Space Marine Chapters and Their Workings

[XKhalilX]

agreed, its likely that 1100-1200 is the more rational number. or the scout company has alot of full grown astartes waiting to be next in line for a suit of power armour.

 

there must be a sizeable "constant ready" replacements otherwise a chapter would die off fairly easily.

 

perhaps some of the chapterhouse astartes are ones who have "retired" as it were, or act as temps, recovering and resting from battle and doing "house work." I can't imagine an astartes willingly wishing to retire from the field of battle or wanting to work around the chapterhouse voluntarily in replacement of battle.

[Octavulg]

Why would you need to have a bunch of extra Marines lying around, exactly?

 

20 new Marines-odd per year means a Chapter needs to maintain a casualty rate of about 2%. The Marines at First Fallujah had a 6% casualty rate (a 1.2% death rate). At Second Fallujah, it was 5% casualties (0.9% death). Now, admittedly, those were week-long battles. But Space Marines spend hefty chunks of their time in transit and are really, really, really hard to kill. A 2% death rate over the course of a year isn't actually that unlikely (hell, so long as they only actually fight two or three weeks out of a year, it's highly plausible). And Marine chapters that take heavy losses have been known to expand their Scout companies. No reserves necessary.

 

EDIT: MATH TO THE RESCUE!

 

The chapter replaces its men at 2% per year. If one day of normal fighting kills X% of the chapter, then the chapter can spend Y amount of time (in days) in combat each year under normal conditions (XY=(0.02/365), or XY = 0.0000548).

 

Rate of replacement per day equals 0.02/365 = 0.0000548 (or about one Marine every eighteen days).

The rate of loss (X) by the percentage of time spent in combat (Y) must equal the rate of replacement per day. XY=0.0000548. When rate of loss (X) equals 0.0000548, the chapter may spend 100% of its time in combat (Y=1).

So. Let Y = 0.25, 0.50 and 0.75 (and I think the first two numbers are more likely - space travel takes a loooooooong time, even if Marines can end up deployed for months or years).

When Y = 0.25, X = 0.000219 (one Marine for every 4.57 days in combat).

When Y = 0.50, X = 0.000110 (one Marine for every 9.09 days in combat).

When Y = 0.75, X = 0.0000731 (one Marine for every 13.7 days in combat).

If the Marines had the casualty rate of a modern military (X = 0.01/52, or 0.0001923) they could spend 28.5% of their time in combat (Y = 0.285). They'd lose a marine about every 5.2 days.

 

Personally, I think losing a Marine every five days the whole chapter is in combat makes a reasonable amount of sense (it sounds implausible, but the modern military seems to manage it, and that's DEAD, not just incapacitated).

[XKhalilX]

recall the modern military is 100,000+ and dont need to spend years growing them into superhuman status.

 

sorry octavulg but the math wont add up when you forget those much needed factors of the time it takes to grow a brand new astartes to replace a dead one, and the fact that losing 1 out of 1,000 is definitely a higher % loss then losing 1 out of 100,000

[Octavulg]

recall the modern military is 100,000+

Which is irrelevant.

and dont need to spend years growing them into superhuman status.

Which has been accounted for in the math. The Scout Company is one hundred strong. It takes about five years to run through all the organs. Twenty new guys per year.

sorry octavulg but the math wont add up when you forget those much needed factors of the time it takes to grow a brand new astartes to replace a dead one,

You mean the thing that I already accounted for?

and the fact that losing 1 out of 1,000 is definitely a higher % loss then losing 1 out of 100,000

True. Please explain what that has to do with anything.

[Mogsam]

Your maths makes no sense. Your compairing modern military to space men. Somehow if 40k were real I imagine space bugs by the hundreds of thousands which tear power armoured people in half will cause more casualties than poorly trained Iraqi militias. Similarly it makes a massive difference if there's 100,000 compared to 1000.

 

It doesn't matter how tough they are if they're at constant war.

 

Anyway, they have to have large reserve pools or they'd spend 20 years waiting to fight again.

[Malthe]

Math always makes sense - if you accept the given constants and variables.

Octa bases his math on the idea that since Space Marines are 'better' than the USMC they would take fewer or as few casualties as the USMC does. He further elaborates that if this is true they would have no problem with handling their cassualties.

 

Some would postulate that a 2% cassualty rate is very low for Space Marines - seeing as how they tend to die in droves in every book ever published by GW and the Black Library... However it might be that they just don't bother writing about all the times when the all mighty Space Marines absolutly slaughter their opponents. Also a lot of marines are centuries old, signifying a low cassualty rate.

Truth is; we don't know and we won't know.

 

However it remains a fact that since a chapter is so small (compared to modern military) it is very vulnerable to cassualties.

However (final one - I swear!) since Space Marines only ever seem concerned about loosing the gene-seed implanted in each and every battle-brother we must assume that they have some way of easily replenishing their losses - most likely by 'growing' new marines - signifying that their recruitment and training regime is alot more efficient that Octa's math indicates.

 

Sorry about rambling and the typing errors :)

[exetus]

I actually highly doubt that most chapters actually keep anywhere close to 100% combat capability... between campaigns, transit, losses in recruitment and the like, degenerate geneseed, etc. you get chapters like the Marines Malevolent, Flesh Tearers and Charcharadon Astra.  When planning, however, you create your plans for 100% and then modify as required.  If I'm figuring out how to lay out my Chapter, I'm going to factor in 100% combat effectiveness and also 100% support effectiveness which is why the "planing" numbers would exceed 1,000 battle brothers (although I don't know how many sources, since it's so many, say that 1,000 is an estimate).

 

That said, Octa's math still works... you just factor in that Space Marines are always training but not always at war (depending upon their roles within the Imperium).  If you are looking at a 2% rate of loss (reasonable in most cases aside from the all-out conflicts since there is precedent for single marines or squads being deployed to turn the tide) and they are constantly training recruits, you'd not be replacing your losses with the guys you just picked up, but the ones you snagged 5 years ago and are ready.

 

I'm not sure that the turnaround is only 20 marines per year and likely varies with every Chapter... with places like Ultramar, it's likely disproportionately higher because the whole realm of Ultramar has facilities to discover and train new recruits.  Once again, that's a one-off, but with Chapters that recruit from systems with high populations, you're always likely to have a higher number of suitable candidates... not percentage, but actual numbers.

 

 

And Octa, I'm not disputing that Logisticiam is the department's name but, by default, that also is his role... he's listed as the Keeper of the Gates so, by reasoning, the Keeper of the Gates is the head of the Logisticiam - my apologies for making that his title, but it doesn't change his role.  And since you mentioned that you think he's likely the steward of the chapter monastery, well... lets define a steward:

 

 

 

From Dictionary.com

 

1.

a person who manages another's property or financial affairs; one who administers anything as theagent of another or others.

2.

a person who has charge of the household of another, buying or obtaining food, directing theservants, etc.

3.

an employee who has charge of the table, wine, servants, etc., in a club, restaurant, or the like.

4.

a person who attends to the domestic concerns of persons on board a vessel, as in overseeing maidsand waiters.

5.

an employee on a ship, train, or bus who waits on and is responsible for the comfort of passengers,takes orders for or distributes food, etc.

 

 

Sorry it took a while to respond... had to pull staff duty.

[Gripharius]

I think the debate about the numbers and the math might be a bit pointless. The only idea that I thought we were really getting at was that a Chapter probably has a handful of non-combatant Space Marines, and the Inquisition probably won't go all Excommunicatus Tratorius on a Chapter if they do a head count and happen to have 1003 Marines. Which would never really happen anyway because the Chapters are almost never all together in one place and the total number of Space Marines in any given Chapter probably fluctuates quite regularly.

[Leonaides]

 

since Space Marines only ever seem concerned about loosing the gene-seed implanted in each and every battle-brother we must assume that they have some way of easily replenishing their losses - most likely by 'growing' new marines - signifying that their recruitment and training regime is a lot more efficient that Octa's math indicates.

Err - no. Each and every KIA is a grevious loss to the chapter, but given time as long as the geneseed is recovered then that loss can be replaced. There is absolutely no easy way of replacing losses for marines - a casualty rate of 25% or more in the scout companies is probably not unlikely (given various BL and GW codex publication sources). So thats 1 in every 4 geneseed sets will never make it to maturity to allow you to implant into another new recruit. Given that not every marine has viable geneseed after death (due to battle damage or contamination) and that they may have to give away as much as 10% of their geneseed stock to the Ad Mech when it comes to tithing time, the recovery of any geneseed at all is a priority for all marine chapters.

[TrashMan]

Erm...

 

It takes 55 years to create a set of 1000 organs starting with 1.

Each 4-5 years the number doubles and 2 are implanted into one individual.

 

So 1000 space marines means 2000 organs every 4-5 years, with 1000 being re-used.

 

With a number of 18 organs per marine, that means in 4-5 years you have enough left over gene-seed for 55,5 marines.

 

 

11 marines per year loss is acceptable.

 

That is, if you are only using marines to grow gene-seed. IF you are using chapter serfs, which can number in 10 or hunderds of thousand, you have 100 times more gene-seed to work with.

[exetus]

 

So 1000 space marines means 2000 organs every 4-5 years, with 1000 being re-used.

 

With a number of 18 organs per marine, that means in 4-5 years you have enough left over gene-seed for 55,5 marines. 

 

This is an incorrect statement.  The only geneseed implant that requires maturity and harvesting from the Space Marine is the Progenoid Gland (which is what we are talking about).  Each progenoid gland carries the genetic material for each of the 19 implants.  When aspirants begin to undergo the transformation into Space Marines, the genetic material from a single mature Progenoid gland is used to cultivate the 19 organs that will go into the aspirant's body.

 

A thousand Space Marines = 2,000 progenoid glands which, theoretically, means that you can create (from uncorrupted progenoids) 2 marines for every one that dies.  Five percent, of course, goes to the Adeptus  Mechanicus as their tithe for purity tests and storage in facilities like the one on Mars or Hydra Cordatus.  With genetic corruption, destruction of the body or inability to recover the progenoids, you never get a full return of progenoids.

[Octavulg]

Mogsam

Your maths makes no sense. Your compairing modern military to space men. Somehow if 40k were real I imagine space bugs by the hundreds of thousands which tear power armoured people in half will cause more casualties than poorly trained Iraqi militias.

Except Marines don't spend all their time fighting Nids. They spend a lot of it fighting cultists, or PDF, or pirates. Or Orks. Plus, since the Nids are noted to have devastated several chapters, it would suggest they're unusually dangerous.

 

I'm pretty sure that most people here would have pegged the death rate in modern combat as a lot higher than it is. So I'm using it as a basis for comparison because it's a lot better than random guesses or percentages assembled from an author's desire to make things more dramatic.

Similarly it makes a massive difference if there's 100,000 compared to 1000.

How? It's not like the full hundred thousand gets deployed all at once.

It doesn't matter how tough they are if they're at constant war.

Except, as I pointed out, Marines likely aren't at constant war. Travel time, etc. And even if they were engaged every day for a year, if they are a certain level of tough (such that in constant warfare they have one marine killed every twenty days or so), it's OK. The Scout Company can handle it.

Anyway, they have to have large reserve pools or they'd spend 20 years waiting to fight again.

No. I've got math. You've got "Nunh-unh!" Try again.

 

* * *

 

Malthe

However (final one - I swear!) since Space Marines only ever seem concerned about loosing the gene-seed implanted in each and every battle-brother we must assume that they have some way of easily replenishing their losses - most likely by 'growing' new marines - signifying that their recruitment and training regime is alot more efficient that Octa's math indicates.

We KNOW how many Marines they normally produce (or, at least, can determine it). The earliest age you can begin implantation is ten. The latest is twelve (or possibly fourteen or thirteen, if you want to ignore a few numbers). The earliest you can finish is sixteen, the latest is eighteen. So the process is going to take between four and eight years. Likely closer to five, since no sensible chapter is going to prolong it more than necessary. That'd give you twenty Marines per year (as above).

 

But they may not join the Scout Company right away. C:SM 3e covers the recruitment process in depth. It says they join the Scout Company once the progenoid is implanted (p 45). The "initial term" in the Scout company results in the implantation of the Black Carapace - whether they do more Scout Company after that or not is somewhat unclear. This does change the numbers somewhat - progenoids go in between 16-18, and so does the Black Carapace. So that's a maximum of two years. Probably a year (C:SM 5e says "many months", but I'd want at least a year's experience before I gave somebody power armour, personally).

 

That'd give you a hundred Marines every year, which is a lot (if you're losing a hundred Marines out of nine hundred every year, you're going to see complete turnover pretty quickly, which kind of contradicts the whole "centuries of experience" angle). A year and a half would be 67 Marines per year, which seems like a more reasonable number.

 

So you'll get somewhere between twenty and a hundred Marines per year. Though even twenty is manageable.

[TrashMan]

 

 

So 1000 space marines means 2000 organs every 4-5 years, with 1000 being re-used.

 

With a number of 18 organs per marine, that means in 4-5 years you have enough left over gene-seed for 55,5 marines. 

 

This is an incorrect statement.  The only geneseed implant that requires maturity and harvesting from the Space Marine is the Progenoid Gland (which is what we are talking about).  Each progenoid gland carries the genetic material for each of the 19 implants.  When aspirants begin to undergo the transformation into Space Marines, the genetic material from a single mature Progenoid gland is used to cultivate the 19 organs that will go into the aspirant's body.

 

A thousand Space Marines = 2,000 progenoid glands which, theoretically, means that you can create (from uncorrupted progenoids) 2 marines for every one that dies.  Five percent, of course, goes to the Adeptus  Mechanicus as their tithe for purity tests and storage in facilities like the one on Mars or Hydra Cordatus.  With genetic corruption, destruction of the body or inability to recover the progenoids, you never get a full return of progenoids.

 

I stand corrected then. The SM creatio nfluff threw me the wrong way, as the AdMech technique on slaves mentions doubling. This has left me with the impression that progenoid doesn't produce 19 organs, but only one.

 

2000 progenoid glands means 40000 organs every 5 years (or was it 10?)

 

If we account for rejection or any problem, that leaves us with easily doubling the number of space marines each cycle. At that rate, how can space marine chapters face extinction?

 

Just ONE space marine survivors with both progenoids intact can be enough to re-start the entire chapter.

 

1st cycle, 1 marine and you get 18 gene-seed (actually 36, but lets assume only one progenoid survived)

 

2nd cycle 9 poeple implanted (2 each) and you get 9*2*18 =324 gene seed

 

3rd cycle 162 people implanted (2 each), you get 162+2+18= 5820 gene seed!

 

4th cycle you can implant 2916 people!!! That nets you over 100000 gene seed/organs!

 

In just 4 cycles!!!!

 

That can't be right.

[ShadowSong7007]

I thought one of the glands could be harvested while the marine was still alive while the other can only be harvested after death. I can't remember where I read that from.

[exetus]

I thought one of the glands could be harvested while the marine was still alive while the other can only be harvested after death. I can't remember where I read that from.

 

No... the one in the neck matures after 5 years and can be removed then.  The one in the chest matures after 10 years and can be removed at that point.  This rarely happens, however.

 

 

 

 

I stand corrected then. The SM creatio nfluff threw me the wrong way, as the AdMech technique on slaves mentions doubling. This has left me with the impression that progenoid doesn't produce 19 organs, but only one.

 

2000 progenoid glands means 40000 organs every 5 years (or was it 10?)

 

If we account for rejection or any problem, that leaves us with easily doubling the number of space marines each cycle. At that rate, how can space marine chapters face extinction?

 

Just ONE space marine survivors with both progenoids intact can be enough to re-start the entire chapter.

 

1st cycle, 1 marine and you get 18 gene-seed (actually 36, but lets assume only one progenoid survived)

 

2nd cycle 9 poeple implanted (2 each) and you get 9*2*18 =324 gene seed

 

3rd cycle 162 people implanted (2 each), you get 162+2+18= 5820 gene seed!

 

4th cycle you can implant 2916 people!!! That nets you over 100000 gene seed/organs!

 

In just 4 cycles!!!!

 

That can't be right.

 

It's not, because your theory is wrong, not your math.  Here is where you are making the mistake:

 

You think that 1 Progenoid Gland yields 19 more Progenoid Glands.

 

What's really the case is that 1 Progenoid Gland yields the genetic material (stem cells and such) to create the 19 implants for a new Space Marine.  When they go about making a new Space Marine, they take his genetic material and a single Progenoid to cultivate biologically compatible implant organs such as the Catelepsan Node, Betchers Gland, Preomenor, Larraman's Gland, etc.  Additionally, some of that genetic material is inserted directly into the bloodstream which enables the massive bone and muscle growth and fusion of the rib cage into a solid plate.  

 

One Progenoid Gland = 1 full Space Marine so long as everything goes according to plan and the aspirant doesn't reject the changes to his body.  That brand new Space Marine will have 2 immature Progenoid Glands that COULD yield two more Space Marines.

[TrashMan]

Which stil doesn't explain why they don't just farm progenoids from non-marines like chapter serfs. Problem solved.

 

Probably a honor thing, but then again, the original set was cultivated in criminals/slaves.

 

 

 

And technicly, am I wrong?

 

1 progenoid gland yields materals for all organs of a new marine. INCLUDING progenoids. Where does he get them from otherwise?

 

You think that all the material will be immediately used to create organs for more space marines, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talkign about using it ONLY for more progenoids. Farming.

Or are all 19 thingies from a progenoid all somehow all different and only 2 can be used for more progenoids?

[Conn Eremon]

Aye, the original set was. But then, the original set isn't done with the Space Marines all that involved. It's the AdMech that operates things at that stage. That could say a lot about it right there, if one wants to look at it that way.

 

Progenoids can, technically, be farmed. They tithe 5% of it to the AdMech, but I don't think the other 95% of it is used up right then and there. I rather think they store it up instead. We know the Ultramarines do, considering the whole "Don't let the 'Nids eat our gene-seed stores!" thing. They could use those stored progenoid glands to farm more. They could.

 

But why would they? What they already have and use has been shown to be enough, more than enough. For their normal duties, no matter how far from normal it is in comparison to others, the Codex dictated organization is enough, though it does allow for Chapters to go beyond that when times get particularly rough. Your logic or reasoning may lead you to believe other possibilities and you may see them as better (and I'm referring to anyone in particular with those 'you's), but it is already established that the status quo has worked perfectly fine for ten thousand years. There is no need to mix that up. The only reason behind it would be for the sake of being different. And being different for no purpose other than to be different is just boring.

[Octavulg]

Progenoids apparently benefit from experience somehow. So you could farm them, but you'll get weak, wussified progenoids. Better to have strong, mighty progenoids (which presumably produce strong, mighty Space Marines).

[Conn Eremon]

 

Progenoids apparently benefit from experience somehow. So you could farm them, but you'll get weak, wussified progenoids. Better to have strong, mighty progenoids (which presumably produce strong, mighty Space Marines).

Got a source on that? I could really use it for one of my eventual DIYs.

[Mogsam]

This forum always seems so aggressive

[Octavulg]

Cormac

 

Not off the top of my head, no. Sorry.

 

* * *

 

Mogsam

I have a maths based degree, it's the context that makes the variables wrong. Most chapters field a company at a time, so 100 marines. Then the fluff suggests they go up against planets and suppress planetwide rebellion etc, they fight nids, they fight mass Orc waaaaaghs. A casualty rate so low makes no sense whatsoever.

First, chapters field forces of larger than and smaller than company strength all the time (look at the deployments in C:SM 3e).

 

Second, a planetwide rebellion is not fought all at once. It is fought piece by piece (both in a tactical sense and in the practical sense that you can't bring a full army to bear on a hundred guys at once).

 

Third, a battlefield casualty isn't necessarily a death. Unconscious, badly wounded, power armor wrecked - being out of the game doesn't mean you're dead, or even out of the next game.

 

In any case, a casualty rate so high that they're replacing the entire chapter inside a decade or two doesn't make much sense either. Space Marines have a low casualty rate. Learn to live with this.

Anyway if you want to get down to maths then add up the marines in a company. Someone has to drive the tanks. They're over a 1000 based n the codex.

They're over the Codex based on the fact that the Chapter Master isn't part of the first company before you even have to get into other such questions. The revelation that a chapter is bigger than a thousand Marines is not a new one.

[Disruptor_fe404]

It's a silly discussion. If you play a game do you have 2% casualties? No you don't. The fluff doesn't match the rules so you have to assume that there's a higher recruitment level.

 

Or, the fluff doesn't match the rules and you have to assume that there's a lower casualty rate.

[CantonWC]

Great discussion so far guys. I hope I can jump in with more detailed commentary on everything thus far at a more convenient time.

 

 

Progenoids apparently benefit from experience somehow. So you could farm them, but you'll get weak, wussified progenoids. Better to have strong, mighty progenoids (which presumably produce strong, mighty Space Marines).

 

This is something that I have a serious problem with. I recall reading very clearly that progenoids can be removed at any time once they are ready for removal. But I seem to remember it being implied somewhere that progenoids can be "stimulated" by the activities of the Marine.

 

In pretty much every Black Library novel I've read thus far, the progenoids are only removed when the Astartes is dead/dying, presumably because it's more dramatic that way. But gene-seed being as precious as it is, wouldn't Astartes want to have their progenoids removed as soon as they are viable? Considering the various unpleasant ways an Astartes can meet his end on the battlefield that would completely ruin gene-seed viability (plasma beam, melta blast, Tyranid bio-acid etc.).

 

Tell me something, if an enemy really hates the Space Marines and/or is "genre savvy" enough to specifically aim for and destroy the progenoids of dead Astartes, what do you suppose is going to happen?

[Gripharius]

 

This forum always seems so aggressive

SHUT YER FACE OR I'LL CRUSH YER HEAD!!!!!!

[exetus]

Which stil doesn't explain why they don't just farm progenoids from non-marines like chapter serfs. Problem solved.

 

Probably a honor thing, but then again, the original set was cultivated in criminals/slaves.

 

 

 

And technicly, am I wrong?

 

1 progenoid gland yields materals for all organs of a new marine. INCLUDING progenoids. Where does he get them from otherwise?

 

You think that all the material will be immediately used to create organs for more space marines, but I'm not talking about that. I'm talkign about using it ONLY for more progenoids. Farming.

Or are all 19 thingies from a progenoid all somehow all different and only 2 can be used for more progenoids?

 

To the last question:  Yes.

 

The Progenoid Gland has the genetic data for the specific 19 implants for a Space Marine and are used in juncunction with genetic material from that initiate's own body to reduce the risk of rejection.  You cannot create Progenoid Glands from the Sus-an Membrane or the Betchers Gland or the Preomenor or the Ossmodula or the Biscopea or the Larraman's Organ.  Those are simply grown from the combined genetic material of the provided Progenoid and the initiate.

 

The Progenoid only has the genetic data for each of those specific implants... all 19 (and the second Progenoid Gland).

 

That doesn't mean that you CAN'T farm progenoids, but they contain a slowly (extremely) mutating record of every individual who ever had them.  You go from imparting the strength and genetic awesomeness of a Space Marine to his future battle brothers to imparting nothing at all from vat-grown biologicals.  In some cases, the record of who each progenoid came from are also kept... I doubt that they would like to have their prdecessors as Capt Badass, Veteran Sergeant Killemall, Captain Destroy, Brother Awesome and then Subject 4412, Subject 11823, Subject 88127.