Space Marine Chapters and Their Workings

[Octavulg]

Some Different Rates of Replacement

Which rate of replacement (Z) is correct? I dunno. C:SM 3e also mentions how the progenoid will have matured by the time the Marines finish their time in the Scout Company, which'd take five years.

 

XY=Z

If Space Marines can replace 60 men per year, rate of replacement per day is 0.000164.

Z = 0.000164. X is death rate per day, Y is the proportion of time the Marines spend in combat (remember: transit time).

If X = 0.000192 (modern military casualty rates - remember, I'm using them as Marine DEATH rates). Y would equal 0.854 - Marines could spend about 85% of the year engaged in combat (the rest being transit time, training, etc).

If Marines spend half their time in combat (Y = 0.50), they could support a casualty rate of 0.0328% (X=0.000328). The Chapter would lose one Marine for every three days the entire Chapter was in combat.

If Marines spent 75% of their time in combat (Y = 0.75), they could support a casualty rate of 0.219% (X=0.000219). They'd lose one Marine every 4.5 days.

 

If Space Marines replace 100 men per year, rate of replacement per day is 0.000274.

Z = 0.000274

X = 0.000192 (modern military casualty rates - remember, I'm using them as Marine DEATH rates). Y would equal 1.43. Marines would need to spend 143% of their time in combat in order to lose as many guys as their recruitment was offering. This seems unlikely.

If Marines spend half their time in combat (Y = 0.50), they could support a casualty rate of 0.0548% (X=0.000548). They'd lose a Marine every 1.8 days.

If Marines spent 75% of their time in combat (Y = 0.75), they could support a casualty rate of 0.0365% (X=0.000365). They'd lose a Marine every 2.74 days.

 

EDIT:

 

Original case study was wrong (misplaced a zero). Removed.

[TrashMan]

 

 

But why would they? What they already have and use has been shown to be enough, more than enough. For their normal duties, no matter how far from normal it is in comparison to others, the Codex dictated organization is enough, though it does allow for Chapters to go beyond that when times get particularly rough. Your logic or reasoning may lead you to believe other possibilities and you may see them as better (and I'm referring to anyone in particular with those 'you's), but it is already established that the status quo has worked perfectly fine for ten thousand years. There is no need to mix that up. The only reason behind it would be for the sake of being different. And being different for no purpose other than to be different is just boring.

 

If battle-losses ruin a chapter beyond point of recovery, then Id say that the established procedure works.

A Chapter should be able to reform/regrow even if only a dozen marines are left.

 

 

[TrashMan]

The Progenoid Gland has the genetic data for the specific 19 implants for a Space Marine and are used in juncunction with genetic material from that initiate's own body to reduce the risk of rejection.  You cannot create Progenoid Glands from the Sus-an Membrane or the Betchers Gland or the Preomenor or the Ossmodula or the Biscopea or the Larraman's Organ.  Those are simply grown from the combined genetic material of the provided Progenoid and the initiate.

 

The Progenoid only has the genetic data for each of those specific implants... all 19 (and the second Progenoid Gland).

 

That doesn't mean that you CAN'T farm progenoids, but they contain a slowly (extremely) mutating record of every individual who ever had them.  You go from imparting the strength and genetic awesomeness of a Space Marine to his future battle brothers to imparting nothing at all from vat-grown biologicals.  In some cases, the record of who each progenoid came from are also kept... I doubt that they would like to have their prdecessors as Capt Badass, Veteran Sergeant Killemall, Captain Destroy, Brother Awesome and then Subject 4412, Subject 11823, Subject 88127.

 

Any links to confirm that?

Either the progenoid gland produces 19 "seeds" which are basicly like stem cells and can be used to create any of the 19 organs, or they produce 19 different "seeds".

 

Also we already know the inital glands are all grown in slaves. So there's already some "taininting" right there.

 

Either way, I really don't see nothing that can stop a SM chapter from farming gene-seed, one way or another. It just seems they choose not to.

[Lysimachus]

 

Either the progenoid gland produces 19 "seeds" which are basicly like stem cells and can be used to create any of the 19 organs, or they produce 19 different "seeds".

 

Each progenoid produces 19 different seeds, each one used to form the implanted organs that make a Marine. One of those 19 is actually 2 in 1, the new progenoids which will each eventually be removed to create another 19 different seeds.

 

 

Either way, I really don't see nothing that can stop a SM chapter from farming gene-seed, one way or another. It just seems they choose not to.

 

I think it's accepted that a Chapter doesn't have the same expertise/resources as the AdMech to perfectly replicate the geneseed. But you're right that they could do it given the right equipment/training, but one of the biggest reasons for why they don't is tradition. It's worked as it is for thousands of years, so you keep doing it.

[Octavulg]

A Case Study

Since I did the math wrong the first time...

Examples of Marines on typical duty are a little rare. Brothers of the Snake provides one, though - the Tactical Squad's initial deployment would seem like a decent example of the sort of thing Marines would get up to. I'm not wholly comfortable with it - this IS the book where a phalanx is an effective formation against a swarm of Orks - but it's what we have.

An Iron Snakes tactical squad, deployed for ten years, lost three members. Let's assume they're a typical squad on a typical assignment. Three guys in ten years is a 0.00822% (XY=0.0000822) casualty rate per day, assuming they're constantly in battle. If they're not constantly in battle, the rate would be higher - what percentage of time they spend in battle is a good question.

If they spent 25% of their time in battle, X would equal 0.000328 - a 0.0328% loss rate. That'd mean that if the entire chapter engaged in a "normal" battle, they'd lose one Marine every three days of battle. This sounds kinda low - except it's double the casualty rate of a modern military. If you really think Marines in power armor get killed at a massively faster rate than modern soldiers get wounded, I suppose that's your business. But in that case, how the hell are there any Guardsmen LEFT? At such casualty rates, the chapter could spend a maximum of half its time in battle before it started depleting its numbers.

Another possibility, is that Damocles' Marines only spent about 10% of their time in battle, which'd give you an X of 0.000822. The whole chapter loses a Marine every 1.21 days. This'd mean that a massive deployment like the Eye of Terror campaign or the Armageddon War would deplete chapters for several years. Which kind of makes sense, really.

The numbers for the bigger battle are less useful. The Iron Snakes deployed three hundred and lost 61. This took them maybe a week (also, it took them 19 days to get there, vaguely suggesting about 20% of time spent in combat). That's a 0.0286 loss rate. That'd require the chapter to spend no more than 0.5% of their time in combat (if they get about 60 new recruits per year). Then again, it *was* a disastrous defeat. Still, it doesn't seem the sort of thing one can generalize from.

[Leonaides]

 

 

Either the progenoid gland produces 19 "seeds" which are basicly like stem cells and can be used to create any of the 19 organs, or they produce 19 different "seeds".

 

Each progenoid produces 19 different seeds, each one used to form the implanted organs that make a Marine. One of those 19 is actually 2 in 1, the new progenoids which will each eventually be removed to create another 19 different seeds.

 

> 

Either way, I really don't see nothing that can stop a SM chapter from farming gene-seed, one way or another. It just seems they choose not to.

 

I think it's accepted that a Chapter doesn't have the same expertise/resources as the AdMech to perfectly replicate the geneseed. But you're right that they could do it given the right equipment/training, but one of the biggest reasons for why they don't is tradition. It's worked as it is for thousands of years, so you keep doing it.

 

You're also thinking about geneseed as a simply mechanic for creating new marines. It is not - its the holy of holies, blood and flesh of the primarch and decended of the Emperor. For a RL example - maybe imagine explaining to the Knights Templar during the crusades that if they were to hand over their fragment of the True Cross that you could splice it into a living tree, grow it, take cuttings, grow more, take more cuttings and then give them back hundreds of fragments of the True Cross.

 

Essentially we live in a secular(ish) society where the kind of reverence that marines have just does not exist, and we are treating a mystical thing as a purely modern normal mechanical process.

[Heru]

But in that case, how the hell are there any Guardsmen LEFT?

"The life expectancy of a replacement guardsman at the front lines is calculated at fifteen hours." - Fifteen Hours from Black Library

[Lysimachus]

 

You're also thinking about geneseed as a simply mechanic for creating new marines. It is not - its the holy of holies, blood and flesh of the primarch and decended of the Emperor. For a RL example - maybe imagine explaining to the Knights Templar during the crusades that if they were to hand over their fragment of the True Cross that you could splice it into a living tree, grow it, take cuttings, grow more, take more cuttings and then give them back hundreds of fragments of the True Cross.

 

Essentially we live in a secular(ish) society where the kind of reverence that marines have just does not exist, and we are treating a mystical thing as a purely modern normal mechanical process.

 

No argument here. As I said, the key reason for not mass producing it is 'tradition'. By that I should have been clearer that I meant (or at least included) the quasi-religious view they have of it.

 

Having said that, the mass replication is obviously still done with a sizeable amount of pomp and ceremony (the AdMech are just as ignorant and superstitious as the rest of the Imperium in many ways). Furthermore, if the Astartes in general felt that their Primarch's seed was being disrespected by being replicated, they'd refuse to provide a tithe en masse. In such a situation, the Imperium would be hard pressed to make them hand it over.

[Octavulg]

"The life expectancy of a replacement guardsman at the front lines is calculated at fifteen hours." - Fifteen Hours from Black Library

Rather contradicted by the existence of veterans and the way there's an Imperium left. Black Library hyperbole is fun, but it's hyperbole. Also, in that case it's specific hyperbole - I don't think it's meant to apply outside that specific warzone.

[XKhalilX]

well there is/was an Ultramarines tactical squad (cant recall which company) that is nicknamed "The Immortals" because they have not had a single casualty in the squad for over 200 years. but given the honorific title of the squad, this is a rarity.

[Octavulg]

Still. Suggests that Marines dropping like flies is uncommon.

[exetus]

 

Any links to confirm that?

Either the progenoid gland produces 19 "seeds" which are basicly like stem cells and can be used to create any of the 19 organs, or they produce 19 different "seeds".

 

Also we already know the inital glands are all grown in slaves. So there's already some "taininting" right there.

 

Either way, I really don't see nothing that can stop a SM chapter from farming gene-seed, one way or another. It just seems they choose not to.

 

 I can't link to a White Dwarf or the collected versions, but it's at least specifically mentioned in an Index Astartes article titled "Rites of Initiation - The Creation of a Space Marine" in US White Dwarf #248/UK White Dwarf #249.

 

Additionally, in the current Codex: Space Marines :

 

 

Codex:  Space Marines pg11

Progenoids - The Gene-seeds

Every Space Marine has these organs, one implanted in the neck and another in the chest.  The organs respond to the presence of other implants in the body by creating germ cells corresponding to those implants.  These germ cells grow and are stored in the progenoid organs.  Mature progenoid organs can be removed and new implants artificially cultured from them.  This is the only way new implants can be created, so a Chapted depends upon its Space Marines to create other Space Marines.

 

That's pretty specific.

 

As to this:

 

Also we already know the inital glands are all grown in slaves. So there's already some "taininting" right there.

 

The very first progenoids must have been vat created, but no, the initials are no longer created in a vat.  The geneseed tithe that goes to the Adeptus mechanicus is 5% of a Chapter's genetic material.  That's 50 pairs (in a full strength Chapter) of progenoids each year from every Space Marine Chapter.  What does that mean?  Every year, the Adeptus Mechanicus receives (theoretically) 50,000 progenoid pairs for purity testing and storage for the creation of future Foundings.

[Leonaides]

Point of order - that tithe is not necessarily 5% of the total for the chapter - it might simply be 5% of the geneseed in their storage facility (so for example, it they have had light casualties then there might only be 50 pairs of geneseed in the chapter stores, of which 5% would be 2 or 3). Tho personally I suspect that most chapters have a few repositories 'just in case' so maybe a couple of hundred implant sets ready to go at any one time.

[exetus]

You are correct, Leonaides, I misspoke - it's 5% of their geneseed stock.

[Gripharius]

- this IS the book where a phalanx is an effective formation against a swarm of Orks -

was it a phalanx? I do not recall the formation in Brothers of the Snake being a "phalanx" at all. I remember it as just a defensive line with shields up. The traditional phalanx has four sides of shields and even shields held up overhead, but the Iron Snakes just had a line with shields facing one way.I specifically remember wondering why the hordes upon hordes of Orks just didn't go around the ends of the shield line. A phalanx would have been a little more believable, at least.

[Octavulg]

Four sides? Everything I've ever read says two...

 

I thought it was at least two ranks deep and close packed in BotS. Could be wrong. Though the difference between a few ranks of pikemen and a phalanx is rather academic at best.

[TrashMan]

 

 

The very first progenoids must have been vat created, but no, the initials are no longer created in a vat.  The geneseed tithe that goes to the Adeptus mechanicus is 5% of a Chapter's genetic material.  That's 50 pairs (in a full strength Chapter) of progenoids each year from every Space Marine Chapter.  What does that mean?  Every year, the Adeptus Mechanicus receives (theoretically) 50,000 progenoid pairs for purity testing and storage for the creation of future Foundings.

 

 

Any proof to confirm that.

 

I know the AdMech has stores of gene-seed from tithes, but since they use it for testing and guard it, that doesnt' mean they use all of it to create a new chapter. After all, their gene-seed comes from different chapters with slight differences.

 

And while there is a level of spirituality and reverence to the gene-seed, it's all in the approach and justfication. Word in in a smart way and  creating mroe gene-seed by a "farming" technique can be just as "spiritual" as not doing it.

 

Also, 50 progenoid pairs each year? That's way too much given the rate at which mariens are replaced.

[Gripharius]

Four sides? Everything I've ever read says two...I thought it was at least two ranks deep and close packed in BotS. Could be wrong. Though the difference between a few ranks of pikemen and a phalanx is rather academic at best.

You are correct. I was thinking about the Roman "Tortoise" formation with shields all around and on top.

 

I still tend to think of a phalanx as a rectangular formation rather than a simple shield wall form as described in BotS, though.

[Octavulg]

TrashMan

"A new Chapter cannot be founded overnight. A single suitable gene-seed must be selected for each zygote. Zygotes are then grown in culture and implanted into human test-slaves. These test-slaves must be biologically compatible and free from mutation. Test-slaves spend their entire lives bound in static experimental capsules. Although conscious, they are completely immobile, serving as little more than mediums within which the various zygotes can develop. From the original slave come two progenoids, which are implanted within two more slaves, from which come four progenoids and so on. It takes about 55 years of constant reproduction to produce 1,000 healthy sets of organs. These must be officially sanctioned by the Master of Adeptus Mechanicus and then by the High Lords of Terra speaking for the Emperor. Only the Emperor can give permission for the creation of a new Chapter." - page 6, Index Astartes I.

The first progenoids must have been vat created because there weren't Space Marines until the first progenoids were created.

Also, "very few Chapters possess all nineteen implants". I must remember to go through and edit all my IAs accordingly.

* * *

Gripharius

It is just a single line in the book, though, so it's not a phalanx. So we both got to be wrong about something!

[soddinnutter]

Only on B&C would people argue maths about a universe where religious extremists fight deamons with light sabers in the name of a comatose psychic who eats peoples brains.

[Octavulg]

That better be awe, wonder and joy in your voice.

[Gripharius]

Light sabers? This ain't Battlestar Galactica, Captain Kirk.

[soddinnutter]

Eisenhorn stated out with a power-sword without a core. It sounded like it looked like a light-saber.

[Conn Eremon]

There are 40k lightsabers. They're described as a different flavor of power swords. Eisenhorn has/had one. But older fluff described power swords as being bladeless, nothing but a core with energy surrounding it, described and shown in art as essentially lightsabers.

 

EDIT: Ninja'd. I hate you soddinnutter.

[Gripharius]

I think I knew that, but I buried it deep in the back of my mind and tried to pretend it didn't exist. The mental equivalent of putting my fingers in my ears and yelling "la-la-la-la-la" as loud as possible.