiosis with the so-called sandtrout and is slowly turning into a giant sandworm. Due to his symbiosis and long live, Leto has tremendous powers of prescience, near-invulnerability against almost all kinds of physical harm, and commands an army of fanatical and unmatched warriors that revere him with religious zeal. Through his powers, shrewd politics, and overwhelming military might, he has become the supreme leader of humanity and object of veneration for the masses, allowing certain factions to still exist and operate in his empire, but essentially ruling with an iron fist and employing whatever means necessary to achieve his ends. Sound familiar? Pretty much our beloved Emperor of Mankind  on Earth, if you ask me.

However, there is a catch. Leto II. hates it all. His long live is one of separation from humanity and almost infinite loneliness. He perpetrates acts that he despises, or at least does not enjoy, he is hated by many for his tyrannical reign, he actually longs for relief from his live, but will not have it unless he is certain that he has led humanity on the path to survival. If he had not assumed the reign of humanity, they would have long gone extinct. He has therefore taken upon him a selfless and almost unimaginable sacrifice, that has him called tyrant and heartless to top it all off.

Similar topics have been touched upon in the Horus Heresy. I believe it is in the Last Church where the Emperor tells the priest that without his guidance, humanity would be doomed to die as it almost did in the Age of Strife. Somewhere else (I need to start taking notes, any help would be appreciated), he argues that many have not understood how much the Great Crusade is a war for species survival, and how he needs  to achieve certain goals before an as-yet-unexplained deadline is reached. Actually, in very old lore, it is mentioned that the Emperor´s prescience is failing just as he is about to board Horus´s battle barge, which could very well be the abovementioned deadline
Therefore, I propose that many things about the Emperor´s actions can be understood if one assumes that he is desperately trying to prevent the extinction of the human race and that all other considerations of compassion, honor, love are secondary to this. During the Great Crusade, he realizes the far horizon on his prescience, and he does everything he can to get the stuff done that must be done for mankind to survive before he reaches that horizon.

Why does he reprimand Lorgar for being slow, even though it will most certainly hurt him gravely? Because Lorgar has to speed up, because time is of the essence.

Why does he teleport Angron from his chosen battlefield even though it alienates him and why does he place the damaged primarch in command of an entire legion? Because he does not have time for another solution, and because even though Angron is a damaged tool, he is still a tool that the Emperor crucially needs to achieve his goals.

Why does he retreat to his dungeon on Earth, depriving his sons and his Great Crusade of his presence and guidance? Because he does not have time to see it all through to its conclusion. He needs to find an alternative to warp travel to ensure mankind´s continued survival without the constant threat of Chaos before his time runs out.

And why does he allow himself to be interred in the Golden Throne, suffering for eternity (as described rather colorfully in The Outcast Dead)? Because he alone is willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for the sake of the species. A sacrifice that most ordinary men would not even be able to comprehend.

Now, I assume I will be proven wrong in at least some of the points above, but nevertheless, I think one can get some quite valid ideas about the 40k- and Horus Heresy- background from Dune. Wonder what you think.

 

[depthcharge12]

How about Duncan Idaho? Do you see any relations between him and the 30k universe? He dies defending house atriedes and is Paul's best friend and protector but is warped through his reincarnation as a ghola.

 

Or what about Paul's sister? She is destined to become a horrible thing and has no control. Sound like Angron a little bit?

 

Or what about the bene gesserit? They foresee Paul as being a modern messiah who has unimaginable mental prescience, but he rebels against their purposes for him. Sounds like the emperor vs. the reincarnation as star child with the inquisition fighting over what to do with the emperor.

 

Or how bout the bene gesserit ability to merge minds? Sound familiar does it?

 

Ha I just want to mention that I'm 19 and involved with dune even though it's older than a bunch of stuff. Thanks dad for the sci fi brainwashing ;)

[berzerkermike84]

the people who made warhammer40k  borrowed and just plainly rip-off others work. not too long ago they tried to patient the word "space marine". those words has been around long before GW was  even a thought. 

[depthcharge12]

I think it's quite funny with the usage of the GOD EMPEROR OF MANKIND, but hey let's not turn this into a GW ripped off a bunch of works especially something as well entrenched as Dune thread. There are plenty out there ;)

[depthcharge12]

Oh crap what was the name of the fremen chieftain?

 

He reminds me of Constantin Valdor and babysitting the kids of the emperor Paul.

[Marshal Traben]

It was Stilgar, if i remember right.

[Kol Saresk]

Actually they didn't patent the word Space Marine. It was a copyright infringement over the fact that the author's in-question space marines shared some similarities(such as genetic enhancements) with GW's version. I'm not sure how that turned out because the discussion turned into a troll thread warning of the threats of big evil, corporate entities.

 

People complained about the relations between Starcraft and 40k, problem was 40k was first and starcraft was apparently meant to be 40k but something happened and we all know where it went from there.

 

Also, there is actually a trilogy devoted to the Butlerian Jihad.

 

However, being alienated to AI and finding different ways of immortality and all of the above concepts can be found throughout the science fiction. Just because they are common doesn't mean they are rip-offs, otherwise everything would be facing copyright infringement.

 

Now, here's the golden question. Which came first, Dune or 40k?

 

EDIT: The other kicker is this. If we're going into a GW rip-off thread, are we also going to hit David Weber an all the other sci-fi writers who do what all other writers do: take an idea and make it their own?

[Apothecary Vaddon]

Actually they didn't patent the word Space Marine. It was a copyright infringement over the fact that the author's in-question space marines shared some similarities(such as genetic enhancements) with GW's version. I'm not sure how that turned out because the discussion turned into a troll thread warning of the threats of big evil, corporate entities.

 

People complained about the relations between Starcraft and 40k, problem was 40k was first and starcraft was apparently meant to be 40k but something happened and we all know where it went from there.

 

Also, there is actually a trilogy devoted to the Butlerian Jihad.

 

However, being alienated to AI and finding different ways of immortality and all of the above concepts can be found throughout the science fiction. Just because they are common doesn't mean they are rip-offs, otherwise everything would be facing copyright infringement.

 

Now, here's the golden question. Which came first, Dune or 40k?

 

EDIT: The other kicker is this. If we're going into a GW rip-off thread, are we also going to hit David Weber an all the other sci-fi writers who do what all other writers do: take an idea and make it their own?

GW's case got thrown out

[Kol Saresk]

Yeah I looked it up and saw that. It wasn't thrown out so much as Amazon said screw it and GW simply hasn't done anything since.

[A D-B]

 

Actually they didn't patent the word Space Marine. It was a copyright infringement over the fact that the author's in-question space marines shared some similarities(such as genetic enhancements) with GW's version. I'm not sure how that turned out because the discussion turned into a troll thread warning of the threats of big evil, corporate entities.

 

People complained about the relations between Starcraft and 40k, problem was 40k was first and starcraft was apparently meant to be 40k but something happened and we all know where it went from there.

 

Also, there is actually a trilogy devoted to the Butlerian Jihad.

 

However, being alienated to AI and finding different ways of immortality and all of the above concepts can be found throughout the science fiction. Just because they are common doesn't mean they are rip-offs, otherwise everything would be facing copyright infringement.

 

Now, here's the golden question. Which came first, Dune or 40k?

 

EDIT: The other kicker is this. If we're going into a GW rip-off thread, are we also going to hit David Weber an all the other sci-fi writers who do what all other writers do: take an idea and make it their own?

GW's case got thrown out

 

Nope. There was no "case" to be thrown out. And it was a C&D letter in defence of a trademark, not a copyright or patent issue, which is a critical difference in terms of legality and precedent for future legal proceedings. There was nothing to throw out.

 

Submitted without comment except the plain facts, because I'm so, so, so bored of this coming up in a gush of misinformation every five minutes.

[Kol Saresk]

Ah, thanks for clearing that up.

[Raven Angel]

I looked at the book in question. Spot isn't even human. GW has no case. Some lawyer jumped the gun and didn't even do the 10 min of homework needed to see if it was infringement.

[A D-B]

I looked at the book in question. Spot isn't even human. GW has no case. Some lawyer jumped the gun and didn't even do the 10 min of homework needed to see if it was infringement.

 

That's not how trademarks work. And at no point did I say GW have a "case". GW didn't even say they had one. It was a C&D letter, and... actually, I'm not getting into it yet again, sorry, dude. I'm just desperate for people to at least have a vague grasp of what they're talking about if they're going to keep bringing it up.

 

Please don't leap to a brief, factual explanation as anything else. I wasn't defending GW, or attacking them. Just explaining that for people who deal with this stuff, it's a lot more intricate than "GW has no case", and had nothing to do with cases, copyrights, or patents. 

 

That's all.

[Sgt.Sangha]

medicine has me so entwined at the moment that I have very little knowledge of this trade mark issue, but I have seen A-D-B post about it a few times, do I now need to look this up? 

[ChaosLord Leon Enaek]

Didn't a thread about this kind of legal stuff just get locked in AA? I don't think that it should spill over into this thread and risk getting it locked too - people have said what they have to say on the issue.

 

On topic: Never read too much of the Dune stuff but the parallels that you draw are certainly very interesting and might make for some interesting home brew fluff :D

Also, Dune is pre-GW. According to Wikipedia.

[Demus Ragnok]

Everything in fiction is borrowed...from something...somewhere... that existed previously. There are no "new" stories in the human realm. We repeat the same tales over again, only the names have changed. So finding parallels in fiction is easy.

 

I read about 40k and I see...Christianity, mythology, spiritualism, humanism and several other isms. But those are my main fields of academic endeavor, with psychology for flavor.

 

40k and 30k are about humans, written by humans, and that is why things always jump out as familiar or similar. Because they are.

[Wade Garrett]

My opinions on Dune and Warhammer 40,000?

 

Our God Emperor can beat up their God Emperor.

 

http://fc08.deviantart.net/fs70/f/2011/230/8/a/gloria_atomicae_by_larbesta-d46yf6a.jpg

[Legionator]

So, you see his fabulous glory but still insist on heresy? Repent and come to the enlightened path Wade!

[Wade Garrett]

So, you see his fabulous glory but still insist on heresy? Repent and come to the enlightened path Wade!

 

Oh, don't misunderstand me...he's still a deluded tyrant in gilded armor who made the mistake of thinking he could defy the True Powers of the Galaxy.

 

But he's OUR deluded tyrant in gilded armor, dangit! And better than some twit who is slowly mutating into a xenos beast and who only gained power because of who his father was.

[Legionator]

Just imagine a tremendous hive fleet invades Terra and traitor marines come to Imperium's aid because the Emperor is their tyrant.

[Ordo Machinum]

Dunehammer 40K!

 

Now there's a cool modeling idea! I will put it on my "to do" list, right after my comic book marines and (possibly) before my alienids and predatau.

 

Yeah, Dune is one of the silver age classics (1965). I'm not sure about the author's son's works in his father's realm, even if he did have access to any original notes.

 

A lot could be easily fit into the standard 40k 'verse, even scaled down for a DIY chapter's history. The whole warp/spice thing smacks of being a gene cult & chaos plot twisting some poor sector away from the divine Emperor's light!

[003998]

Well, I´m glad we got back on topic. I did not mean to imply that GW "ripped off" anyone. I agree with Demus Ragnuk´s point that most ideas in fiction, especially those dealing with humans and humanity, have very deep roots. Just one more reason to read some of the "classics". I do, however believe, that there are a few ideas that were actually pioneered by Dune and that are taken up in 40k. This does not mean that there is an analogue for anything in Dune. Take, for example, Duncan Idaho, who essentially serves as a kind of straight man and identification figure in Dune. He is not remotely original, but rather an archetype that exists in almost every knight´s tale. There´s no analogue I can think of in the 40k background. But I believe that one of the crucial ideas of the Horus Heresy, namely the Emperor of Mankind, is taking much inspiration from Leto II. And as there is a whole (rather lengthy) novel dedicated to exploring the thoughts and intentions of Leto, it may prove valuable to have a look at Leto in order to make some sense of the Emperor of Mankind. After all, questioning the Big E´s motiviation and intentions is a recurring topic on this board.

[Knight of the Raven]

The 40,000 universe is big and diverse enough for Arrakis to actually exist somewhere in the galaxy.
 

Dunehammer 40K! 

Hello.

(No, these aren't mine.)

I've always wanted Sardaukar models.

[depthcharge12]

Aren't the night lords alike to the sardaukar? I believe the sardaukar are criminals and live on a death world so that they are really hardened and then hired by Emperor as a personal army/ body gaurd.

 

 

Leto is just so manly that he just waits long enough for sand trouts (let's just use rippers for a second) to come onto him then he turns into a trygon. Pokemon like effect wher he evolves ;)

[003998]

The 40,000 universe is big and diverse enough for Arrakis to actually exist somewhere in the galaxy.

 

Dunehammer 40K! 

Hello.

 

(No, these aren't mine.)

 

I've always wanted Sardaukar models.

Wow, those are looking really impressive. The Sardaukar remind me much of the Lynch-movie, the visuals of which sometimes did not square up very well with the descriptions in the novels, but the stillsuits on the Fremen are really amazing. I wish Tallarns had a look like this, so one could field an entire Imperial Guard Army with models like this.

 

Aren't the night lords alike to the sardaukar? I believe the sardaukar are criminals and live on a death world so that they are really hardened and then hired by Emperor as a personal army/ body gaurd.

Interesting idea. One can definitely see some connections.